ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 26th November 2018, 06:18 PM   #281
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 17,455
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Pretty sure I've heard really racist peyote say that about folks of the wrong color in the wrong neighborhood.
You mean like that time you were in Ecuador climbing Machu Picchu and you fell and it felt like you were falling for a really long time and then you remembered you've never been to South America?
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 08:21 PM   #282
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,374
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
And you get that from where?

The Christian Bible? Read Joshua lately?
Probably etymology. Very few words have their origin in the legal system.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2018, 09:06 PM   #283
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 39,349
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Well, it is off the coast of India, but about 1,000 miles off the coast, so it's not like it was just a short hop or anything.
Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Its about 1000 miles off the coast of India and difficult to land boats at due to all the rocks and coral reefs around it. There are only a few places where you can get near the island which I guess makes it easier for the natives to defend from invaders.
They have these things called "maps".

Unless someone has knowledge of grand sailing expeditions fifty millennia ago, it's far more likely that they DID NOT sail from India. India's expansion into Southeast Asia was considerably later. There was no India when the Andaman and Nicobar Islands were settled. They are much closer to current Myanmar and depending on the tides and trade winds, also the isthmus shared by Myanmar and Thailand. Far more likely is island-hopping by island people.... Indonesia.

Human migration out of Africa started around two million years ago. Since we've got Java Man in Indonesia at about 700 thousand years ago, it's not a leap of logic to think that homo sapiens island hopped up from Indonesia, which would be the most convenient and technologically achievable route. The southernmost Nicobar island is 200 km from Aceh(of OMG! Tsunami! Run! fame). Heading up the Nicobars to the Andamans the largest gap is 150 km.

Those are not tiny gaps considering the boats and technology they must have had, but the five hundred thousand year gap allows for a lot of "sailors" never coming back but one or two or so arriving every two or three decades and then populating the islands naturally. 500,000 years allows for a lot of trial and error. The farther from existing homo sapiens settlements the longer to achieve the initial migration. In spite of numerous (largely racist) theories about Greeks or Celts being there earlier, New Zealand was apparently first settled only 700 years ago in the Polynesian Age of Exploration.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

Last edited by Foolmewunz; 26th November 2018 at 09:08 PM.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 06:52 AM   #284
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 14,986
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
They have these things called "maps".

Unless someone has knowledge of grand sailing expeditions fifty millennia ago, it's far more likely that they DID NOT sail from India. India's expansion into Southeast Asia was considerably later. There was no India when the Andaman and Nicobar Islands were settled. They are much closer to current Myanmar and depending on the tides and trade winds, also the isthmus shared by Myanmar and Thailand. Far more likely is island-hopping by island people.... Indonesia.

Human migration out of Africa started around two million years ago. Since we've got Java Man in Indonesia at about 700 thousand years ago, it's not a leap of logic to think that homo sapiens island hopped up from Indonesia, which would be the most convenient and technologically achievable route. The southernmost Nicobar island is 200 km from Aceh(of OMG! Tsunami! Run! fame). Heading up the Nicobars to the Andamans the largest gap is 150 km.

Those are not tiny gaps considering the boats and technology they must have had, but the five hundred thousand year gap allows for a lot of "sailors" never coming back but one or two or so arriving every two or three decades and then populating the islands naturally. 500,000 years allows for a lot of trial and error. The farther from existing homo sapiens settlements the longer to achieve the initial migration. In spite of numerous (largely racist) theories about Greeks or Celts being there earlier, New Zealand was apparently first settled only 700 years ago in the Polynesian Age of Exploration.
Wikipedia

Quote:
According to Chaubey and Endicott (2013), the Andaman Islands were settled less than 26,000 years ago, by people who were not direct descendants of the first migrants out of Africa.[3][note 1] According to Wang et al. (2011),

...the Andaman archipelago was likely settled by modern humans from northeast India via the land-bridge which connected the Andaman archipelago and Myanmar around the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), a scenario in well agreement with the evidence from linguistic and palaeoclimate studies.[4]

It was previously assumed that the Andaman ancestors were part of the initial Great Coastal Migration that was the first expansion of humanity out of Africa, via the Arabian peninsula, along the coastal regions of the Indian mainland and toward Southeast Asia, China, and Oceania.[5][6] The Andamese were considered to be a pristine example of a hypothesized Negrito population, which showed similar physical characteristics, and was supposed to have existed throughout southeast Asia. The existence of a specific Negrito-population is nowadays doubted. Their commonalities could be the result of evolutionary convergence and/or a shared history.[7][8]
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 07:37 AM   #285
PursuedByABear
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 119
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Peasant fishermen have no problem rowing there in their little boats.
The island is actually only 30 miles from Port Blair, a relatively modern city of 100,000 people and the capital of the Andamans. So not necessarily "peasant fishermen rowing little boats" at all.

Of course Port Blair has not been there very long at all. So while I have no problem accepting the isolation of the Sentinelese up to the early 20th century, I would not be at all surprised if in the last few decades there have been several undocumented landings on the Sentinels by local people, and what might have happened at such times would go some way to explaining the islanders' hostility to outsiders.
PursuedByABear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 09:21 AM   #286
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 39,349
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Wikipedia
I'm aware of the theory but it still doesn't explain how they got there from India. There has long been a variety of theories about early Indian settlement through Southeast Asia but it's never been proven and there is zero archaeological evidence. Whether 50,000 years ago or 25,000 years ago, they still need to solve the question of how they got there. The only currents that presently would get Indians to those islands would be actually coming around from the Indian west coast and off Sri Lanka. The more accessible points from the Bengal area have currents moving in the wrong direction.

The DNA evidence is far from conclusive and it is equally possible that the people from central India (also "out of Africa" just a different wave) made their way by land over several millennia to the lower reaches of Malaysia and thence to Indonesia. The DNA factors are shared and inconclusive.

We also don't know with any certainty the topography. Remember that not too far away there used to be a Krakatoa. And in the other direction "Adam's Bridge" existed up to a few hundred years earlier in the 15th century. There may have been more islands in the area - in either direction, thus not proving either theory. I'm just going by the existing coastal and island structures.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 01:45 PM   #287
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,845
Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
I don't know if this has already been posted. Here is an article about one of the very few people who has actually had direct contact with the tribe:
http://www.probashionline.com/madhum...jeIBhqtinwudMs
I recently saw a similar article (possibly involving someone else on one of the same missions to make contact.)

So in the past, contact was relatively peaceful, as long as those making the contact did not go ashore. Instead, if the Sentinelese were allowed to come out to the boats they would interact (and accept gifts of coconuts) with minimal threats. (And it does appear that having a woman as part of the group that makes contact might have been useful.)

Its possible that if any more parties attempt contact the tribe but didn't go ashore, they might have similar luck. (Or, its also possible that recent interactions, such as with the missionary, or the helicopters near the island, or other unauthorized contacts, might have spoiled the contacts and left the Sentinelese even more adverse to interactions than they were when contact was attempted in the 1990s.)
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 01:55 PM   #288
Lukraak_Sisser
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,229
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Human beings are wired to understand the concept of good and evil (i.e., they have freedom to choose either good or evil, and know the difference).

You are the one patronising the Sentinelise by claiming they are less than human, and understand not that killing your fellow man is wrong.

The missionary went in peace and had no weapons.
You do realize that this is total nonsense right?

There is no inherent 'right' and 'wrong' hardwired into humanity. If it were we would have no wars, no fights, not even disagreements.
What we consider 'right' in most of the west is considered 'wrong' in many parts of the world.
Heck even in a single small country we cannot agree on what is the right way.

If I walk alone, unarmed up to certain parts of rural US I could easily be shot for trespassing and with a stand your ground ruling that would be perfectly legal and right.

So, no, we have NO idea what moral code these people follow, all we really know is they wish no contact with the outside world, and most of us have by now accepted that maybe we should respect the wishes of such tribes. Though that is, as mentioned, helped by the fact that they have no known strategic resources.
Lukraak_Sisser is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 02:18 PM   #289
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 41,503
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is not just a legal term. It is also a moral term.
Musical, too.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 02:50 PM   #290
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,374
Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
You do realize that this is total nonsense right?

There is no inherent 'right' and 'wrong' hardwired into humanity. If it were we would have no wars, no fights, not even disagreements.
That doesn't actually follow.

Suppose there is inherent right and wrong hardwired into us. Does that mean that humans would only act rightly? No, of course not. We have more than one desire hardwired into us, and if those desired conflict, they cannot all be satisfied. Nothing requires that any sense of right and wrong hardwired into us always take precedence over other desires hardwired into us. So for example, if there's a hardwired desire not to steal, but you're really hungry, you might steal food. Satisfy one desire at the expense of another.

So, do we have a hardwired sense of right and wrong? There's strong evidence to suggest that we do.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ife-of-babies/
This hardwired sense appears to be quite primitive, is arguably incomplete (ie, doesn't cover all moral choices), and probably doesn't suffice to support complex social structures without additional learned behavior which is variable across societies. But it still seems to exist at some biological level.

I will however say that the level on which hardwired moral codes exist does not suffice to determine their actions in a case such as this.

Quote:
So, no, we have NO idea what moral code these people follow
It's not just their moral code that's relevant here. Their understanding of the facts is also necessary to make a judgment, and we don't know that either.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 12:49 PM   #291
Ranb
Philosopher
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 9,371
At least one politician is trying to get a few more minutes of fame using this death.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.40223b155f71
Quote:
That person is Australian Sen. Pauline Hanson, who has previously sought to ban Asians and Muslims from immigrating to her own island nation.

On Tuesday, she told the Australian Senate that the ancient tribe of North Sentinel has the right idea.

“I for one will not be condemning the Sentinelese as racist for keeping their borders closed, nor will I condemn them for their lack of diversity,” Hanson said, after introducing a motion of support for the tribe’s “zero-gross immigration policy. ”
I'm going to assume that her notion of zero tolerance is not retroactive to her own family's immigration years ago.

Kind of like her One Nation's call for the end of multiculturalism so that her own culture can continue to suppress the native one in her country.

Ranb
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 08:14 PM   #292
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 39,349
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
At least one politician is trying to get a few more minutes of fame using this death.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.40223b155f71

I'm going to assume that her notion of zero tolerance is not retroactive to her own family's immigration years ago.

Kind of like her One Nation's call for the end of multiculturalism so that her own culture can continue to suppress the native one in her country.

Ranb
If I may take the liberty of speaking for some of our Australian members, I assume that like me, one of the first thoughts to cross the mind in reading that is,

"Say! That sounds like an excellent idea, Pauline. Why don't you go visit them to discuss your support? Here, be sure to wear this bright red parka."
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 08:21 PM   #293
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 14,986
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I'm aware of the theory but it still doesn't explain how they got there from India. There has long been a variety of theories about early Indian settlement through Southeast Asia but it's never been proven and there is zero archaeological evidence. Whether 50,000 years ago or 25,000 years ago, they still need to solve the question of how they got there. The only currents that presently would get Indians to those islands would be actually coming around from the Indian west coast and off Sri Lanka. The more accessible points from the Bengal area have currents moving in the wrong direction.

The DNA evidence is far from conclusive and it is equally possible that the people from central India (also "out of Africa" just a different wave) made their way by land over several millennia to the lower reaches of Malaysia and thence to Indonesia. The DNA factors are shared and inconclusive.

We also don't know with any certainty the topography. Remember that not too far away there used to be a Krakatoa. And in the other direction "Adam's Bridge" existed up to a few hundred years earlier in the 15th century. There may have been more islands in the area - in either direction, thus not proving either theory. I'm just going by the existing coastal and island structures.
The part I quoted said Myanmar. It seems to agree with you that they didn't come from India directly.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2018, 02:57 PM   #294
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,501
I mean the Australian pol has a point, their no contact policy really seems to have helped their economy. Isolationism looks like sound policy to me.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:01 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.