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Old 8th November 2018, 01:54 AM   #1
Captain_Swoop
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Man, 69, brings lawsuit to lower his age by 20 years

A Dutch pensioner has started a legal battle to legally change his age and boost his dating prospects.

Emile Ratelband, 69, wants to shift his birthday from 11 March 1949 to 11 March 1969, comparing the change to identifying as being transgender.

"You can change your name. You can change your gender. Why not your age?" he told Dutch paper De Telegraaf.

A local court in the city of Arnhem, south-east of Amsterdam, is expected to rule on the case within four weeks.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46133262
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Old 8th November 2018, 05:40 AM   #2
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They should totally do it...then arrest him for pension fraud and sentence him to 20 years exactly.
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Old 8th November 2018, 05:42 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
A Dutch pensioner has started a legal battle to legally change his age and boost his dating prospects.

Emile Ratelband, 69, wants to shift his birthday from 11 March 1949 to 11 March 1969, comparing the change to identifying as being transgender.

"You can change your name. You can change your gender. Why not your age?" he told Dutch paper De Telegraaf.

A local court in the city of Arnhem, south-east of Amsterdam, is expected to rule on the case within four weeks.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46133262
The bitch of it, as ridiculous as his suit is, he has a point. If your mens rea can alter objective reality, why not for age?
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Old 8th November 2018, 05:42 AM   #4
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Looks like we did Time Travel wrong all these years.
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Old 8th November 2018, 08:46 AM   #5
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Ah, but could a 20-year-old identify as 65 and start collecting their state pension?
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:07 AM   #6
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Sadly, he's quite correct in his reasoning. Some absurdities, however, are just not PC.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:22 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The bitch of it, as ridiculous as his suit is, he has a point. If your mens rea can alter objective reality, why not for age?
If I self identify as Bill Gates, do I have access to his bank card?

Sometimes your self identification just doesn't matter.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:25 AM   #8
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"Self identification" never matters, period. If you can't point at some meaningful, objective difference that your "identify" changes about yourself, it is literally nothing. It's a distinction not even pretending to make a difference and that this stupid concept keeps popping up and causing drama and feeding the outrage machine annoys me to no end.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:29 AM   #9
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Yeah, I have a lot of sympathy for transgender people. It must be brutal to feel like you are in the wrong body. But there is no logical end to how far this can be taken.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:33 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, I have a lot of sympathy for transgender people. It must be brutal to feel like you are in the wrong body. But there is no logical end to how far this can be taken.
I want to keep the baggage of that discussion as low as possible (yeah I know since that's the point the guy in the OP is making, so we can't really separate them all that much) but to me "Wanting to be the other gender" makes perfect sense. That's a tangible difference. It's a difference in opinion of how you want the world to be. That makes perfect sense to me.

Literally just saying so and becoming it to the point where we've had to functionally create a... "Gender Soul" is where I get lost.

But that's a discussion we've had multiple, usually unpleasant, times on this board.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:48 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I want to keep the baggage of that discussion as low as possible (yeah I know since that's the point the guy in the OP is making, so we can't really separate them all that much) but to me "Wanting to be the other gender" makes perfect sense. That's a tangible difference. It's a difference in opinion of how you want the world to be. That makes perfect sense to me.

Literally just saying so and becoming it to the point where we've had to functionally create a... "Gender Soul" is where I get lost.

But that's a discussion we've had multiple, usually unpleasant, times on this board.
That's fair, it would likely fly off topic.

So the guy wants to have a different age to score with the ladies. This isn't an identification issue then. Your age is simply how many times your carcass has traveled around the Sun. It is no more changeable than any other mathematical count. additionally, he just wants this change for practical convenience, not because he believes himself to be younger. No soup for him.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:50 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's fair, it would likely fly off topic.

So the guy wants to have a different age to score with the ladies. This isn't an identification issue then. Your age is simply how many times your carcass has traveled around the Sun. It is no more changeable than any other mathematical count. additionally, he just wants this change for practical convenience, not because he believes himself to be younger. No soup for him.
Have things changed so much since I dated? Is ID required while dating at that age?
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:54 AM   #13
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This is an admitted stunt to make a point, I wouldn't try to read too much into the "practical" applications of it.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:55 AM   #14
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And apparently you have to put in your real date of birth in a dating app.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:56 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Have things changed so much since I dated? Is ID required while dating at that age?
He says he gets no hits on his Tinder app because of his age, and you probably don't want to start off with someone by posting lies.

In a bar or whatever, he does look like he would pass for a guy in his 40s. Except for that scarfy thing he is wearing in the article. Yech.
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:03 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
He says he gets no hits on his Tinder app because of his age, and you probably don't want to start off with someone by posting lies.

In a bar or whatever, he does look like he would pass for a guy in his 40s. Except for that scarfy thing he is wearing in the article. Yech.
really? I'm 49 and I hope to hell I don't look as old as that guy
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:03 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This is an admitted stunt to make a point, I would read too much into the "practical" applications of it.
Right, but is his point valid? I would say no. You can't identify as a different height or weight for the same reason. It is a mathematical measurement, like age.
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:06 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
really? I'm 49 and I hope to hell I don't look as old as that guy
True. How about he looks less ancient than some 69 year olds, and older than some late 40s? Could pull off 50ish. If he loses the scarf.
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:08 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Right, but is his point valid? I would say no. You can't identify as a different height or weight for the same reason. It is a mathematical measurement, like age.
Well technically, weight and how many years old you are depends on location really.
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:13 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Well technically, weight and how many years old you are depends on location really.
Damn. I keep forgetting that on this forum, your weight and age on Pluto may arise as a counterpoint to claims. Conceded.

eta: height varies too, if you spend time in orbit your spine decompresses. Technically, if you are close to the equator you may be shorter too due to the slightly increased mass...
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:21 AM   #21
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Oops sorry, I forgot to put the after my post, haha.
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:38 AM   #22
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Geez. Just do what everyone else does in their profile.

Lie.
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Old 8th November 2018, 11:22 AM   #23
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Knob.

"Mr Ratelband, a media personality and motivational guru, converted to Buddhism earlier this year and is a trainer in neurolinguistic programming."

I rest my case.
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Old 8th November 2018, 11:52 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This is an admitted stunt to make a point, I wouldn't try to read too much into the "practical" applications of it.


Yes, and part of the point is, we actually weigh costs and benefits when deciding which of these things should be validated by society, via governmental action.

For transgender folks, the costs to society are fairly minimal, while the benefits to the individuals can be enormous. So it's to an overall benefit to permit this sort of "self identification".

But with "age identification", while there may be benefits to the individual, there are also serious costs to society at large. As mentioned above, what about public pensions? They're carefully structured so as to remain solvent over a time span of decades, so allowing people to opt in or out based solely on their own "identification" cause problems.

There are also other problems. We have minimum ages for driving, drinking, voting, signing binding contracts, and sexual consent. Letting 10 years olds "self identify" as older for any of those purposes would clearly be a bad idea.

And it gets worse. What if a pedophile "self identifies" as a younger person, to exploit "Romeo and Juliet" provisions in consent laws?

I'm sure there are other problems we could identify.

Lack of success on Tinder seems a fairly minor benefit, when weighed against the potential costs.
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Old 8th November 2018, 12:04 PM   #25
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He'd have an easier time just suing younger women for age discrimination when they refuse dates.
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:40 PM   #26
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Identity, identity..identity. Every where you look there has to be identity
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Old 10th November 2018, 12:45 AM   #27
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*sigh*

The big problem here is that this guy, and a lot of posters, especially the more conservative ones, do not understand what Transgenderism is. No one who is transgender wants to change their gender, because to them, they already *are* their target gender. What they want to do is change their outward appearance to match with their real gender.

The problem is that far too many people think that:

a) Your gender is determined by what is between your legs, and
b) "changing gender" is a choice because the person just decides to be the other gender.

Here's a thought experiment to try.

We are getting close to the time where computers will be powerful enough to perfectly simulate a person's brain. Let's say that we have achieved it and that you are the first person to have your brain simulated. Once the simulated brain is created we will be feeding it inputs to create its environment so that to all intents and purposes, the simulation believes it is you and has all of your thoughts, memories and behaviours.

I now ask it what Gender it is. What will it answer?

Of course it will answer the same way that you would, but now consider this, it has no body, there is nothing between its legs and no legs to have anything between. Nor does it have sex hormones, or DNA. This then shows that Gender is something that is not derived from any of these things, but rather it is something created by the brain, in this case a simulated one. What do you think would happen to said simulated brain if we used the inputs to tell it that the body it was in was the opposite of what its brain was telling it?

This is what Gender Dysphoria is. It is where your brain is telling you one thing, but your body is something different.

Now if we were to do the same with a Transgender person, their simulated brain would give their gender as the opposite of their physical body, and if we created a body of the opposite sex for it, then it would accept that this was its true nature.

We could also show something else with the simulation. If I was to ask how old the Simulation was, it would obviously give me your age, even though its real age was only from the time of the simulation being started to my asking the question. This would be a real example of Age Dysphoria.

Now the guy in the article is not suffering from this, yes he has kept his body in good shape, but it's still a 69 years old, and his mind is also fully aware that he is 69 years old, there is no dysphoria between the state of his brain and the state of his body, he just wants to lie about his age to get more girls.

Personally I find that his claim is really offensive as he is claiming that his wanting to lie about his age is just the same as a Transgender person, in that they are just lying about their gender, and that is rather disgusting.
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Old 10th November 2018, 03:19 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
*sigh*

The big problem here is that this guy, and a lot of posters, especially the more conservative ones, do not understand what Transgenderism is. No one who is transgender wants to change their gender, because to them, they already *are* their target gender.
That's right. To them. I can only speak for myself but I imagine others' views are similar, that subjective identification is fine, and we should respect a person's wishes in this area, but they don't override biology.

As for a person's age, the state of a person's cells are affected by genetics and lifestyle choices. A person who is 60 might, through good genetics and clean living, objectively have the physical characteristics of one who is 40.
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Old 10th November 2018, 03:27 AM   #29
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I was going to list the ways in which your thought experiment failed but I don't have the time.
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Old 10th November 2018, 03:27 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
*sigh*

The big problem here is that this guy, and a lot of posters, especially the more conservative ones, do not understand what Transgenderism is. No one who is transgender wants to change their gender, because to them, they already *are* their target gender. What they want to do is change their outward appearance to match with their real gender.

The problem is that far too many people think that:

a) Your gender is determined by what is between your legs, and
b) "changing gender" is a choice because the person just decides to be the other gender.

Here's a thought experiment to try.

We are getting close to the time where computers will be powerful enough to perfectly simulate a person's brain. Let's say that we have achieved it and that you are the first person to have your brain simulated. Once the simulated brain is created we will be feeding it inputs to create its environment so that to all intents and purposes, the simulation believes it is you and has all of your thoughts, memories and behaviours.

I now ask it what Gender it is. What will it answer?

Of course it will answer the same way that you would, but now consider this, it has no body, there is nothing between its legs and no legs to have anything between. Nor does it have sex hormones, or DNA. This then shows that Gender is something that is not derived from any of these things, but rather it is something created by the brain, in this case a simulated one. What do you think would happen to said simulated brain if we used the inputs to tell it that the body it was in was the opposite of what its brain was telling it?

This is what Gender Dysphoria is. It is where your brain is telling you one thing, but your body is something different.

Now if we were to do the same with a Transgender person, their simulated brain would give their gender as the opposite of their physical body, and if we created a body of the opposite sex for it, then it would accept that this was its true nature.

We could also show something else with the simulation. If I was to ask how old the Simulation was, it would obviously give me your age, even though its real age was only from the time of the simulation being started to my asking the question. This would be a real example of Age Dysphoria.

Now the guy in the article is not suffering from this, yes he has kept his body in good shape, but it's still a 69 years old, and his mind is also fully aware that he is 69 years old, there is no dysphoria between the state of his brain and the state of his body, he just wants to lie about his age to get more girls.

Personally I find that his claim is really offensive as he is claiming that his wanting to lie about his age is just the same as a Transgender person, in that they are just lying about their gender, and that is rather disgusting.
Far out Phantom

AI is not any where near matching a human

And you can't seriously be using a hypothetical case that if it was it would do this hypothetically.

If you want to use that argument and if you had a space invaders computer game that refused to play it as it felt like pac man would you go OK or reboot it.
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Old 10th November 2018, 04:08 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
That's right. To them. I can only speak for myself but I imagine others' views are similar, that subjective identification is fine, and we should respect a person's wishes in this area, but they don't override biology.
Is the brain not biological? We're not talking about a person's wishes, they know their gender just as you know your gender. You didn't wake up one morning and choose to be your gender, and nor did they, it is created by the biological state of their brain, just as your gender is biologically created by the state of your brain. The difference is in you, your brain, tour DNA, and what is between your legs all agree. That just isn't the case with everyone on the planet.

Quote:
As for a person's age, the state of a person's cells are affected by genetics and lifestyle choices. A person who is 60 might, through good genetics and clean living, objectively have the physical characteristics of one who is 40.
Again incorrect, regardless how well you look after your body, your DNA ages through damage that we can't current control (yes I know that they have done so in mice and are trying to in humans). You might be a fit as a person that is younger, you might even look as young, but your DNA will still have the traits of a person your own age simply because you have lived that long.
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Old 10th November 2018, 04:12 AM   #32
PhantomWolf
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Far out Phantom

AI is not any where near matching a human

And you can't seriously be using a hypothetical case that if it was it would do this hypothetically.

If you want to use that argument and if you had a space invaders computer game that refused to play it as it felt like pac man would you go OK or reboot it.
A) I'm not talking about A.I. I'm talking about a simulation of a person's brain, these are very different things

B) I said it was a thought experiment, what part of that didn't you get?

C) In the experiment it is entirely possible to determine what the simulation would say because it would be an exact double of you and do exactly as you would, that is the purpose of a simulation.

D) The fact you would rather argue about the hypothetical rather than working to understand why I was using it and what I said shows exactly your unwilling to even try and understand anyone that doesn't fit into the standards you demand that everyone fit into.
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I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)


Last edited by PhantomWolf; 10th November 2018 at 04:17 AM.
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Old 10th November 2018, 04:22 AM   #33
baron
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Is the brain not biological? We're not talking about a person's wishes, they know their gender just as you know your gender. You didn't wake up one morning and choose to be your gender, and nor did they, it is created by the biological state of their brain, just as your gender is biologically created by the state of your brain. The difference is in you, your brain, tour DNA, and what is between your legs all agree. That just isn't the case with everyone on the planet.
People self identify as wolves and fairies (I'm not joking, look it up). They too are completely earnest in their beliefs and they too user their brains to imagine their gender / species states.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Again incorrect, regardless how well you look after your body, your DNA ages through damage that we can't current control (yes I know that they have done so in mice and are trying to in humans). You might be a fit as a person that is younger, you might even look as young, but your DNA will still have the traits of a person your own age simply because you have lived that long.
No, that's completely wrong. DNA causes different ageing rates in individuals. Sometimes these differences are extreme, for example in cases of progeria, but even in the absence of diagnosed genetic disorders the ageing of cells can vary by decades over the life spans of disparate persons.
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Old 10th November 2018, 04:26 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
*sigh*

The big problem here is that this guy, and a lot of posters, especially the more conservative ones, do not understand what Transgenderism is. No one who is transgender wants to change their gender, because to them, they already *are* their target gender. What they want to do is change their outward appearance to match with their real gender.
But the issue is that their "real" gender is, to them, one thing, and to others, somewhat objectively, another.

So while I fully support any --adult-- who wants to change their body to match what they want to be, it doesn't mean that their self-identification represents the "real", especially pre-transition.

We do understand, but understanding doesn't mean agreeing with every related claim.
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Old 10th November 2018, 04:27 AM   #35
cullennz
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
A) I'm not talking about A.I. I'm talking about a simulation of a person's brain, these are very different things

B) I said it was a thought experiment, what part of that didn't you get?

C) In the experiment it is entirely possible to determine what the simulation would say because it would be an exact double of you and do exactly as you would, that is the purpose of a simulation.

D) The fact you would rather argue about the hypothetical rather than working to understand why I was using it and what I said shows exactly your unwilling to even try and understand anyone that doesn't fit into the standards you demand that everyone fit into.

I'm perfectly willing to try to understand everyone, but I fail to see how understanding someones feelings and rolling with it as much as poss, means I have to actually change basic fact that a dude can't magically become a woman.

Because they can't

They can become a trans woman or a trans man and good luck with that.
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Old 10th November 2018, 05:00 AM   #36
Damien Evans
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
That's right. To them. I can only speak for myself but I imagine others' views are similar, that subjective identification is fine, and we should respect a person's wishes in this area, but they don't override biology.

As for a person's age, the state of a person's cells are affected by genetics and lifestyle choices. A person who is 60 might, through good genetics and clean living, objectively have the physical characteristics of one who is 40.
Speaking of, did you know that multiple studies have shown that brainwaves of transgender people match more with the gender they identify with than with their assigned gender at birth?
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Old 10th November 2018, 05:01 AM   #37
Damien Evans
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But the issue is that their "real" gender is, to them, one thing, and to others, somewhat objectively, another.

So while I fully support any --adult-- who wants to change their body to match what they want to be, it doesn't mean that their self-identification represents the "real", especially pre-transition.

We do understand, but understanding doesn't mean agreeing with every related claim.
You're conflating gender and sex.
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i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp.
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Old 10th November 2018, 05:22 AM   #38
p0lka
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
You're conflating gender and sex.
So are transgenders aren't they?
Why do some transgenders want to change their bodies to look like the opposite sex if its about gender and not sex?
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Old 10th November 2018, 05:29 AM   #39
The Moog
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
So are transgenders aren't they?
How so?

Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Why do some transgenders want to change their bodies to look like the opposite sex if its about gender and not sex?
Because they feel happier that way.
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Old 10th November 2018, 06:07 AM   #40
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Age isn't just a characteristic of the body, it's the history of actions and events. I was born in 1976, that's when I entered the world and began doing and experiencing things. No matter what my body is like I can't erase the past and claim those events didn't happen. Comparing span of existence to gender isn't appropriate because gender is just a characteristic of the physical form, whereas age is the act of having existed.
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