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Old Today, 04:32 PM   #2081
Crunkus
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
People are being intentionally insulting by using phrases that are not insulting? That makes as much sense as your claim that Atheism is not a belief system but it is a belief system.
Phrases and words can be used with a variety of intents.

I guess I'm being controversial suggesting this? *shrug*

I have never claimed atheism is a belief system. I've attempted to explain this a number of different ways, others have stepped in as well, you just keep repeating the same sentence. I can understand when you persist under your original understanding how much of what I say is contradictory.
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Old Today, 04:37 PM   #2082
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Originally Posted by Egg View Post
There are many kinds of religious discussions from many different angles. I'm trying to understand what you mean. How do you understand Weinberg's point about "good people" doing evil things?
What made normal people engage in the nonsense of the Salem witch trials?

What makes people campaign against SSM?

What is it that inspires protests against common or garden family planning?

What is it that inspires people to campaign against sex education in schools?

What is it that inspires people to campaign for the teaching of creationism in science class?

What is it that inspires people to fly aircraft into buildings?

What is it that inspires people to walk into theatres and kill everyone in sight?

Surely it is godless atheism, right?
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Old Today, 05:00 PM   #2083
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
I noticed that right away. Hell of it is, I agree with a lot of what he says; yet, the slightest hint of anything other than unconditional approval draws accusations of insulting behavior. I just don't get it.

This signature is intended to irritate people.
I'm not sure what the relevance of this post is to the topic at hand. I feel compelled to answer it, but it's one of many simply discussing me...and ideas I do not actually hold being attributed to me.

I've been specific about what I find insulting and why. That has been ignored and replaced with ridiculous reasons to be insulted. I can get no one willing to engage in why I say I'm under the impression certain things are insulting, only reasons they decide to impose on me that are simplistic to disagree with. As they've been talking about it more than me, that's the prevailing feeling.

What's never happened once is someone correcting any mistaken impression I had by coming out and telling me that they meant no offense and were sorry that I took that the wrong way. Instead, it's been doubled down as something else to complain about. This doesn't dispel my understanding of intent.

I believe you might be primarily concerned with one particular moment when I reacted to something you had said after basically being set upon from multiple angles for a while. I began to associate it more broadly with tolerated behaviour, and probably was a bit too harsh with you for offering a reasonable suggestion about post length.

At some point though, you might want to try to contextualize that a wee bit.

If the best you've honestly come up with is that I conjure up insults from people out of the aether because they disagree with me...I don't know what to say. You're entitled to your honest best read of the situation, but it's ridiculously far off the mark if testimony of the person you are analyzing has any impact whatsoever on your read.

What we're talking about right now was the words "flinging insults" being directed at someone not flinging them at me...but pretty unabashedly ridiculing theistic belief and the reasoning the underlies it. If he wants to honestly say that he doesn't mean to demean the decision to believe in a god by those comments, that's fine. I'm guessing he feels justified in doing so and the words carry the effect that was intended. Others reacted to it making it about an ongoing narrative that people feel the need to continue. Myself, I was mostly concerned about the incongruity of lambasting a position as delusional, while being unable to articulate what obvious wrongness about the position they are collectively ignoring. That's where my comments were concentrated on, but it yielded many irrelevant posts simply choosing to seize upon the fact that the word "insults" was contained within the post...irrespective of context, and forced the tired narrative on the situation and felt compelled to comment further. I continue to correct mistakes about what I have said and believe. If people seem hellbent on ignoring those beliefs and feeding their preferred narrative, that's up to them. But it isn't because I haven't been clear on the subject and given them reason to doubt this interpretation of what I myself intend to communicate and believe.

I deny the narrative, and say it is likely based on adversarial posturing in many cases and in others on simple misunderstanding.

You can embrace the more negative interpretation, or you can entertain the possibility your impression was incorrect. I mean, wouldn't that be nice?

Personally, there's a hell of a lot of negativity flowing from some of you, and it seems odd to me that you deny it's there and see more flowing from my direction. If you think I'm picking up a bit more than is intended, I'd be inclined to agree that's likely. It often happens after dealing with a fair amount of negativity in a new place with multiple people appearing to tolerate it. I'm willing to accept anyone who wants to simply tell me that any such interpretation is horrifying to them, and they'd never intend such a thing. Instead, I get more arguments usually about how it's simultaneously justified, not something that the forum is supposed to insulate anyone from, and not happening. This seems a simple situation to clear up. Someone feels insulted, correct the impression. But the latest string of posts has nothing to do with me being insulted. It's people simply reacting to me posting the word "insulting" and connecting to an ongoing narrative of their design (derailing from the actual point of the original post).

I can only say I just wish we could actually stop discussing this and start discussing ideas. I won't apologize for continuing to offer a correction to a narrative ABOUT me that has nothing to do with who I am or what I'm intending to convey.

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Old Today, 05:07 PM   #2084
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
What made normal people engage in the nonsense of the Salem witch trials?

What makes people campaign against SSM?

What is it that inspires protests against common or garden family planning?

What is it that inspires people to campaign against sex education in schools?

What is it that inspires people to campaign for the teaching of creationism in science class?

What is it that inspires people to fly aircraft into buildings?

What is it that inspires people to walk into theatres and kill everyone in sight?

Surely it is godless atheism, right?
What is it that inspires the Soviet Union to brutally crack down on religious.

What is it that inspires the Soviets to shoot 73,000 orthodox priests.

What is it that inspires North Koreans to machine gun Christians

What is it that inspires the killing fields.

What is it that inspires atheist states to suppress religion

What is it that inspires atheists to not understand the parallel between this post and the post quoted above.
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Old Today, 05:10 PM   #2085
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
What is it that inspires the Soviet Union to brutally crack down on religious.

What is it that inspires the Soviets to shoot 73,000 orthodox priests.

What is it that inspires North Koreans to machine gun Christians

What is it that inspires the killing fields.

What is it that inspires atheist states to suppress religion

What is it that inspires atheists to not understand the parallel between this post and the post quoted above.

Well certainly not the absence of belief in gods.
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Old Today, 05:11 PM   #2086
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(I apologize for the double post, that was not intended.)

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Old Today, 05:12 PM   #2087
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
What made normal people engage in the nonsense of the Salem witch trials?

What makes people campaign against SSM?

What is it that inspires protests against common or garden family planning?

What is it that inspires people to campaign against sex education in schools?

What is it that inspires people to campaign for the teaching of creationism in science class?

What is it that inspires people to fly aircraft into buildings?

What is it that inspires people to walk into theatres and kill everyone in sight?

Surely it is godless atheism, right?
Well certainly not the belief in God
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Old Today, 05:17 PM   #2088
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
What is it that inspires the Soviet Union to brutally crack down on religious.
Political expedience. Stalin was an ego gone mad.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
What is it that inspires the Soviets to shoot 73,000 orthodox priests.
Political ideology let loose.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
What is it that inspires North Koreans to machine gun Christians
Political ideology.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
What is it that inspires the killing fields.
Political ideology.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
What is it that inspires atheist states to suppress religion
Ask Sweden. That is so naive.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
What is it that inspires atheists to not understand the parallel between this post and the post quoted above.
Reality.
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Old Today, 05:21 PM   #2089
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
What made normal people engage in the nonsense of the Salem witch trials?

What makes people campaign against SSM?

What is it that inspires protests against common or garden family planning?

What is it that inspires people to campaign against sex education in schools?

What is it that inspires people to campaign for the teaching of creationism in science class?

What is it that inspires people to fly aircraft into buildings?

What is it that inspires people to walk into theatres and kill everyone in sight?
Wouldn't life be easier there was one obvious, simple answer that covered all the questions? I don't see how a critical approach allows for that.

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Surely it is godless atheism, right?
Is this addressing something I said or are you just suggesting "theism" is the magic bullet answer?
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Old Today, 05:23 PM   #2090
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Political expedience. Stalin was an ego gone mad.

Political ideology let loose.

Political ideology.

Political ideology.

Ask Sweden. That is so naive.

Reality.
Reality? No, not at all.
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Old Today, 05:25 PM   #2091
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Originally Posted by Egg View Post
There are many kinds of religious discussions from many different angles. I'm trying to understand what you mean. How do you understand Weinberg's point about "good people" doing evil things?
Pretty clearly. How do you not understand it?
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Old Today, 05:28 PM   #2092
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Pretty clearly. How do you not understand it?
I explained the way I understood it. If you think I'm wrong, then I'm listening.
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Old Today, 05:29 PM   #2093
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Originally Posted by Crunkus View Post
Phrases and words can be used with a variety of intents.

I guess I'm being controversial suggesting this? *shrug*
Well, either the phrases and words are insulting, or they are not. You have said that they are and that they are not. Both cannot be true here.

Quote:
I have never claimed atheism is a belief system. I've attempted to explain this a number of different ways, others have stepped in as well, you just keep repeating the same sentence. I can understand when you persist under your original understanding how much of what I say is contradictory.
We cannot have "atheistic belief systems" if atheism has no belief system. If you persist in using language which contradicts your own terms, people will find it contradictory.
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Old Today, 05:32 PM   #2094
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Originally Posted by Egg View Post
I explained the way I understood it. If you think I'm wrong, then I'm listening.
Did you read the link on a Catholic idea of "good"? Does that fit your understanding of some college kids who weren't intending malice, but did it anyway?
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Old Today, 05:37 PM   #2095
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Did you read the link on a Catholic idea of "good"? Does that fit your understanding of some college kids who weren't intending malice, but did it anyway?
That link was meant to make your meaning clearer?
Your objection is that Milgram's subjects were not good people?
Then what is your take on Weinberg's quote?
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Old Today, 06:21 PM   #2096
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Originally Posted by Egg View Post
That link was meant to make your meaning clearer?
Your objection is that Milgram's subjects were not good people?
Then what is your take on Weinberg's quote?
The link was meant to illustrate a religious idea of good, which you seem to be struggling with. My take on Weinberg's quote, as I have already explained, is that when he used the terms "good" and "evil", he was using them as the majority in his (and my) country would use them in a discussion on religion, as religious terms. 'Good people' has a deeper meaning than "well-intentioned" and "not acting under malice", just as "do[ing] evil" has more significance than 'did one bad thing because a person in authority told them to'.
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Old Today, 06:37 PM   #2097
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Originally Posted by Egg View Post
Wouldn't life be easier there was one obvious, simple answer that covered all the questions? I don't see how a critical approach allows for that.
That is what religion does. And religion rejects any criticism.


Originally Posted by Egg View Post
Is this addressing something I said or are you just suggesting "theism" is the magic bullet answer?
Nope. It is illustrating the inevitable end goal of theism. Theism in all it's forms claims to actually be that magic bullet, even though it is entirely imaginary.

You seem content with such a state of affairs.
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Old Today, 06:38 PM   #2098
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Reality? No, not at all.
Really? Is god real?
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Old Today, 06:44 PM   #2099
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well certainly not the belief in God
No, That would be the holocaust, Spanish Inquisition, The Crusades, The Salem Witch Trials... (Assorted emotes here)
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Old Today, 06:44 PM   #2100
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Really? Is god real?
As real as your attempt to ignore the effects of atheism.
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Old Today, 06:45 PM   #2101
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
As real as your attempt to ignore the effects of atheism.
You are unable to state if your god is real or not? Why?
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Old Today, 06:51 PM   #2102
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You are unable to state if your god is real or not? Why?
Of course God is real, what a silly and desperate attempt to derail the thread.

Now the topic of the thread is the effect of atheism.
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Old Today, 06:52 PM   #2103
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http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html
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Old Today, 07:36 PM   #2104
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post

Nice link Nay_Sayer.

The enormous scale of killings in the name of religion is staggering.
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Old Today, 07:38 PM   #2105
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Nice link Nay_Sayer.

The enormous scale of killings in the name of religion is staggering.
Stalin called that a Tuesday.

And you don't even have to go back a Millenium.
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Old Today, 07:49 PM   #2106
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Stalin called that a Tuesday.

And you don't even have to go back a Millenium.
.k
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Old Today, 07:51 PM   #2107
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Nice link Nay_Sayer.

The enormous scale of killings in the name of religion is staggering.
It continues to this day in Africa and other similar third world countries polluted by Christian missionaries despite TBD's heavy use of bait.
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Old Today, 08:10 PM   #2108
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Stalin called that a Tuesday.

And you don't even have to go back a Millenium.

My you are a persistent devil.

No matter how many times it is pointed out to you that although Stalin was an atheist his motivation was not as a result of his lack of belief in gods. You have been asked to provide evidence of some atheist doctrine supporting your stance and we are still waiting. There are volumes of evidence in your sacred scriptures supporting killing for a range of reasons.
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Old Today, 08:18 PM   #2109
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
My you are a persistent devil.

No matter how many times it is pointed out to you that although Stalin was an atheist his motivation was not as a result of his lack of belief in gods. You have been asked to provide evidence of some atheist doctrine supporting your stance and we are still waiting. There are volumes of evidence in your sacred scriptures supporting killing for a range of reasons.
Already did, at length.

It is called gosateizm.

I have explained it a dozen times. 20 million denials.
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Old Today, 08:19 PM   #2110
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
The link was meant to illustrate a religious idea of good, which you seem to be struggling with. My take on Weinberg's quote, as I have already explained, is that when he used the terms "good" and "evil", he was using them as the majority in his (and my) country would use them in a discussion on religion, as religious terms. 'Good people' has a deeper meaning than "well-intentioned" and "not acting under malice", just as "do[ing] evil" has more significance than 'did one bad thing because a person in authority told them to'.
Okay, so in your view, why does Weinberg call them "good people" if they are doing evil?
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Old Today, 08:32 PM   #2111
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Already did, at length.

It is called gosateizm.

I have explained it a dozen times. 20 million denials.

Nope, still doesn't Google. Did you make this word up?

20 million denials, wow.
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Old Today, 08:42 PM   #2112
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Nope, still doesn't Google. Did you make this word up?

20 million denials, wow.
The Soviet Union used it, It's interchangeable with the term State Atheism which not too coincidently it's also mutually tied with anti-clericalism, which opposes religious institutional power and if you're a dictator you'd obviously want all the power for yourself alone.

Now let's see if there are any notable Cambodian dictators...well hey, Pol Pot of the Khmer Rouge... What are the odds
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Old Today, 08:43 PM   #2113
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Nope, still doesn't Google. Did you make this word up?

20 million denials, wow.
Doesn't Google. International does not Google forum dot com

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

Doesn't Google.

Smfh

Good night everyone.
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Old Today, 08:46 PM   #2114
Crunkus
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Well, either the phrases and words are insulting, or they are not.
Language doesn't work that way. I'm not sure what else to tell you.

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You have said that they are and that they are not. Both cannot be true here.
That's factually not what I said. I said words and phrases mean different things depending on how you use them. It's not that complicated. We seem to be at an impasse.

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
We cannot have "atheistic belief systems" if atheism has no belief system. If you persist in using language which contradicts your own terms, people will find it contradictory.
You find it contradictory. That doesn't mean everybody will. It's been explained to you by more than one person. At a certain point maybe your attitude will change and you'll actually learn something from one of these online discussions. But I'm sort of done arguing with you about something this inane.
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Old Today, 08:52 PM   #2115
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Doesn't Google. International does not Google forum dot com

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

Doesn't Google.

Smfh

Good night everyone.
Nope, I saw the term "State atheism" defined but nothing about gosateizm.

Good night to you too and don't forget to say your prayers.
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Old Today, 09:09 PM   #2116
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Originally Posted by Egg View Post
Okay, so in your view, why does Weinberg call them "good people" if they are doing evil?

It just goes on and on and the lack of ability to see what is so clearly pointed out, fills me with wonder. I will add my description but my hope of you getting it I think is slim.

A good person is someone who honestly believes they are doing the right thing. He/she has a good heart if you like.

If that person does something that harms others that is not a good outcome, so it is a bad thing.

Theists have a long history of doing things that have a bad outcome, because they refer to sacred texts to guide them in their actions. These sacred texts have some very bad advice in them.

The theist, with the good heart, thinks he/she is doing the good thing however because they believe the sacred texts tell the truth. Got it now?
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Old Today, 09:23 PM   #2117
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
It just goes on and on and the lack of ability to see what is so clearly pointed out, fills me with wonder. I will add my description but my hope of you getting it I think is slim.

A good person is someone who honestly believes they are doing the right thing. He/she has a good heart if you like.

If that person does something that harms others that is not a good outcome, so it is a bad thing.

Theists have a long history of doing things that have a bad outcome, because they refer to sacred texts to guide them in their actions. These sacred texts have some very bad advice in them.

The theist, with the good heart, thinks he/she is doing the good thing however because they believe the sacred texts tell the truth. Got it now?
So you're saying they have the best intentions and are trying to do good things by following the sacred texts, except the outcome is of doing so is bad?
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Old Today, 09:49 PM   #2118
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Originally Posted by Egg View Post
So you're saying they have the best intentions and are trying to do good things by following the sacred texts, except the outcome is of doing so is bad?
Basically yes.

This is because no two people are going to interpret the texts the same way (If only the space genie could sort that out) and so you inevitably get 5 people doing 5 different things yet all citing the same holy text.

Moreover when that text tells you that if you don't do X bad things happen it gets even worse. (See http://whatstheharm.net/)
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