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Tags Chicago incidents , Chicago issues , crime statistics , racial issues

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Old 29th November 2018, 07:19 AM   #161
baron
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Oh, I'm making a very serious point. A point that has been held dear by researchers and scientists over the years and one to which I do not believe you adhere or, possibly, might not even be aware of.
Unless you actually name it, it's difficult to say.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
And, just out of interest, how do you identify a post as a 'drive by' less than 10 minutes after it was made? That's some mighty prognostication you have going on there.
I that case I retract my statement. What I thought was a jibe is just you building up to providing on-topic debate and evidence to back it up.
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Old 29th November 2018, 07:25 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Unless you actually name it, it's difficult to say.



I that case I retract my statement. What I thought was a jibe is just you building up to providing on-topic debate and evidence to back it up.

What, during your research, did you look for to demonstrate to yourself that your underlying assumptions are wrong?

What evidence would you have to see to be convinced that your initial position was inaccurate?

Did you set about trying to prove or disprove your assumptions?
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Old 29th November 2018, 07:35 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
What, during your research, did you look for to demonstrate to yourself that your underlying assumptions are wrong?

What evidence would you have to see to be convinced that your initial position was inaccurate?

Did you set about trying to prove or disprove your assumptions?
Why are you arguing against my methodology as opposed to presenting evidence? It's a well-worn tactic and doesn't really wash any more. But since you ask, here's a funny fact. I began to research the topic in some depth due to discussions on this very forum. I had posted an argument broadly opposite to that I'm making today and did some extra research in order to prove my point and rebut someone else's. What I actually found was that it was my viewpoint that was flawed, hence I changed it.

Is this the kind of thing you're meaning?
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Old 29th November 2018, 07:41 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Why are you arguing against my methodology as opposed to presenting evidence?
Because, when asked for evidence, you said this:

Originally Posted by baron View Post
Don't be ridiculous. Do you think I've written an academic paper and am waiting for someone on a forum to pop up so I can post it? I've read a number of books and articles on the topic and that's my conclusion. Don't like it? Tough luck.

Which struck me as lacking both in evidence and apparent rigor in your research. Of course, because you haven't presented your research, I can't really argue with it.


Quote:
It's a well-worn tactic and doesn't really wash any more.

It's not a 'tactic'. Analysis of methodology is essential to understanding the reliability of any research.

"Here are my numbers", holds no water. "Here are my numbers and this is how and where I got them from" does.


Quote:
But since you ask, here's a funny fact. I began to research the topic in some depth due to discussions on this very forum. I had posted an argument broadly opposite to that I'm making today and did some extra research in order to prove my point and rebut someone else's. What I actually found was that it was my viewpoint that was flawed, hence I changed it.

Is this the kind of thing you're meaning?

Yes, it is. Again, I haven't seen your research so I have no idea how you have accounted for your bias, in either direction.
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Old 29th November 2018, 07:57 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Because, when asked for evidence, you said this:
Which struck me as lacking both in evidence and apparent rigor in your research. Of course, because you haven't presented your research, I can't really argue with it.
Well no, what actually happened is that in the middle of a discussion I was told, "Show your analysis," as if I could upload a PDF to illustrate some five or ten years' thinking on the matter. If someone demanded the same of you during a discussion would you be willing or able to schlep out a written account of how you came to hold your opinion? I think not.


Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It's not a 'tactic'. Analysis of methodology is essential to understanding the reliability of any research.

"Here are my numbers", holds no water. "Here are my numbers and this is how and where I got them from" does.
If I cite numbers then I either post where I got them, or if somebody asks I'll be happy to provide a link. That's a bit different from presenting an analysis of how you came to hold a certain opinion.

You think racism is bad? Show your analysis! It's nothing more than a derailment and a delaying tactic.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yes, it is. Again, I haven't seen your research so I have no idea how you have accounted for your bias, in either direction.
You don't need to see my research, but the fact you equate bias with opinion says a lot.
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Old 29th November 2018, 09:47 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
You don't need to see my research, but the fact you equate bias with opinion says a lot.

Opinion can be a sort of bias, but that's sort of not the point.

You will, whether you know it or not, have a bias. This will, unless you carefully control for it, heavily influence what you believe to be your unbiased research.

I'm afraid I suspect that your research over how ever long it has been has simply been you seeking out things that confirm your bias (known or unknown) and ignoring (consciously or unconsciously) evidence that doesn't.

Of course, I can't prove this either way, I haven't seen what it is that's caused you to arrive at your conclusion, but, without strict controls for bias, I wouldn't trust anyone's (including my own) ad hoc research that ends up simply confirming the initial, unresearched opinion.
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Old 29th November 2018, 10:44 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
That article is a load of unsupported blather. Asians do OK because they experience a different flavour of racism, and the racism blacks experience is worse. Oh please. I won't even mention the Jews because who knows what kind of blog post I'll get in return.
Refusing to acknowledge simple facts won't get you far.

(And there's also the fact that the great majority of Asian families immigrated to the US (at least) very recently, with wealth intact, while quite a few parts of the US still actively work to drain wealth from black families in particular, via prison labor, divestment from neighborhoods, asset forfeitures, and in towns like Ferguson, heavy fines. Oddly, when we look to groups that show up without wealth, particularly Vienamese and Laotians, they end up faring worse than black Americans, not better, in income, education, and other measures)

Last edited by Mumbles; 29th November 2018 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 29th November 2018, 11:20 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I'm confused what happens when an Asian points out racial differences in crime statistics. Does that make him an Asian supremacist or a white supremacist? I've given up trying to figure out skeptic logic.
Depends on why they bring it up, same as anyone else.

It's pretty common for a white person to only bring up so-called "black on black crime" in order to either state that black people are genetically inferior to white people, or to shift the discussion from another topic, such as police brutality, and very often in defense of whatever violence is under discussion - here's a great example from Rudy Guiliani. When it comes time to clean up lead exposure, it's "there's no money for that!", when people are marching, mentoring kids, and the like, they're nowhere to be found - only to whine about how black people "never talk about crime".

An asian person who does the same thing can still be presumed to be a racist of some sort - as can anyone else regardless of skin color.
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Old 29th November 2018, 11:21 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Which struck me as lacking both in evidence and apparent rigor in your research.
Speaking of which.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
My suspicion is that wherever the report is of 'black men' or 'black youths' the word 'black' can nearly always be replaced with the word 'poor'.

I suspect it's just easier to identify people by race rather than identifying them by the actual reason they're acting as they are.


Young men with money and prospects don't tent to rampage the streets.

Young men with no money and no prospects, well, what do they have to lose?

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Old 29th November 2018, 11:25 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Ah facts.
Calm down, calm down. Think these things through. Don't get too excited before reading the entire thread. The argument was that white skeptics on this forum were exposed to more lead as infants than the young black youths of today did. The paper he cited supported this so you can relax now.
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Old 29th November 2018, 11:27 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Depends on why they bring it up, same as anyone else.

It's pretty common for a white person to only bring up so-called "black on black crime" in order to either state that black people are genetically inferior to white people, or to shift the discussion from another topic, such as police brutality, and very often in defense of whatever violence is under discussion - here's a great example from Rudy Guiliani. When it comes time to clean up lead exposure, it's "there's no money for that!", when people are marching, mentoring kids, and the like, they're nowhere to be found - only to whine about how black people "never talk about crime".

An asian person who does the same thing can still be presumed to be a racist of some sort - as can anyone else regardless of skin color.
Is Thomas Sowell racist?
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Old 29th November 2018, 11:34 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Opinion can be a sort of bias, but that's sort of not the point.
No kidding. A White American working at Popeye's chicken in Baltimore will have a different opinion on black people than a Englishman living a 97% white town.
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Old 29th November 2018, 11:45 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
2. London is not a country. Yet.
Blacks in the UK prison population are over-represented slightly less but still similar to the US prison population.
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Old 29th November 2018, 12:04 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
so-called "black on black crime"
So called black on black crime?

It is interesting to see you and other racism-fetishists give such short shrift to such a rampant and widespread problem. Black on black violence is one of the main problems facing the black community and it is being ignored by people like you who would rather talk about isolated incidents that fit your feel-good racism narrative.

If you were as concerned about the real world problems the community faces as you are with Internet posturing your focus would be much different.
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Old 29th November 2018, 12:09 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Is Thomas Sowell racist?
He traffics in the same stereotypes and wildly simplistic thinking when it comes to black communities as any white racist, he never seems to be around when people are putting in any actual anti-violence work, he frequently recommends crappy thinkers like Heather MacDonald, so yes.

(I'm nice - a lot of people just straight-up call him a coon)
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Old 29th November 2018, 12:19 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Refusing to acknowledge simple facts won't get you far.

(And there's also the fact that the great majority of Asian families immigrated to the US (at least) very recently, with wealth intact, while quite a few parts of the US still actively work to drain wealth from black families in particular, via prison labor, divestment from neighborhoods, asset forfeitures, and in towns like Ferguson, heavy fines. Oddly, when we look to groups that show up without wealth, particularly Vienamese and Laotians, they end up faring worse than black Americans, not better, in income, education, and other measures)
Yup, that data was linked to in the article I linked to. How can that be? Didn't baron say the article was unsupported?

Well, it was supported. As far as we can tell it is true. Coming here with money and support networks intact leads to better outcomes than without them. That some are systemically and generationally denied access to these is a huge problem.
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Old 29th November 2018, 12:39 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yup, that data was linked to in the article I linked to. How can that be? Didn't baron say the article was unsupported?

Well, it was supported. As far as we can tell it is true. Coming here with money and support networks intact leads to better outcomes than without them. That some are systemically and generationally denied access to these is a huge problem.
It's an opinion piece. The only support it has is a few other people who have the same opinion. It basically revolves around OK, Asians experience racism but a different racism, and not all Asians excel because look at the Bhutanese (who, the article omits to mention, comprise 0.006% of the US population).
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Old 29th November 2018, 01:17 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It's an opinion piece. The only support it has is a few other people who have the same opinion. It basically revolves around OK, Asians experience racism but a different racism, and not all Asians excel because look at the Bhutanese (who, the article omits to mention, comprise 0.006% of the US population).
You act like we haven't heard these exact stereotypes being perpetuated incessantly - the truth is that many people apply them even at the absolutely worst time (see: Maher blathering about how he was expecting Barack Obama to be :"gangsta", the "thug" stereotype being applied to "Jesus Walks" rapper Kanye West, or to Richard Sherman).

Compare to the "Tiger Mom" myth, or the "Asians are hard, obedient workers" crap.
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Old 29th November 2018, 01:35 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
You act like we haven't heard these exact stereotypes being perpetuated incessantly - the truth is that many people apply them even at the absolutely worst time (see: Maher blathering about how he was expecting Barack Obama to be :"gangsta", the "thug" stereotype being applied to "Jesus Walks" rapper Kanye West, or to Richard Sherman).

Compare to the "Tiger Mom" myth, or the "Asians are hard, obedient workers" crap.
I don't know what any of that means, but you appear to be concentrating on individual cases rather than group trends. Different peoples have different cultures and these cultural attitudes vary in multiple ways, resulting in disparate outcomes. This is not controversial until it throws up data the listener would rather not consider, and in response they say things like, "You act like we haven't heard these exact stereotypes being perpetuated incessantly."
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Old 3rd December 2018, 02:33 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It's an opinion piece. The only support it has is a few other people who have the same opinion. It basically revolves around OK, Asians experience racism but a different racism, and not all Asians excel because look at the Bhutanese (who, the article omits to mention, comprise 0.006% of the US population).
It was an opinion piece that supported it's arguments with facts, facts that were not red-herrings like you're citing here.

You deny good evidence. You think that it being an opinion piece means something. Your posts are opinion pieces as well, and with far less support.
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