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Tags LGBT issues , London incidents , protest incidents , transgender issues

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Old Yesterday, 05:36 AM   #1001
sadhatter
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
No, that just means I gave a bad secondary definition. How about as a second definition: "an intersex person who self-identifies as a woman, or an adult human male whose gender identity is that of a woman."
First rule of definitions, if you have to use the word for your definition to make sense it is a bad definition. This is some grade school stuff here.

"A dog is the animal people are calling when they say 'come here dog' "

"A knife is something people need when they look fir a knife"

" a car is any car a person who likes cars has"

All of these are as useful as your definition.

A definition must explain something to someone who has not heard the concept before.
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Old Yesterday, 05:41 AM   #1002
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What simulates height, and do they make your feet deformed over time and cause the many other health problems high heels do?

If you re-read back over the exchange, by the way, you'll see that I arguing that increasing height is not the core reason why women wear high heels.
The fact you have no idea these products exist, proves my point pretty well. And yes, over the long term they do. I can think of them being mentioned in media a handful of times and in each they were treated as something to be ashamed of. ( boondocks saints, or maybe the sequel used them as a plot point. )
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Old Yesterday, 05:42 AM   #1003
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A
Originally Posted by me
The purpose of language is simply to accurately transmit the thoughts of one person into the mind of another or others.
B
Originally Posted by you
It's works both ways. Language can also be used to tell lies and to manipulate (propaganda).
I think the thing described in claim B is a "subtype" of claim A.

The lie has to be clear in the mind of person A, in order for person A to accurately transmit it into the mind of person B. Person A is just also able to also think about the thought "It's actually not true".

Quote:
I haven't seen any definition of the word"woman" that changes its meaning from being a human being belonging to the sex that is able to give birth to babies.
I think my definition # 2 does ok..."1) an adult human female 2) a person who self-identifies as having the gender identity of those of female sex"

Quote:
As for the word "gay", saying "What a gay day!" now has a different meaning to the one it had before "gay" came to also mean male homosexual.
Right, just like the trans-inclusive uses of the words man and woman, where it's referring to the strictly psychological or sociological "gender identity" of the person.

Quote:
Redefining "woman" to also mean "man" renders the word "woman" as a signifier for "adult human female" meaningless and redundant. It erases women as a distinct group of humans.
When someone uses the word "woman" in a way that's inclusive of transwomen, they're speaking a language that's kind of a distinct thing from "common English", to be completely honest. It's similar to slang, come to think of it, for example "woke". https://www.merriam-webster.com/word...meaning-origin

For all the words that address gender, the lexicographers are debating what changes, if any, to make. http://www.slate.com/articles/double...rily_mean.html

ETA: In the parlance of tans-inclusiveness, the word for adult human males is "cis-men", and the word for adult human females is "cis-woman."

Quote:
BTW: What's ignorant about calling transwomen men?
Someone being silly might argue that it demonstrates a lack of awareness of the difference between sex and gender.

Quote:
If anyone's mind were changed by anything I posted, I would regard that as a million dollar miracle!
In spite of the fact that I'm not in 100% agreement with you, you and Rolfe's posts have significantly impacted my own thinking on this topic.

Quote:
The core of narcissistic perception is the delusion that feelings are facts: I feel like a woman inside, therefore I am a woman.
To whatever extent the pink brain/blue brain stuff is scientifically valid and "real in objective reality according to modern neuroscience", most people's brains are apparently like jars filled with both pink and blue marbles.

Transpeople in general really do appear to be accurately self-diagnosing an unusual for their sex portion of pink or blue marbles. Somehow that sometimes gets processed as "I AM the other gender". A lot of times, at least, it really does seem.
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Old Yesterday, 05:50 AM   #1004
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
A


B


I think the thing described in claim B is a "subtype" of claim A.

The lie has to be clear in the mind of person A, in order for person A to accurately transmit it into the mind of person B. Person A is just also able to also think about the thought "It's actually not true".



I think my definition # 2 does ok..."1) an adult human female 2) a person who self-identifies as having the gender identity of those of female sex"



Right, just like the trans-inclusive uses of the words man and woman, where it's referring to the strictly psychological or sociological "gender identity" of the person.



When someone uses the word "woman" in a way that's inclusive of transwomen, they're speaking a language that's kind of a distinct thing from "common English", to be completely honest. It's similar to slang, come to think of it, for example "woke". https://www.merriam-webster.com/word...meaning-origin

For all the words that address gender, the lexicographers are debating what changes, if any, to make. http://www.slate.com/articles/double...rily_mean.html



Someone being silly might argue that it demonstrates a lack of awareness of the difference between sex and gender.



In spite of the fact that I'm not in 100% agreement with you, you and Rolfe's posts have significantly impacted my own thinking on this topic.



To whatever extent the pink brain/blue brain stuff is scientifically valid and "real in objective reality according to modern neuroscience", most people's brains are apparently like jars filled with both pink and blue marbles.

Transpeople in general really do appear to be accurately self-diagnosing an unusual for their sex portion of pink or blue marbles. Somehow that sometimes gets processed as "I AM the other gender". A lot of times, at least, it really does seem.
Your definition reads "anyone who wants to be is a woman" ,that is a useless definition. It's criteria are so ambiguous, and it's information so broad it does not do its job as a definition.

Essentially the same format

"A punk rocker is anyone that follows the ethos and style of punk rock. 2. Anyone who self identifies as a punk rocker"

The second part of the definition makes the first part useless. Things are defined using criteria, the broader the criteria the less useful the definition.
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Old Yesterday, 05:51 AM   #1005
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Your definition reads "anyone who wants to be is a woman" ,that is a useless definition. It's criteria are so ambiguous, and it's information so broad it does not do its job as a definition.

Essentially the same format

"A punk rocker is anyone that follows the ethos and style of punk rock. 2. Anyone who self identifies as a punk rocker"

The second part of the definition makes the first part useless. Things are defined using criteria, the broader the criteria the less useful the definition.
No, those were the proposed definitions of the word "woman", not the word "female".

eta: oh, I see what you mean, but you're just wrong.

It's common for there to be strict and loose definitions listed separately, and redundancy therein.
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Old Yesterday, 06:02 AM   #1006
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
No, those were the proposed definitions of the word "woman", not the word "female".

eta: oh, I see what you mean, but you're just wrong.

It's common for there to be strict and loose definitions listed separately, and redundancy therein.
Not when one completely invalidates the accuracy of the other. The information you are adding is making the definition worse not better.

It would be like the definition of a coin being

1. A token use to symbolize an amount in a currency. 2. Any object that represents a value in any form.

2 takes away from the accuracy of 1, nessecitating a different term for outliers otherwise things like bills ,tokens, ious ,among many other non coin items.

They are both trying to wedge a definition into something it does not encompass.
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Old Yesterday, 06:13 AM   #1007
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Not when one completely invalidates the accuracy of the other. The information you are adding is making the definition worse not better.
I'm not adding information to one definition. The second definition is a completely different use of the word.

Like adding "is homosexual" in as an additional definition of the word "gay" was not an "improvement upon" the "demonstrating happiness" definition. They're separate, totally different definitions. Might as well have been a whole new word, but that's not how the language evolved.
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Old Yesterday, 06:17 AM   #1008
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post

It would be like the definition of a coin being

1. A token use to symbolize an amount in a currency. 2. Any object that represents a value in any form.

2 takes away from the accuracy of 1, nessecitating a different term for outliers otherwise things like bills ,tokens, ious ,among many other non coin items.

They are both trying to wedge a definition into something it does not encompass.
Just look at the actual definition of the word coin:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coin
Quote:
a : a usually flat piece of metal issued by governmental authority as money
b : metal money
c : something resembling a coin especially in shape

something used as if it were money (as in verbal or intellectual exchange)
The meanings of most words are...all over the place. LOL
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Old Yesterday, 07:53 AM   #1009
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Fair enough. How about this?

1) an adult human female 2) a person who self-identifies as having the gender identity of those of female sex
What is the gender identity of those of female sex? What about all those people who don't have a gender identity? From my experience hardly anyone has a gender identity other than trans-people and people already quite caught up in the ideology.
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Old Yesterday, 08:01 AM   #1010
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What is the gender identity of those of female sex?
A vast majority of the time it's "feminine" or female, or something close.


Quote:
What about all those people who don't have a gender identity?
Then it's probably the one commonly associated with their sex.

Quote:
From my experience hardly anyone has a gender identity other than trans-people and people already quite caught up in the ideology.
I truly suspect that's kind of like American white people who feel like there's no real "white culture" here, because "we're" all so different from each other in little variant subcultures. Really, "American culture" is "white culture" in America.

Only people who have a sex and a gender at odds with one another might notice that their brains are so strikingly more like "the other sex".
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Old Yesterday, 08:09 AM   #1011
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
How many participants in this thread do you think reject the fringe "misgendering is literal violence" claim, but would agree with me that calling transwomen men is controversial, insensitive, rude, ignorant, or something like that? Do you really believe I'm the only one? If so, would a poll be useful?
Is it controversial, insensitive, rude or ignorant to tell Flat-Earthers that the Earth is round? Should we then proceed to change the definitions of the terms "flat" and "round" to pander to their beliefs?
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Old Yesterday, 08:14 AM   #1012
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
A vast majority of the time it's "feminine" or female, or something close.
Got any evidence for that? And I thought female was a sex and not a gender identity?

Besides, we're just going in circles here, we simply arrived back at:
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
2. Social ones. All the ones of the form "A woman is someone with the social status/space usually occupied with an adult human female" and variations thereupon (they're all just variations on "A woman is anyone who is feminine"). This immediately leads to results such as:

- A woman can't be a CEO.
- A man can't be a nurse.
- A man can not wear a dress.
- Men can not have long hair.
- Women can not have short hair.
- Butch lesbians aren't women.
- Effeminate gay men aren't men.
-...and so on.
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Old Yesterday, 08:14 AM   #1013
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Is it controversial, insensitive, rude or ignorant to tell Flat-Earthers that the Earth is round? Should we then proceed to change the definitions of the terms "flat" and "round" to pander to their beliefs?
Gender is influenced by social and cultural factors, whereas the Earth's shape is not.
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Old Yesterday, 08:19 AM   #1014
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Gender is influenced by social and cultural factors, whereas the Earth's shape is not.
Neither is age, sex or species which are the basis for the definitions of the terms "man" and "woman". So the answer is yes, we should proceed to change the definitions of the terms "woman" and "man" to pander to their beliefs.

Transwomen are men in the same way that the Earth is round, and changing the definitions[*] of "woman" and "man" to pander to the belief of transwomen wanting to call themselves women is no different from changing the definitions of "flat" and "round" so that Flat-Earthers can call the Earth flat.

* Still waiting for the first one that doesn't fall apart under scrutiny btw.
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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Old Yesterday, 08:24 AM   #1015
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A: "A dolphin is a spacecraft."
B: "No it isn't."
A: "That hurts my feelings, I want to believe a dolphin is a spacecraft!"
B: "Look at the definitions of dolphin and spacecraft, they are not compatible."
A: "You're just an irrational bigot, the whole world is bigoted for not going out of their way to change the definitions of dolphin and spacecraft especially so I can feel good about my belief."
B: "Well of course we don't to be seen as bigots." *proceeds to rewrite the dictionary so that dolphins are spacecraft*
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

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Old Yesterday, 08:25 AM   #1016
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Got any evidence for that?
Just the fact that most women would not meet the diagnostic criteria for this: https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-...nder-dysphoria
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Old Yesterday, 08:26 AM   #1017
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
A: "A dolphin is a spacecraft."
B: "No it isn't."
A: "That hurts my feelings, I want to believe a dolphin is a spacecraft!"
B: "Look at the definitions of dolphin and spacecraft, they are not compatible."
A: "You're just an irrational bigot, the whole world is bigoted for not going out of their way to change the definitions of dolphin and spacecraft especially so I can feel good about my belief."
B: "Well of course we don't to be seen as bigots." *proceeds to rewrite the dictionary so that dolphins are spacecraft*
Your behavior is drifting into overt trolling now.

Please don't make me put you on "mental ignore".
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Old Yesterday, 08:29 AM   #1018
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Just the fact that most women would not meet the diagnostic criteria for this: https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-...nder-dysphoria
That doesn't support that most women have a gender identity.
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Old Yesterday, 08:35 AM   #1019
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Your behavior is drifting into overt trolling now.

Please don't make me put you on "mental ignore".
You can put me on "mental ignore" all you want, the point is valid. Don't forget to change the definitions of "human", "cat", "fox", "lion", etc too while you're at it, you wouldn't want to be bigoted to this lady or these people as well.
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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Old Yesterday, 08:37 AM   #1020
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
That doesn't support that most women have a gender identity.
Well, we do, once we take a second to notice how "not correct" the notion of ourselves as guys/men/boy/whatever masculine word you wish to use is.
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Old Today, 03:28 AM   #1021
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Gender is not the same as sex.
That's "their" point.
If only it was! I see many transwomen talking about their lady brains, quoting pseudoscience, as being physically different to "cis" brains. Yet gender is not biological. It's ideas about how men and women should behave.

Quote:
What's your definition of gender?
In context of the OP: Gender defines social roles deemed appropriate for men and women according to, and enforcing, prevailing sex-based power structures


Quote:
I'm not 100% sure, and it would take a small essay for me to describe what I think is going on there with any real accuracy.

The flawed "in a nutshell" version of "gender identity of those of the female sex" is "has a gender identity which is feminine."
That looks very like a circular definition.

Does "feminine" actually have anything to do with the female sex or is it just something that is imposed on the female sex by society?


Quote:
You're back you just dogmatically asserting that the word "man" = "is a male" again, for the millionth time.
Don't blame me. Blame evolution. A male (♂) organism is the physiological sex that produces sperm.

I am asserting that men aren't women, that women don't have penises and that men don't have babies. Sorry for my "dogma". I'm aware that saying things like this may be labeled "transphobic hate crime" and put me on the wrong side of the law!

https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/...-stickerwoman/
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Old Today, 03:41 AM   #1022
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Gender is influenced by social and cultural factors, whereas the Earth's shape is not.
Gender is not influenced by social and factors. It is a social and cultural factor. It has no existence outside of that realm.
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Old Today, 04:14 AM   #1023
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Losing our marbles?

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
A


B


I think the thing described in claim B is a "subtype" of claim A.

The lie has to be clear in the mind of person A, in order for person A to accurately transmit it into the mind of person B. Person A is just also able to also think about the thought "It's actually not true".
Fair enough. In which case, the statement "Transwomen are men" may be a conscious lie.





Quote:
I think my definition # 2 does ok..."1) an adult human female 2) a person who self-identifies as having the gender identity of those of female sex"
Changing the meaning of words to suit one's ideology can have far-reaching political and social consequences.

This is particularly true when we are dealing with a subjective, undefined and amorphous concept such as "gender identity".



Quote:
Right, just like the trans-inclusive uses of the words man and woman, where it's referring to the strictly psychological or sociological "gender identity" of the person.
With a biological lady brain?

Quote:
When someone uses the word "woman" in a way that's inclusive of transwomen, they're speaking a language that's kind of a distinct thing from "common English", to be completely honest. It's similar to slang, come to think of it, for example "woke". https://www.merriam-webster.com/word...meaning-origin
Yes, it's also similar to cult language.

Wouldn't it be polite, to say the least, to ask women first if they mind having the word they use to describe themselves appropriated by men?

I don't understand why transwomen don't just call themselves transwomen. Why get rid of the 'trans" bit? Why insist (often aggressively and, dare I say it, dogmatically) on being called women?



Quote:
For all the words that address gender, the lexicographers are debating what changes, if any, to make. http://www.slate.com/articles/double...rily_mean.html

ETA: In the parlance of tans-inclusiveness, the word for adult human males is "cis-men", and the word for adult human females is "cis-woman."
Another great way of erasing women with language by making them into a sub-group of their own sex.



Quote:
Someone being silly might argue that it demonstrates a lack of awareness of the difference between sex and gender.
Hold on, I'll check with my lady brain.



Quote:
In spite of the fact that I'm not in 100% agreement with you, you and Rolfe's posts have significantly impacted my own thinking on this topic.
Hooray! A miracle!



Quote:
To whatever extent the pink brain/blue brain stuff is scientifically valid and "real in objective reality according to modern neuroscience", most people's brains are apparently like jars filled with both pink and blue marbles.
It's not scientifically valid, as far as I know, to claim that our brains are filled with pink and blue marbles. Society (and our behaviour) adds the colours. Until then they are just marbles.

Quote:
Transpeople in general really do appear to be accurately self-diagnosing an unusual for their sex portion of pink or blue marbles. Somehow that sometimes gets processed as "I AM the other gender". A lot of times, at least, it really does seem.
I disagree. A lot of women and plenty of men grow up feeling uncomfortable with their ascribed gender roles. That's not a self-diagnosis. It's a political insight into the restrictive nature of gender.
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Old Today, 04:18 AM   #1024
kellyb
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Gender is not influenced by social and factors. It is a social and cultural factor. It has no existence outside of that realm.
If you're going to say "gender is a social and cultural factor", you need to finish the thought/sentence by joining it with something like a preposition and an object.

You can't say, for example, "Obesity is a factor" without completing the thought with something like "to be considered when evaluating cardiovascular health".
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Old Today, 04:35 AM   #1025
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Changing the meaning of words according to suit one's ideology can have far-reaching political and social consequences.
OK! Now we're finally getting closer to what I consider the heart of the matter.

You do know that no one is proposing changing the meaning of the word from one thing into another, but rather just adding an additional, totally different meaning, separately, right?

Similar to how
1) Gay= happy ...and also, in generally different contexts..
2) Gay = homosexual

I DO ADMIT that it's a little different with the word woman, because when we're talking about legal rights and some social stuff that's very specific to the female sex, we'd sometimes need to use the prefix "Cis" to clarify that we're talking about females. Personally, that doesn't bother me, but I might be younger than you (I'm in my late 30s) and I'm a little uncomfortable lecturing a significantly older female feminist about how she needs to change her own usage of the word woman, even after she clearly understands WHY I hold the position on the matter which I do and simply disagrees.

I kind of feel like I'm missing something significant about what's so awful about sometimes and in certain contexts calling ourselves ciswomen.

eta:

Quote:
Wouldn't it be polite, to say the least, to ask women first if they mind having the word they use to describe themselves appropriated by men?

I don't understand why transwomen don't just call themselves transwomen. Why get rid of the 'trans" bit? Why insist (often aggressively and, dare I say it, dogmatically) on being called women?
1) yes, I guess, although it might have been female allies who started it all
2) "why" is really complicated, I suspect. I have my own theories about the normal human desire for group inclusion and self validation etc and so on, but that's a question for a transwoman who feels passionately about it, I guess. My own irl friends who are transwomen don't care how anyone else uses the word woman and just try to stay out of what they see as "drama".
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Old Today, 05:01 AM   #1026
kellyb
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Quote:
Quote:
To whatever extent the pink brain/blue brain stuff is scientifically valid and "real in objective reality according to modern neuroscience", most people's brains are apparently like jars filled with both pink and blue marbles.
It's not scientifically valid, as far as I know, to claim that our brains are filled with pink and blue marbles. Society (and our behaviour) adds the colours. Until then they are just marbles.
Here's some of the science.
It's described as "patterns", not marbles, but you get the drift.
https://www.fastcompany.com/40441920...r-female-brain
Quote:
They repeatedly find that some individual, small sections of the brain indeed show patterns that are more typical of males or more typical of females (although millions of sections show no difference at all).

However, when they look at all the sections together instead of just a small snapshot, they find only about 3% of people have a brain that is fully “male” or fully “female.” In other words, it is extremely rare to find a consistently pink brain or blue brain. The other 97% of people have brains that are a mosaic of pink and blue. Almost all of us have features common in men and features common in women.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...l-differences/

Quote:
Breakthrough research has revealed for the first time evidence that the brain activity of people who feel they inhabit the wrong body closely resembles that of the gender they want to embrace.

Analysis of around 160 participants showed that biological males with gender dysphoria - the experience of discomfort or distress due to their biological sex - had a brain structure and neurological patterns similar to biological females, and vice versa.

The analysis revealed that the distinct neurological differences are detectable during childhood.
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Old Today, 07:17 AM   #1027
Lithrael
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
That doesn't support that most women have a gender identity.
For example, I often have the feeling that performing poorly at a task will reflect badly not only on me but reinforce negative stereotypes about women. And I don't want that to happen because I feel protective of the whole general class of women as a part of it. I think that's extremely common example of female gender identity among women.

When I see an awesome woman in tech fields or sci-fi acting in a great role I get excited because I love to see the, idk, overton window of stuff-women-are-doing, pushed in that direction. I identify with them. As women. I feel like it's one of my teams.

It's different from when I see someone doing great that isn't on one of my 'identity' teams. Seeing them do well is like watching acrobats perform. I'm like 'wow nice one that's some serious core strength' but I'm not like... YES! YOU GO! OMG I AM ROOTING FOR YOU!

This may be a clumsy approach but 'you haven't shown that most people actually have gender identities' is a left field one for me :/
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