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Old 15th September 2017, 08:06 AM   #1
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Looks like another hot time in St. Louis this weekend...

I'm not talking about the weather. Will it be peaceful, or worse than Ferguson? Only time will tell.
An ex police officer was found not guilty in the shooting death of a black suspect.
http://www.ksdk.com/news/crime/stock...sion/469421225
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Old 15th September 2017, 08:31 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I'm not talking about the weather. Will it be peaceful, or worse than Ferguson? Only time will tell.
An ex police officer was found not guilty in the shooting death of a black suspect.
http://www.ksdk.com/news/crime/stock...sion/469421225
Yep. This verdict was a big surprise, given the way they put off announcing it for several weeks for safety concerns.

I'm hoping for non-violent protests, but people are *********** angry.


eta: another source
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Old 15th September 2017, 08:45 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
The state has to disprove an affirmative defense?

Quote:
Because the state did not prove Stockley did not act in self-defense, Wilson wrote that he could not address lesser charges of homicide or manslaughter
That seems backwards.
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Old 15th September 2017, 08:48 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
The state has to disprove an affirmative defense?



That seems backwards.
Yeah, I don't know. Welcome to the American justice system.
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Old 15th September 2017, 10:01 AM   #5
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There have been several school closings and I've seen FB reports of protests, but as yet, no reports of violence.
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Old 15th September 2017, 10:23 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
The state has to disprove an affirmative defense?

That seems backwards.
Under Missouri law, once the defendant introduces evidence and reasonable plausibility in support of a self-defense claim, the burden shifts to the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was not self defense/.
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Old 15th September 2017, 10:52 AM   #7
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The burden is always heavily on the prosecution.

It looks like the prosecution didn't even come close to proving it's case.
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Old 15th September 2017, 08:53 PM   #8
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Protesters decided to stop by the Mayor's house and say, Hi.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/l...lling-49872065
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Old 15th September 2017, 09:23 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Protesters decided to stop by the Mayor's house and say, Hi.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/l...lling-49872065
This is easily walking distance from my house. Probably less than a mile. Just a little further east on Lindell from the former site of the infamous Confederate memorial.

If possible, we might drive by in the morning on the way to one of the kids soccer game.
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Old 16th September 2017, 04:39 AM   #10
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We (essentially all St. Louis area police departments) went on 12-hour shifts as of yesterday.
We have designated "response teams" to respond to any locations where there's problems.

The first day was not too bad, actually. Lots of anger. CNN has a photo spread up showing VERY angry protesters screaming at police, but little violence. I believe a couple of car windows were smashed. No arsons or shootings reported.
We're on this schedule likely through Tuesday.

CNN had an interview up with Shockley this morning.

I would have to say that most all the media reporting seems to be coming at this case from the standpoint of....He was guilty as hell and escaped justice.

However, the judge wrote a 30-page decision and said he went over everything time and again.
A main sticking point is the lack of the suspect's prints or DNA on the gun. However, if you were going to hide a gun in your car, it certainly wouldn't tax belief to think the guy might have cleaned it up thoroughly before sticking it away.
Then, if found in a search, you could make a hard-to-disprove claim that it wasn't yours or that it belonged to an acquaintance.... Or was planted.
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Old 16th September 2017, 05:11 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
I would have to say that most all the media reporting seems to be coming at this case from the standpoint of....He was guilty as hell and escaped justice.
Not just the media: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...d72422ba3.html

My sticking point is that Stockley is recorded saying he was going to kill Smith. Stockley then kills Smith. Somehow, that doesn't count as premeditation because of Stockley feared for his life during his act of premeditated murder.

Plus, there was a whole lot of Stockley not following regulations and procedures without much in the way of consequences.
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Old 16th September 2017, 05:43 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Plus, there was a whole lot of Stockley not following regulations and procedures without much in the way of consequences.
I'd thought that when he started bringing his own AK-47 to work the blue wall would have cracked but it held. It's mind boggling the amount of bad behavior "good" cops are willing to put up from the "bad apples."
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Old 16th September 2017, 06:04 AM   #13
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From what I understand, the mayor is outraged at this verdict? So why trash her house?
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Old 16th September 2017, 06:32 AM   #14
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It was reasonably suspected the victim was reaching for a hidden gun? Crazy stuff.
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Old 16th September 2017, 07:19 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
From what I understand, the mayor is outraged at this verdict? So why trash her house?
I can't say the exact reason, but she is newly elected and was the only white candidate (Democrat, which is the only party that matters in the city) against 5 or 6 black candidates. Krewson's major opponent ran with police reform as a big part of her campaign. Krewson got the endorsement of the head of the police union, who is ...zealous in his duties, to put it politely.
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Old 16th September 2017, 07:21 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
It was reasonably suspected the victim was reaching for a hidden gun? Crazy stuff.
Well, he was, according to the judge, "urban".
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Old 16th September 2017, 08:02 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The burden is always heavily on the prosecution.

It looks like the prosecution didn't even come close to proving it's case.
Various government agencies at the state and federal level declined to prosecute over the past 6 years, for obvious reasons. They had no case.

Justice was served.
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Old 16th September 2017, 08:04 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Plus, there was a whole lot of Stockley not following regulations and procedures without much in the way of consequences.
Not relevant to guilt or innocence.
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Old 16th September 2017, 08:05 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
From what I understand, the mayor is outraged at this verdict? So why trash her house?
Hipster rage.
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Old 16th September 2017, 08:08 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Not relevant to guilt or innocence.
That's why it was a side note and not my main point.

But it is relevant to whether or not Stockley was a good cop. By all accounts, he was not.
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Old 16th September 2017, 08:09 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
From what I understand, the mayor is outraged at this verdict? So why trash her house?
She may have been reaching for a hidden gun!
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Old 16th September 2017, 08:37 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Various government agencies at the state and federal level declined to prosecute over the past 6 years, for obvious reasons. They had no case.

Justice was served.
No, it really wasn't. I suspect Stockley weived his right to jury trial because he thought a judge would be more sympathetic than a jury.
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Old 16th September 2017, 08:45 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
From what I understand, the mayor is outraged at this verdict? So why trash her house?
Speaking from a position of complete ignorance about the specific case, not everyone who turns up to mass protest gatherings does so with honest intentions. Quite often you will have an opportunist fringe who just want to smash things.
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Old 16th September 2017, 09:32 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Speaking from a position of complete ignorance about the specific case, not everyone who turns up to mass protest gatherings does so with honest intentions. Quite often you will have an opportunist fringe who just want to smash things.
I do like the fact that the justice dept. is looking into the phone/text records of 200 people arrested at Trump's inauguration. Looking for evidence of felony incitement to riot.

WHEN they do find it (assumed), aren't the rioters each guilty of murder, of anybody who died at the riot?

I won't be surprised at a small cadre behind ALL the riots in the country for decades. Why would people burn down their own shopping districts? But out of town rabble rousers wouldn't care- they go back to their own shopping districts.
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Old 16th September 2017, 10:35 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I'm not talking about the weather. Will it be peaceful, or worse than Ferguson? Only time will tell.
An ex police officer was found not guilty in the shooting death of a black suspect.
http://www.ksdk.com/news/crime/stock...sion/469421225
It looks like the cop planted a throw-away gun on the victim after shooting him 5 times. Damn,
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Old 16th September 2017, 11:28 AM   #26
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Black lives matter


Heroin dealers, not so much
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Old 16th September 2017, 12:44 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Black lives matter


Heroin dealers, not so much
You know, he still had a right to due process and a trial.
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Old 16th September 2017, 01:14 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
You know, he still had a right to due process and a trial.
You know you are right and so do I.

The police also have a right not to be run over.

Sometimes you can't ensure that everyone get their rights.
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Old 16th September 2017, 01:22 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
You know you are right and so do I.

The police also have a right not to be run over.

Sometimes you can't ensure that everyone get their rights.
I thought the idea was that the victim was reaching for a gun, not trying to run anyone over. Is this a new talking point?
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Old 16th September 2017, 01:26 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
The state has to disprove an affirmative defense?
That seems backwards.
Normally it is. Normally, the defense can remain completely mute because the prosecution has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime. Except in affirmative defenses.

An affirmative defense is one where the defendant admits to committing the crime but the specific circumstances are such that they should not be prosecuted for it. The best example is self-defense; the so-called insanity plea is another.

When making an affirmative defense, however, the defendant now has the burden of proof rather than the prosecution; the defense must now prove that the act was a result of self-defense (as the example) and all the prosecution has to do is to demonstrate that it was not.

In self-defense cases, it's basically the defendant saying, "yeah, I killed the guy but it was because he was just about to kill me so I shouldn't be punished for it."



Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The burden is always heavily on the prosecution.
Again, true under normal circumstances, except as I noted above.
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Old 16th September 2017, 01:29 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I thought the idea was that the victim was reaching for a gun, not trying to run anyone over. Is this a new talking point?
"Reaching for a gun" is the claim.
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Old 16th September 2017, 01:30 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I thought the idea was that the victim was reaching for a gun, not trying to run anyone over. Is this a new talking point?
The running over part happened before the high speed chase which happened before the reaching for the gun.

allegedly
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Old 16th September 2017, 01:50 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
You know you are right and so do I.

The police also have a right not to be run over.

Sometimes you can't ensure that everyone get their rights.
The question is, despite the verdict, whether this is one of those times. By Stockley's own words, he had no intention of letting Smith have his rights.
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Old 16th September 2017, 01:55 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
The running over part happened before the high speed chase which happened before the reaching for the gun.

allegedly
So it's irrelevant to the shooting then?
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Old 16th September 2017, 02:12 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
So it's irrelevant to the shooting then?
Only if the shooting was in self-defense, not if it was premeditated. It could be considered motivation.
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Old 16th September 2017, 02:26 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Only if the shooting was in self-defense, not if it was premeditated. It could be considered motivation.
True.
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Old 16th September 2017, 04:21 PM   #37
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12 shots were fired, 7 before the car chase and 5 after the crash.

He started shooting when the guy tried to run him down.

Self defense
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Old 16th September 2017, 04:23 PM   #38
bobdroege7
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
So it's irrelevant to the shooting then?
No, goes to stated of mind, and fear for his life.
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Old 16th September 2017, 05:43 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
No, goes to stated of mind, and fear for his life.
Fearing for his life followed by aggressively following Smith, angrily declaring that he'd kill him and then doing so?

You might be stretching a bit to fit the data to your conclusion.
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Old 16th September 2017, 06:00 PM   #40
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The sequence that gets me is after Stockley chased, then rammed Smith's car, Stockley got out of the police car, ran up to Smith and shot him 5 times at point-blank range. The last shot was to his head from 6 inches away.

Claiming it was self-defense would be hard to substantiate. Claiming it was premeditated would be, but the judge wasn't convinced. I don't know how much more premeditated you can get.
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