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Tags LGBT issues , London incidents , protest incidents , transgender issues

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Old 12th July 2018, 05:30 AM   #41
Aber
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Because obviously they don't want anything that can pull the rug from under their victimhood.
Are you seriously arguing that there is not a gender pay gap?
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Old 12th July 2018, 05:34 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What has this to do with "the alt left" or "alt right"?
Well, the obsessive, viscous identity politics thing really is a "leftwing" (when defined as "not rightwing") problem for the most part, notwithstanding the fact that "white identity" neonazis are the only really frighting faction obsessed with their own demographic (excluding economic class) in that way.
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Old 12th July 2018, 05:39 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Still not understanding how this is a fault of the "left" and not a fault of all extremism, whether right, left, liberal and so on.
Rightwing "identity politics" are all about race.

Leftwing "identity politics" are about all the other identities people have, so there are more things to debate about.

These seem to be the general, not firm rules. I'm sure I could find all kinds of exotic exceptions if I thought about it long enough.
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:37 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Are you seriously arguing that there is not a gender pay gap?
I would say it depends on what you mean. There is a gap and probably always will be. It doesn't arise from women being paid less for doing the same job though as that is illegal.

It comes from choice. It happens even in the gig economy.

http://fortune.com/2018/02/06/uber-g...pay-gap-study/
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:39 AM   #45
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and the point remains that you don't even have to deny the wage gap.

If there is a wage gap that is due to gender, then changing your gender will change the problem, ie removing an excuse to victimhood for those who want to claim said victimhood
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:21 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Rightwing "identity politics" are all about race.

Leftwing "identity politics" are about all the other identities people have, so there are more things to debate about.

These seem to be the general, not firm rules. I'm sure I could find all kinds of exotic exceptions if I thought about it long enough.
WOW, I got the above wrong. That was totally my white-person-centered worldview showing. Yikes.
I retract.

I'm now as lost as Darat on where any of this lies on any sort of political spectrum.
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Old 13th July 2018, 12:17 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Stankeye View Post
I would say it depends on what you mean. There is a gap and probably always will be. It doesn't arise from women being paid less for doing the same job though as that is illegal.
Illegal, but still happens...

UK has recently introduced a requirement for employers with more than 250 staff to report pay by gender and explain inequalities. This seems to have been very effective in addressing the issues.

https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/

If gender becomes a matter of self-identification, this approach becomes difficult.
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Old 13th July 2018, 12:30 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Illegal, but still happens...

UK has recently introduced a requirement for employers with more than 250 staff to report pay by gender and explain inequalities. This seems to have been very effective in addressing the issues.

https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/

If gender becomes a matter of self-identification, this approach becomes difficult.
Why does it become difficult.?
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Old 13th July 2018, 01:17 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Are you seriously arguing that there is not a gender pay gap?
You seem to have missed the point.
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Old 13th July 2018, 01:22 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Illegal, but still happens...

UK has recently introduced a requirement for employers with more than 250 staff to report pay by gender and explain inequalities. This seems to have been very effective in addressing the issues.

https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/

If gender becomes a matter of self-identification, this approach becomes difficult.
Effective how? Such bald statistics lack the nuance to understand what is actually happening, and the media and feminists just perpetuate the "Wah! Men get paid more than us!" mantra.
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Old 15th July 2018, 09:31 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Illegal, but still happens...

UK has recently introduced a requirement for employers with more than 250 staff to report pay by gender and explain inequalities. This seems to have been very effective in addressing the issues.

https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/

If gender becomes a matter of self-identification, this approach becomes difficult.
Wow, that's idiotic idea. Law of unintended consequences (alongside of Brexit) will have field years with such stupidity.
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Old 15th July 2018, 03:01 PM   #52
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https://www.peaktrans.org/london-pri...ess-feminists/
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Old 16th July 2018, 04:55 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Warning: That link is to a TERF hate site.
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Old 16th July 2018, 05:06 AM   #54
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Why not let people read it for themselves and make up their own minds?
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Old 16th July 2018, 05:11 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Why not let people read it for themselves and make up their own minds?
I for one won't usually follow blind links posted without comment.

If you have something to say, say it here, and cite the link as a reference.
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Old 16th July 2018, 05:52 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
This is what every body keeps telling the alt left will happen when you insist on putting everyone into groups
Ehh, no.
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Old 16th July 2018, 06:00 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I for one won't usually follow blind links posted without comment.

If you have something to say, say it here, and cite the link as a reference.

The article explains the incident from the point of view of the women. There is no hate there and I entirely concur with the author.
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Old 16th July 2018, 06:48 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
It's ALT-right and CTRL-left.
Actually ALT-GR-right.
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Old 16th July 2018, 07:11 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The article explains the incident from the point of view of the women. There is no hate there and I entirely concur with the author.
What explanation do they give, and why do you agree?
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Old 16th July 2018, 08:20 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The article explains the incident from the point of view of the women. There is no hate there and I entirely concur with the author.
It's clearly anti-trans and pro-TERF. It's certainly trans-denialist, using the same sort of "arguments" that the American right-wing uses to stoke bogus fear of transgender people. It insists that transwomen are just predatory "men," and that transmen do not actually exist, but rather are misdiagnosed butch lesbians, this being deemed to be "lesbian eradication." It's ironic that one historically suppressed sexuality is looking to oppress another based on lazy stereotyping and denial that the "other" really exists.
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Old 16th July 2018, 10:10 AM   #61
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I'm more interested in the explanation for the serried ranks of blokes lining up to support the guys in dresses and bad wigs in their campaign to colonise and subvert women's protected spaces and groups.

No wait, I'm not. I know the explanation. Male solidarity, and you get to oppress women while still pretending to be right-on and progressive. Way to go, guys.
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Old 16th July 2018, 10:24 AM   #62
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lol "male solidarity" is your explanation for people who are pro-trans in this regard?
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Old 16th July 2018, 10:32 AM   #63
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Wait, what's the explanation for the women who are in support of this? Is that also "male solidarity?"

Internalized misogyny?
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Old 16th July 2018, 11:36 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm more interested in the explanation for the serried ranks of blokes lining up to support the guys in dresses and bad wigs in their campaign to colonise and subvert women's protected spaces and groups.

No wait, I'm not. I know the explanation. Male solidarity, and you get to oppress women while still pretending to be right-on and progressive. Way to go, guys.
Where is the evidence of such a "campaign"? It seems to be as much in the minds of the protestors as the myth of the predatory male pretending to be female of the US restroom wars. All the transgender people I know just want to get on with their lives in the face of society-wider prejudice.
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Old 16th July 2018, 11:41 AM   #65
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Haven't you heard? Most trans women are actually predatory men that want access to "women's spaces"

Oh wait, no they're not. This also only applies to trans women not trans men.
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Old 16th July 2018, 11:43 AM   #66
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There's obviously a great deal of selective reading going on here, so I'll leave you to your communal woman-bashing session.
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Old 16th July 2018, 11:46 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
There's obviously a great deal of selective reading going on here, so I'll leave you to your communal woman-bashing session.
You didn't even try for selective reading, you went to outright fabrication
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Old 16th July 2018, 11:47 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
guys in dresses and bad wigs in their campaign to colonise and subvert women's protected spaces and groups.
Evidence?
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Old 16th July 2018, 11:48 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
There's obviously a great deal of selective reading going on here, so I'll leave you to your communal woman-bashing session.
And who would a comment like "guys in dresses and bad wigs" be bashing?
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Old 16th July 2018, 12:04 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The need to group everyone comes from the uber left
The irony of this statement isn't deliberate, is it?
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Old 16th July 2018, 12:55 PM   #71
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The anti-trans bigotry here is eerily similar to the kinds of posts made by Skeptic Tank regarding POC and "multiculturalism." They come across the same way — the self-justification and self-victimhood... it's sad in a way.
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Old 17th July 2018, 04:51 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm more interested in the explanation for the serried ranks of blokes lining up to support the guys in dresses and bad wigs in their campaign to colonise and subvert women's protected spaces and groups.

No wait, I'm not. I know the explanation. Male solidarity, and you get to oppress women while still pretending to be right-on and progressive. Way to go, guys.


How does that explain people like me, who see the comments they make about transmen, who then think, "Well, that's nothing at all like what I've seen my own nephew going through the last few years"? Some of us actually know the people they're bashing, you know.

And yeah, it is bashing. I'm hoping my nephew never runs into anyone like this, because that would suck.
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Old 17th July 2018, 05:17 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
How does that explain people like me, who see the comments they make about transmen, who then think, "Well, that's nothing at all like what I've seen my own nephew going through the last few years"? Some of us actually know the people they're bashing, you know.

And yeah, it is bashing. I'm hoping my nephew never runs into anyone like this, because that would suck.
I've had the privilege of knowing some remarkable trans people, like Vandy Beth Glenn. The notion that she's a "man in a dress with a bad wig" is offensive and gross.

Fortunately, the scientific, medical, and legal system all disagree with that assessment.
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Old 17th July 2018, 07:47 AM   #74
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I think the blog that Rolfe is referring to (and blogs like it) are largely focused on people like Danielle Muscato, who declare themselves female and then do absolutely nothing to attempt to pass. I have no idea what Ms. Muscato's motives are, and I don't feel comfortable openly criticizing her in this post-gender world, but I do wonder what her deal is. People like her seem to be trolling, even if they aren't, and they make things very difficult for everyday transwomen who are just trying to fit in and get by.

I'm someone who isn't very bothered by nudity and things like that, but I think I would be somewhat startled if I ran into Ms. Muscato in a woman's locker room. She has evidently said in interviews that she is unable to begin hormone therapy at this time for health reasons. Okay, that makes sense. But why not have a shave? Wear a more "feminine" suit or something? I don't know. Anything. But see, now I open myself up to criticism from the postmodernists - "Bigot!" they thunder. "Are you reducing femininity to hairless faces and manner of dress?!"

I... uh... oh god... what?

It's a tricky issue.
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Old 17th July 2018, 07:56 AM   #75
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Trouble with those radfem sites is, they leave no room for categorization. The issue of transgender people and the issue of the postmodern "gender is a state of mind" crowd are two different issues. Radfem blogs and subreddits like Gender Critical quite happily mix them together and declare all transgender people mentally-ill fetishists (or self-harmers, in cases of transmen). This is offensive, obviously. This is what turns people away from any realistic concerns the feminists might actually have.

I can think of one example. Many radfem lesbians are making the claim that they are being called bigots for not wanting to be sexually intimate with transwomen who still have their penises. Is this happening outside of Tumblr? Who can say. But if that is really happening, it's terrible. The people re-labeling sexual orientation and preferences as bigotry are way off. They're not much different from the "conversion therapy" activists of times past. "Just soldier through this sex you don't want because it's the right thing to do." No, that isn't right.

Has this actually become a significant problem in real life, though? I don't know. I've had one person make this argument to me in the past (genital preferences are bigotry), and I'm not convinced they were serious. It was online, and Poe's law was very much in effect.

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Old 17th July 2018, 07:59 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Trouble with those radfem sites is, they leave no room for categorization. The issue of transgender people and the issue of the postmodern "gender is a state of mind" crowd are two different issues. Radfem blogs and subreddits like Gender Critical quite happily mix them together and declare all transgender people mentally-ill fetishists (or self-harmers, in cases of transmen). This is offensive, obviously. This is what turns people away from any realistic concerns the feminists might actually have.

I can think of one example. Many radfem lesbians are making the claim that they are being called bigots for not wanting to be sexually intimate with transwomen who still have their penises. Is this happening outside of Tumblr? Who can say. But if that is really happening, it's terrible. The people re-labeling sexual orientation and preferences as bigotry are way off. They're not much different from the "conversion therapy" activists of times past. "Just soldier through this sex you don't want because it's the right thing to do." No, that isn't right.

Has this actually become a significant problem in real life?
I've long held a rule that opinions that don't exist "in real life don't count and opinions that exist only online, on college campus's, think pieces, or other insular and detached realms are, at best, intellectual curiosities.

Yeah you can go on Tumblr for five minutes and find all sorts of "You're an evil cislord bigot if you refuse to have sex with a woman just because she has a penis" nonsense. I tend to ignore stuff like that.
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Old 17th July 2018, 08:56 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've long held a rule that opinions that don't exist "in real life don't count and opinions that exist only online, on college campus's, think pieces, or other insular and detached realms are, at best, intellectual curiosities.
What's the prophylactic barrier that prevents opinions expressed on a college campus from being carried off campus by the students?

Isn't the whole point of college to give young adults a set of ideas and experiences that they will bring forward with them into civil society? Is there any reason to think that ideas that are expressed openly on college campuses aren't held privately by many of the students even after they graduate?

The crazy radfem professor may choose to spew her craziness exclusively from the safe space of her ivory tower, but what of all her students? Do they leave her ideas behind when they graduate? Is that how we think college works? Is that how we think college should work?
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Old 17th July 2018, 08:57 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What's the prophylactic barrier that prevents opinions expressed on a college campus from being carried off campus by the students?
Essentially? The marketplace of ideas. Concepts which can only survive unopposed just... aren't worth factoring into the debate.

Is this some perfect exact science? No but it works more often than not.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:00 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
But see, now I open myself up to criticism from the postmodernists - "Bigot!" they thunder. "Are you reducing femininity to hairless faces and manner of dress?!"

I... uh... oh god... what?

It's a tricky issue.

The problem is, generalizing to an entire group based on the actions of one member, or just a few members, is literally the definition of prejudice. To me, it seems no different from my racist uncle, who demanded all Syrian refugees be thrown out of Canada because of one guy who beat his wife.

Yes, dealing with the one ******* causing problems might be difficult, but that's no reason to just declare a pox on all their houses.


Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I can think of one example. Many radfem lesbians are making the claim that they are being called bigots for not wanting to be sexually intimate with transwomen who still have their penises.

I have to ask, like cismen who make the same claims, why are they going out of their way to make a point of this? Why do they feel the need for a flamboyant public declaration of their preferences, before even being approached with any such offers? Why can't they just say, "No thanks!" to the individual people who make individual requests?

This whole, "I don't want to be tricked into sleeping with a man!" thing is, again, exactly the argument that ******** make when they claim a "Gay Panic" defense for bashing transwomen.

And of course, this whole "woman with a penis" argument does absolutely nothing to explain why they also bash transmen.

Them just being actual bigots explains it all quite well, though.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:10 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
I have to ask, like cismen who make the same claims, why are they going out of their way to make a point of this? Why do they feel the need for a flamboyant public declaration of their preferences, before even being approached with any such offers? Why can't they just say, "No thanks!" to the individual people who make individual requests?

This whole, "I don't want to be tricked into sleeping with a man!" thing is, again, exactly the argument that ******** make when they claim a "Gay Panic" defense for bashing transwomen.

And of course, this whole "woman with a penis" argument does absolutely nothing to explain why they also bash transmen.

Them just being actual bigots explains it all quite well, though.
I'm not in any way defending the bigotry, but I must offer one quick correction. The lesbians I am quoting were mostly referring to accusations of bigotry they experienced after the fact, either on failed dates or following them. Did these events really happen as relayed though? I have no way of knowing.

The women on Gender Critical (for example) obviously have a strong anti-trans agenda in general, so I sometimes have trouble taking the details of their more outrageous stories at face-value. A lot of the events are just a little too convenient. To hear these women tell it, every transwoman they know is a sexually pushy, bearded antifeminist who lectures them all day and tries to feel them up all night. Literally none of the transwomen I've ever known were like that. Not one. They were just people.

So I do wonder sometimes if certain GC people aren't taking crazy posts they've seen on Tumblr and presenting them as actual meatspace narratives that totally happened, in order to influence fence-sitters and advance an anti-trans cultural agenda.

Even if their stories are completely true, I see them as having nothing to do with regular transpeople who are just trying to use the bathroom. They can come pee in my room, for all I care. They're welcome to be nude absolutely anywhere I am. I don't care if they were born a dolphin. In case that wasn't clear.
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