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Tags Chicago incidents , Chicago issues , crime statistics , racial issues

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Old 31st August 2018, 08:27 AM   #81
3point14
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Compassion for the kid who punched the lady in the face?

Seriously, explain that to me
No.


If I thought there was half a chance that your position might move, I'd bother. But there isn't, so I won't.

You can have a lovely day though.
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Old 31st August 2018, 08:33 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No.


If I thought there was half a chance that your position might move, I'd bother. But there isn't, so I won't.

You can have a lovely day though.
Well, to be honest y'all kinda dug yourself a hole when you said we should have compassion, in reply to an article that literally shows a kid sucker punching a woman in the head, so....
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Old 31st August 2018, 08:41 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well, to be honest y'all kinda dug yourself a hole when you said we should have compassion, in reply to an article that literally shows a kid sucker punching a woman in the head, so....

You can straw-man my post as much as you like, go on, go ahead, do it again.

Still not wasting my time trying to explain it to you, that's a fool's errand.
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Old 31st August 2018, 08:49 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No, that's not what I think. What I think is much more complicated than that and requires a little introspection and some compassion.


I shan't try to explain it to you.
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You can straw-man my post as much as you like, go on, go ahead, do it again.

Still not wasting my time trying to explain it to you, that's a fool's errand.
Oh dear, did I strawman your post? Well I certainly did not mean to do that i can tell you because of your comment in reply to my post which said

"You think that kid punched the lady in the face because he was "poor.""

and you replied that it requires 'requires a little introspection and some compassion" which .... well doesn't sound like what I wrote was a strawman at all.... hmmmm....

which is weird.. You did see the kid sucker punch the lady? Yes___ NO___
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Old 31st August 2018, 08:53 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Compassion for the kid who punched the lady in the face?

Seriously, explain that to me, I should feel compassionate for a mob of kids that steal, attack passerby, swarm into a bar attacking patrons, etc etc.

Gonna need an explanation, because based on first hand experience they are nasty violent criminals.
OK, why are they violent nasty criminals? What made them that way?

Others on this thread have pointed to poverty, lack of opportunity and such as part of the problem, while noting that its a complex situation.

What is your explanation?

Where do street gangs come from? What type of neighborhoods? Without being an expert, I would hypothesize that they arise in areas of poverty. Especially where people are classified into groups based on genetics or ethnicity. I base this on Chicago's history of gangs forming in ethnic communities (Polish, Irish, Italian, etc.) Basically, they form where people with some commonality band together for protection from a perceived threat from people outside that commonality. I suspect the origins are protection and crime comes later.

Quote:
The race riot of 1919, in which black males united
to confront hostile white gang members who were
terrorizing the black community, also contributed
directly to black gang formation in Chicago (Perkins,
1987). White and black youth battled fiercely “as each
group declared street supremacy and control over
streets, alleys, railroad tracks, storefronts, building
stoops, and small waterfronts” (p. 353). Although some
black gangs likely formed to counter the aggressive
white youth, the unorganized black youth were no
match for the well-organized, all-white gangs that were
centered in their athletic clubs. These confrontations
declined between the 1920s and the early 1940s, but
interracial conflict continued, along with competition
for the ghetto’s scarce resources.
https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/c...reet-gangs.pdf

What do you think leads to the rise of street gangs and youth violence?
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Old 31st August 2018, 08:58 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh dear, did I strawman your post? Well I certainly did not mean to do that i can tell you because of your comment in reply to my post which said

"You think that kid punched the lady in the face because he was "poor.""

and you replied that it requires 'requires a little introspection and some compassion" which .... well doesn't sound like what I wrote was a strawman at all.... hmmmm....

which is weird.. You did see the kid sucker punch the lady? Yes___ NO___

Go back and read the post that started this. See if you can find any specific reference to the incident you're talking about. You won't be able to.

This is what I'm talking about. You've decided that my original post meant one thing, when it didn't. You've not taken the time and trouble to go back and read it again and realise that I haven't, at any point, mentioned this incident.

Of course, I don;'t think you'll do that. I think you'll continue to misinterpret, either willfully or otherwise, that which I have written. This is why, as I say, it's really not worth the time and trouble to explain it to you.

If you can come back to me with reasonable questions based on an accurate interpretation of my original post on the matter then maybe we can have a dialogue, but, to be honest, I don't hold out much hope as that would require you to admit you made an error. I can't see that happening.
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Old 31st August 2018, 09:11 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
OK, why are they violent nasty criminals? What made them that way?
their parents or lack thereof, together with a corrupt Government that panders to them because they need the votes.

I loved the old timey recitation of gangs as protection of the neighborhood which is about as relevant as wearing an onion on your belt today.

I am going to go ahead and state that Boystown, and Wrigleyville were not these fellows neighborhood, anymore than the Loop, the Mag Mile or Nortn Avenue Beach, the other places where they have attacked people this summer.

And their leaders will be shutting down highways, instead of the drug markets, will be fighting against enhanced enforcement of car jackings which lead directly to drive by shoot ups.
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Old 31st August 2018, 09:15 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Go back and read the post that started this. See if you can find any specific reference to the incident you're talking about. You won't be able to.
Ok, chacha chach ChaCHA!
finds post, copies entire post, hits quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You think that kid punched the lady in the face because he was "poor."

Posted by 3point14:

Ok..

No, that's not what I think. What I think is much more complicated than that and requires a little introspection and some compassion.


I shan't try to explain it to you.
And The Big Dog does the impossible! Finds the specific reference to the specific incident right in your own post!

For someone who shan't try to explain it to me, y'all should have taken your own advice...
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Old 31st August 2018, 09:24 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ok, chacha chach ChaCHA!
finds post, copies entire post, hits quote:
And.....

Discovers he's gone to the wrong post. Seriously. The first one. The one to which you initially responded.

Try that one.


I knew it was pointless to try. I hope the rest of your day improves.
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Old 31st August 2018, 09:29 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
And.....

Discovers he's gone to the wrong post. Seriously. The first one. The one to which you initially responded.

Try that one.


I knew it was pointless to try. I hope the rest of your day improves.
But we were talking about how one should have "compassion" right, and i found the first post that mentions that.

One should have compassion for kids punching a woman in the head, and jumping through windows to attack people inside.

Looking forward to your next post
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Old 31st August 2018, 09:36 AM   #91
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Quote:
I loved the old timey recitation of gangs as protection of the neighborhood which is about as relevant as wearing an onion on your belt today.
The "old timey" history is relevant to the origins of the same gangs that are active in Chicago today. If you don't recognize where they came from, you can't hope to resolve the current problem and prevent the formation of new gangs.

Gangs originated before government pandering, broken families and all that. There are a lot of broken families and in the suburbs. Terrible parenting is also common. Yet, somehow gangs tend to flourish more in poverty stricken ghetto areas. Why is that? Could it be that kids who grow up in less depressed areas still see opportunities around them regardless of how terrible their home lives might be?

And what made those bad parents in the ghettos? Perhaps a lack of opportunity or hope?

It's very easy for those of us who grew up in stable environments where most everyone's parents were able to find decent, if not great, jobs (or even better: careers) to believe that others should have the same perception of the world as those who come from a different environment. But it is not reality.

If you want to solve the violence problem, you need to figure out how to change the perception of the world the kids develop as they grow up. Presumably, so that they can see the same opportunities as kids who grow up in more affluent areas. I don't know how to do that. It's a hard cycle to break. One thing I do know is that pushing them further into separate groups doesn't help.

Also, assigning blame does not address the problem or assist in finding a solution.

I don't think anyone is excusing some kid punching a woman in the face or suggesting that these are acts that should go unpunished. But to stop this from happening you have to identify and address the underlying cause. Identifying a reason is not the same as excusing.
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Old 31st August 2018, 09:43 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
The "old timey" history is relevant to the origins of the same gangs that are active in Chicago today. .
These are not the gangs you are looking for.

These gangs are multinational criminal enterprises that are more heavily armed than most Scandinavian countries and exist primarily to control the distribution of narcotics.

This "ghetto" stuff is so unbelievably quaint. In 19 dickety two the ghetto youths formed the Punching Gentlemen who used small pointed sticks to protect the neighborhood from ruffians.....
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Old 31st August 2018, 09:44 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
I don't think anyone is excusing some kid punching a woman in the face or suggesting that these are acts that should go unpunished. But to stop this from happening you have to identify and address the underlying cause. Identifying a reason is not the same as excusing.
Absolutely.

I don't know that I've seen many gangs of rich or even middle class teenagers rampaging the streets. I might have missed it though, it maybe does happen.

Root cause investigation in search of a solution, however, is something that some people just don't want. They don't want the problem solved, they just want a metaphorical stick. Solving the problem, or even identifying it, would take away the stick.
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Old 31st August 2018, 09:47 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Absolutely.

I don't know that I've seen many gangs of rich or even middle class teenagers rampaging the streets. I might have missed it though, it maybe does happen.

Root cause investigation in search of a solution, however, is something that some people just don't want. They don't want the problem solved, they just want a metaphorical stick. Solving the problem, or even identifying it, would take away the stick.
I just explained the root cause. Parents and corrupt local governments.

Not too difficult
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Old 31st August 2018, 10:03 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
These are not the gangs you are looking for.

These gangs are multinational criminal enterprises that are more heavily armed than most Scandinavian countries and exist primarily to control the distribution of narcotics.

This "ghetto" stuff is so unbelievably quaint. In 19 dickety two the ghetto youths formed the Punching Gentlemen who used small pointed sticks to protect the neighborhood from ruffians.....
I read this forum enough to know better than to try....

Look, I linked to a document about the evolution of gangs in various parts of the country. The origins of the current gangs can be traced back to earlier root origins. If you don't understand the history you can't understand the present. Without understanding the problem you can't find a solution.

I once worked with a guy who was a black activist. We had some great discussions and debates. I think we both learned a lot. (It's amazing what you can learn when people actually talk to each other and consider their viewpoint.) This was about 25 years ago, so I don't remember a lot of details, but one thing he said that stuck with me was that from his viewpoint, the police did not represent law and order. As he put it, the cops were "just another gang." Now, he was not a criminal. Nor was he violent or reactionary. He was a pretty smart guy who had thought out his positions well. Despite the fact that I disagreed with him on a lot of things, I came to understand why he had that view. It was based on the reality that he experienced every day growing up.

People's behaviors are based on their perceptions of the world around them. That perception is based on the realities they experience or witness as they live their lives. No one experiences all realities, just a subset. The subset I experience leads me to different conclusions than the subset my friend experienced.

If you want to change behavior, you have to change perception of the world. If you want to change the perception, you have to somehow change the experiences that create the perception.
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Old 31st August 2018, 10:10 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
I read this forum enough to know better than to try....

Look, I linked to a document about the evolution of gangs in various parts of the country. The origins of the current gangs can be traced back to earlier root origins. If you don't understand the history you can't understand the present. Without understanding the problem you can't find a solution.
Look, I just explained that the gangs are multinational criminal enterprises primarily designed to support and protect the trade in narcotics.

You want to change that, you break the profit motive in the narcotics trade, and "understanding the history" of their historic roots will do nothing to change that.
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Old 7th September 2018, 03:09 PM   #97
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It is rough, even "anti-violence" activists are being shot down in their prime!

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/pe...ar-south-side/

"He died as a servant."

/The Chicago Tribune cropped the picture so that the anti violence activist wasn't flashing the hand sign of the Black Disciples street gang.
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Old 24th November 2018, 07:52 PM   #98
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Merry Christmas Shopping Season!

https://www.cwbchicago.com/2018/11/m...-of-teens.html

They are probably out already, because they did not do anything, I am sure
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Old 24th November 2018, 11:40 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
My suspicion is that wherever the report is of 'black men' or 'black youths' the word 'black' can nearly always be replaced with the word 'poor'.

I suspect it's just easier to identify people by race rather than identifying them by the actual reason they're acting as they are.


Young men with money and prospects don't tent to rampage the streets.

Young men with no money and no prospects, well, what do they have to lose?
I get this is an old post but this has got to be said. These pseudointellectual ramblings have got to stop. So do the conditioned, knee-jerk reactions to absolve black people of any responsibility for their actions. You think you're being "compassionate" with these knee-jerk, stock answers to complex problems. You're not. It's very clear you don't understand the problem, nor do you have any intention of learning about the problem and you're only interested in playing the white savior. The "poor" black men in Chicago have access to more wealth than billions of people on the planet. The poorest blacks in Chicago murder more than the murder capital of the world Honduras. We've been over this "meh poverty" hypothesis a million times and just does not hold water. The answers to these problems are much more complicated than the pseudointellectual ramblings you find on a skeptics forum.

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Old 24th November 2018, 11:42 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It is rough, even "anti-violence" activists are being shot down in their prime!
The murder rate in New York City went down quite a bit over the decades. Think there's any hope for Chicago? The prospects look grim.
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Old 25th November 2018, 12:17 AM   #101
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Looks like someone learned a new word today, but completely failed to understand what it actually means.

"Pseudointellectual". Cute.
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Old 25th November 2018, 12:32 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I get this is an old post but this has got to be said. These pseudointellectual ramblings have got to stop. So do the conditioned, knee-jerk reactions to absolve black people of any responsibility for their actions. You think you're being "compassionate" with these knee-jerk, stock answers to complex problems. You're not. It's very clear you don't understand the problem, nor do you have any intention of learning about the problem and you're only interested in playing the white savior. The "poor" black men in Chicago have access to more wealth than billions of people on the planet. The poorest blacks in Chicago murder more than the murder capital of the world Honduras. We've been over this "meh poverty" hypothesis a million times and just does not hold water. The answers to these problems are much more complicated than the pseudointellectual ramblings you find on a skeptics forum.
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
So sick of these pseudointellectual ramblings.

Baylor has learned a new word (almost), and now he can't stop using it.
What he doesn't appear to understand, however, is that
1) explanation does not imply absolution
2) childish ideas of white supremacy and other body strength don't prove the superiority of the people who have them.
On the contrary, they reveal a character that is mortally scared of being inferior and only therefore obsessed with 'proving' the imaginary superiority all the time. It's what white supremacists have in common with the POTUS ... and with other scared white men like the incels, for instance.
I never know if I ought to pity them or despise them. I guess I do both.


ETA: ninjaed by Lambchops:
Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Looks like someone learned a new word today, but completely failed to understand what it actually means.

"Pseudointellectual". Cute.
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Old 25th November 2018, 12:35 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The murder rate in New York City went down quite a bit over the decades. Think there's any hope for Chicago? The prospects look grim.
Chicago ranks 9th among large cities in murder rate, much lower than leaders St. Louis and Baltimore.

Chicago's murder rate is lower than it was in the 80s and 90s. It's been on a downward trend since peaking in 2016. https://heyjackass.com/
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Old 25th November 2018, 12:37 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Baylor has learned a new word (almost), and now he can't stop using it.
What he doesn't appear to understand, however, is that
1) explanation does not imply absolution
2) childish ideas of white supremacy and other body strength don't prove the superiority of the people who have them.
On the contrary, they reveal a character that is mortally scared of being inferior and only therefore obsessed with 'proving' the imaginary superiority all the time. It's what white supremacists have in common with the POTUS ... and with other scared white men like the incels, for instance.
I never know if I ought to pity them or despise them. I guess I do both.
I just despise them. I reserve my pity for people who aren't irredeemably and unapologetically horrible human beings.
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Old 25th November 2018, 12:44 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Chicago ranks 9th among large cities in murder rate, much lower than leaders St. Louis and Baltimore.

Chicago's murder rate is lower than it was in the 80s and 90s. It's been on a downward trend since peaking in 2016. https://heyjackass.com/

Don't ruin it for Baylor with pseudo-intellectual facts!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th November 2018, 12:57 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It is rough, even "anti-violence" activists are being shot down in their prime!

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/pe...ar-south-side/

"He died as a servant."

/The Chicago Tribune cropped the picture so that the anti violence activist wasn't flashing the hand sign of the Black Disciples street gang.

You're such a good Christian, TBD.
There's not a single white face in the crowd that's mourning the anti-violence activist in the video.
Why not?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th November 2018, 09:12 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Don't ruin it for Baylor with pseudo-intellectual facts!
Try reading the source material before making snarky comments. In 2016 and 2017, the murder rate in Chicago has reached levels of the 70's and 80's. 2018 is on pace to have a murder rate similar to that of the 90's, well above the "low" of the previous decade.

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Old 25th November 2018, 09:42 AM   #108
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You're such a good Christian, TBD.
There's not a single white face in the crowd that's mourning the anti-violence activist in the video.
Why not?
Thread ain't about me.

No one should be mourning that "anti-violence activist" because he wasn't one, he was typical scum bag gang banger and the only picture they could find of him he was throwing down gang signs.
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Old 25th November 2018, 01:44 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Try reading the source material before making snarky comments. In 2016 and 2017, the murder rate in Chicago has reached levels of the 70's and 80's. 2018 is on pace to have a murder rate similar to that of the 90's, well above the "low" of the previous decade.
Crime went up, crime comes down. Your statement was " Think there's any hope for Chicago? The prospects look grim". Yet it's not always dire, with changes in police strategy and even economics coming into play.
  • Lead pollution is still endemic.
  • Employment opportunities are still low in high crime areas.
  • The educational system there sucks.

Fixes to these things can happen.

Or you could just tut-tut the gang-bangers and "thug culture", because cartoons are so much easier to understand.
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Old 25th November 2018, 01:52 PM   #110
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Crime went up, crime comes down. Your statement was " Think there's any hope for Chicago? The prospects look grim". Yet it's not always dire, with changes in police strategy and even economics coming into play.
  • Lead pollution is still endemic.
  • Employment opportunities are still low in high crime areas.
  • The educational system there sucks.

Fixes to these things can happen.

Or you could just tut-tut the gang-bangers and "thug culture", because cartoons are so much easier to understand.
Not until we vote out the democrats who have broken this state.
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Old 25th November 2018, 05:01 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Crime went up, crime comes down. Your statement was " Think there's any hope for Chicago? The prospects look grim". Yet it's not always dire, with changes in police strategy and even economics coming into play.
  • Lead pollution is still endemic.
  • Employment opportunities are still low in high crime areas.
  • The educational system there sucks.

Fixes to these things can happen.

Or you could just tut-tut the gang-bangers and "thug culture", because cartoons are so much easier to understand.
There are no race difference in lead exposure. There is in crime

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Old 25th November 2018, 05:24 PM   #112
LSSBB
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
There are no race difference in lead exposure. There is in crime

Burden of higher lead exposure in African-Americans starts in utero and persists into childhood
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Old 25th November 2018, 08:33 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
There are no race difference in lead exposure. There is in crime

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WhisperedR...restricted.gif
And in Chicago, nobody ever moves away from where they were born and/or raised either.
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Old 25th November 2018, 09:49 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Still vastly lower than the lead exposure of whites of 40 years ago.
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Old 25th November 2018, 09:57 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Given that >80% of teens in Chicago are non-white, and this kind of thing happens in every major city, I'm not sure why the racial aspect is significant.

I'm totally befuddled as to what the motivations of the posters in this thread are.

Me, too! 'Cuz the posters posturing in the thread are normally so Solomon-like in their fairness.
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Old 25th November 2018, 09:59 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Unfortunately, the person you are responding to couldn't care less about the ACTUAL data - the only thing he and his "fellow travelers" are interested in is shoving their racist, white supremacist views that blacks are inferior beasts down everyone's throat ...

PS: Speaking as someone who has 19 years of experience (1989 - 2008) in Cartography and GIS (and had recently took two refresher courses in vector and raster GIS techniques,) if the person you responded to had tried to do what he did with two TOTALLY disparate map types in the classes I took, that person would have most likely been laughed out of class ...
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Old 25th November 2018, 10:01 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by carlvs View Post
his "fellow travelers" are interested in is shoving their racist, white supremacist views that blacks are inferior beasts down everyone's throat ...
10th person
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Old 25th November 2018, 10:30 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by carlvs View Post
Unfortunately, the person you are responding to couldn't care less about the ACTUAL data -
I was referencing adults.

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Old 25th November 2018, 10:46 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
10th person
This non-sequiter means nothing at all.
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Old 25th November 2018, 10:47 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I was referencing adults.

https://i.imgur.com/yfliFJZ.png
*SIGH* Source?
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