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Old 24th November 2018, 01:25 PM   #361
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Living in a neighborhood where white people aren't the majority, doesn't somehow inoculate the white residents from being racist or making racist decisions. It could conceivably even give them something of a siege mentality that might exacerbate their anxieties.
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:26 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
OMFG. Do you really expect your interpretation to be taken seriously, given the fiction you wrote about his appearance/behavior even before this video?

Attentive readers aren't going to swallow this sort of musing, particularly when sourced from you, a documented liar.
One moment.
https://ibb.co/dDDntwb

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Old 24th November 2018, 01:31 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Living in a neighborhood where white people aren't the majority, doesn't somehow inoculate the white residents from being racist or making racist decisions. It could conceivably even give them something of a siege mentality that might exacerbate their anxieties.
Under Seige III: Revenge of the Kirkland Crackers
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Old 24th November 2018, 02:01 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
This just gets weirder and weirder.

I see a still lifted from the video, not the video. Before I jump to a hasty conclusion, has there been an error? Wrong link? My browser is wonky? Or did you form your highly impressionistic opinions -- smears, to be clear -- based on a single, blurry, still image?

"Shady dude"
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Old 24th November 2018, 02:01 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post

Anyway, of course fear could be a factor. The question is, is that fear rational? And what prompts it?
Fear is the most likely explanation, and the only real question is if racism was (in whole or in part) at the root of the fear.
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Old 24th November 2018, 02:07 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
So the servers aren't your run of the mill white supremacist racists, they're white and Asian supremacist racists, kind of like female, yogurt dispensing Jared Taylors?
Please! Winter approaches. Straw supplies run short. Think of the manger scenes.
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Old 24th November 2018, 02:09 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
This just gets weirder and weirder.

I see a still lifted from the video, not the video. Before I jump to a hasty conclusion, has there been an error? Wrong link? My browser is wonky? Or did you form your highly impressionistic opinions -- smears, to be clear -- based on a single, blurry, still image?

"Shady dude"
I can hold your hand; just ask. Here's another still of the shady dude slouching and watching a kid and mom:
https://ibb.co/x6WqL7t

You may be correct that my opinions and observations are incorrect lies.
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Old 24th November 2018, 02:12 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
There's one thing we know with certainty: Once the cops arrived and heard the perfectly valid explanation, there was no apology, there was no free yogurt gift card. Those are things that normal, decent merchants would do upon discovering they had treated a customer poorly.
Agreed. The cops should have figured out what the deal was, apologized on the spot to dude, told the workers everything was fine, and the owner should have gotten the workers to give dude a gift card or something.
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Old 24th November 2018, 02:12 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
I can hold your hand; just ask. Here's another still of the shady dude slouching and watching a kid and mom:
https://ibb.co/x6WqL7t

You may be correct that my opinions and observations are incorrect lies.
Hold my hand yet a little while longer and explain what about this dude is "shady" to you (besides his skin color, of course).
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Old 24th November 2018, 02:26 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Agreed. The cops should have figured out what the deal was, apologized on the spot to dude, told the workers everything was fine, and the owner should have gotten the workers to give dude a gift card or something.
Put yourself in the cop's position. They were requested to ask an unwanted person to move along, without the benefit of the information we have.

Might they have thought that although Ragland was supposed to be there, he really was leering at the employees, and they still wanted him to get lost?
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Old 24th November 2018, 02:36 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Put yourself in the cop's position. They were requested to ask an unwanted person to move along, without the benefit of the information we have.

Might they have thought that although Ragland was supposed to be there, he really was leering at the employees, and they still wanted him to get lost?
Well, we could do this all day!

Ooh I just thought of another one: maybe the police officers are themselves under court orders requiring supervised visitation, and resentful of the fact someone has to be there watching them while they spend time with their children, so they decided to take it out on this guy by making him move along despite his propriety in being there!
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Old 24th November 2018, 02:41 PM   #372
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Old 24th November 2018, 03:06 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Well, we could do this all day!

Ooh I just thought of another one: maybe the police officers are themselves under court orders requiring supervised visitation, and resentful of the fact someone has to be there watching them while they spend time with their children, so they decided to take it out on this guy by making him move along despite his propriety in being there!
The difference is that my proposal is pretty much what would happen. Some posters think cops are Sherlock Holmes. They are not. From their POV, they were asked to send a creeper packing. So they did what they were asked to do. Is there a need to straw that up?
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Old 24th November 2018, 03:08 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
I can hold your hand; just ask. Here's another still of the shady dude slouching and watching a kid and mom:
https://ibb.co/x6WqL7t

You may be correct that my opinions and observations are incorrect lies.
Still nothing that couldn't have been resolved by speaking to him and them. In fact it is shown he is sitting in a prime spot to facillitate his job where all he has to do is look up periodically, and he can likely hear them while he is reading his phone. It is where I would sit if I was monitoring them. By reading his phone and sitting away he is giving them space and trying not to seem nosy by staring at them.
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Old 24th November 2018, 03:14 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The difference is that my proposal is pretty much what would happen. Some posters think cops are Sherlock Holmes. They are not. From their POV, they were asked to send a creeper packing. So they did what they were asked to do. Is there a need to straw that up?
But it requires only very basic investigation skills to attend a job such as this. Speak to those present (the complainants, the POI and the witnesses), then return to the complainants to advise of the updated scenario and seek further or new instruction. Cops and Law enforcement are not supposed to be robots. A man sitting there can be on a legitimate job, A gun can turn out to be a toy truck, A ghost in a field can turn out to be a goat, a haunted house can just be a house with bad pipes. Communication is a part of a police persons tools.

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Old 24th November 2018, 03:24 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
But it requires only very basic investigation skills to attend a job such as this. Speak to those present (the complainants, the POI and the witnesses), then return to the complainants to advise of the updated scenario and seek further or new instruction. Cops and Law enforcement are not supposed to be robots. A man sitting there can be on a legitimate job, A gun can turn out to be a toy truck, A ghost in a field can turn out to be a goat, a haunted house can just be a house with bad pipes. The police should do their jobs without requiring someoner to insert punch cards with new programming for every subtlety changed scenario.
Agreed, all true. But the police weren't privy to the managers call details. They were sent out to ask him to leave. For all they would know at the time, he may have had business there with the mom and son, but was making the workers uncomfortable enough to warrant a call. I don't think they would have been given enough details for them to even fully establish all the background. They were requested to move him along and they did.

Perhaps if Ragland spoke up and objected, they might have asked some more questions and drug the employees over to sort it out properly?

Eta: that Ragland evidently got up and got out fairly quickly may have stopped the police from digging a little deeper. Then again, that can also get you shot.
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Old 24th November 2018, 03:28 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Put yourself in the cop's position. They were requested to ask an unwanted person to move along, without the benefit of the information we have.

Might they have thought that although Ragland was supposed to be there, he really was leering at the employees, and they still wanted him to get lost?
I’ll ask you. In what jurisdiction anywhere in the world are cops required to comply with esch and every request by a citizen?

The cops failed in their duty comprehensively.
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Old 24th November 2018, 03:45 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I’ll ask you. In what jurisdiction anywhere in the world are cops required to comply with esch and every request by a citizen?

The cops failed in their duty comprehensively.
Again, from their POV, the cops probably saw themselves as safeguarding the women from a creep. We know that was not what was happening, but I can honestly see this as a well meaning misunderstanding all around.

Except for Raglands call to put Cruz out of business and take over his properties. No misunderstandings there!
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Old 24th November 2018, 03:50 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Put yourself in the cop's position. They were requested to ask an unwanted person to move along, without the benefit of the information we have.

Might they have thought that although Ragland was supposed to be there, he really was leering at the employees, and they still wanted him to get lost?
If the cops were given the chance to verify with the woman with the kid that dude was there with them, and he was with the government for a supervised visitation, everything "suspicious" ceases to exist.

The cops were not taking "orders" from anyone. They have authority to use their own judgment in those situations. They, upon talking to dude, had all the info we have.

If the cops had told the employees what was up, I'm sure the employees would have been like "Oooh! Ok, cool. Nevermind, but thanks for coming out!"
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Old 24th November 2018, 03:51 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Again, from their POV, the cops probably saw themselves as safeguarding the women from a creep. We know that was not what was happening, but I can honestly see this as a well meaning misunderstanding all around.

Except for Raglands call to put Cruz out of business and take over his properties. No misunderstandings there!
What? What is well meaning about the humiliating treatment ot Raglands?
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Old 24th November 2018, 03:52 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
You may be correct that my opinions and observations are incorrect lies.
Close but no cigar. There's no "may" about it. You added a gun where there was no gun. Own it.

(Your sentence mashes up "opinion", "observation", and "lie" in a way that doesn't make sense to me but I assume I get your gist.)
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Old 24th November 2018, 03:55 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Again, from their POV, the cops probably saw themselves as safeguarding the women from a creep. We know that was not what was happening, but I can honestly see this as a well meaning misunderstanding all around.
No.

Just telling dude to leave was the lazy, easy, shortcut way of "responding" to the call. It would have taken 30 seconds for them to talk to the dude and the mom and verify that nothing suspicious was going on and communicate the info to the employees.
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Old 24th November 2018, 03:58 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
If the cops were given the chance to verify with the woman with the kid that dude was there with them, and he was with the government for a supervised visitation, everything "suspicious" ceases to exist.

The cops were not taking "orders" from anyone. They have authority to use their own judgment in those situations. They, upon talking to dude, had all the info we have.

If the cops had told the employees what was up, I'm sure the employees would have been like "Oooh! Ok, cool. Nevermind, but thanks for coming out!"
Right, but as I said upthread, I am very sympathetic to women who feel like they are being preyed upon, so I wouldn't blame them for staying out of sight while all this was going on.

The cops didn't have much information that I am aware of. They were given a justifiable reason why he was there, and not eating. They were not, AFAIK, given any reason to clear Jim of (perceived) leering. Ragland split without demanding an explanation, so none was pursued
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Old 24th November 2018, 04:02 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
They were requested to ask an unwanted person to move along, without the benefit of the information we have.
This, from the article, is enough information:

Quote:
“Ragland had two associates (female adult and male juvenile) with him, who stated they were there with him for visitation,” the report says. They were asked to leave anyway, and they did.
If the cops had just conveyed the info from sentence #1 to the employees, sentence #2 wouldn't have happened.
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Old 24th November 2018, 04:03 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Might they have thought that although Ragland was supposed to be there, he really was leering at the employees, and they still wanted him to get lost?
This is world class bizarre speculation. I mean really. It lies unambiguously on the path to madness. Just think of the goofy nonsense that could be posted in the same vein.

Maybe this, maybe that, maybe there's such a thing as a human and a pretzel spawning an offspring.
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Old 24th November 2018, 04:04 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Right, but as I said upthread, I am very sympathetic to women who feel like they are being preyed upon, so I wouldn't blame them for staying out of sight while all this was going on.

The cops didn't have much information that I am aware of. They were given a justifiable reason why he was there, and not eating. They were not, AFAIK, given any reason to clear Jim of (perceived) leering. Ragland split without demanding an explanation, so none was pursued
The idea that the employees ran away when the cops showed up is outlandish.

The cops had enough info to know that what seemed suspicious actually wasn't.

The cops chose to handle the situation poorly.
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Old 24th November 2018, 04:10 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
This, from the article, is enough information:



If the cops had just conveyed the info from sentence #1 to the employees, sentence #2 wouldn't have happened.
Right. That justifies why he was there.

Now, why does that exclude that he had every right to be there, but was additionally creeping on the workers? From what the police knew at the time, of course.
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Old 24th November 2018, 04:21 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The idea that the employees ran away when the cops showed up is outlandish.

The cops had enough info to know that what seemed suspicious actually wasn't.

The cops chose to handle the situation poorly.
Its outlandish to stay away from someone you think is leering at you? Really?
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Old 24th November 2018, 04:23 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I’ll ask you. In what jurisdiction anywhere in the world are cops required to comply with esch and every request by a citizen?

The cops failed in their duty comprehensively.
In the US a business can refuse service for multiple non-discriminatory reasons. I assume they can also refuse to not-service them (loitering ). The police don't get to vote on a business's clientele.
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Old 24th November 2018, 04:29 PM   #390
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I've patiently gone through 10 pages of this thread and still cannot understand the mental hoops the participants seem to have jumped through.

Way back when, when I worked in a "restaurant" (i.e. Fast food chain) if someone came in and sat down at a table alone, the assumption would ALWAYS BE that they were waiting for one ore more friends to join them.

If someone is sitting at a table, looking at their phone, in this more modern world, I'd be even more likely to assume that they were waiting for a friend or friends.
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Old 24th November 2018, 04:39 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
This is world class bizarre speculation. I mean really. It lies unambiguously on the path to madness. Just think of the goofy nonsense that could be posted in the same vein.

Maybe this, maybe that, maybe there's such a thing as a human and a pretzel spawning an offspring.
If you find this bizzare, you have lost your grip in an effort to score points.

The cops were told a customer was creeping on the workers. Why is it exclusive that he could have still been creeping on them, while still having every rght to be there?

This is not speculation. It is the information the cops had at the time. Can you consider that point without snottiness and insults?
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Old 24th November 2018, 04:41 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
In the US a business can refuse service for multiple non-discriminatory reasons. I assume they can also refuse to not-service them (loitering ). The police don't get to vote on a business's clientele.
So what? I’ll ask again where are Police required to respond to a citizen’s request? In this situation, a request to remove someone who was working in a court-sanctioned role?

The police acted badly, thus the apology.

But what I’m dealing with here is not apologies, it’s apologetics.
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Old 24th November 2018, 04:46 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
In the US a business can refuse service for multiple non-discriminatory reasons. I assume they can also refuse to not-service them (loitering ). The police don't get to vote on a business's clientele.
e.g. a "shady dude". Not the best adjective here in this context, Mr Salk.
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Old 24th November 2018, 04:52 PM   #394
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"Ogling," "leering," "creeping"...May I suggest the next inflammatory, speculative verb: "Eye-raping."
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Old 24th November 2018, 05:01 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
"Ogling," "leering," "creeping"...May I suggest the next inflammatory, speculative verb: "Eye-raping."
It's shorthand. I don't think anyone else finds it that confusing.
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Old 24th November 2018, 05:15 PM   #396
Babbylonian
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's shorthand. I don't think anyone else finds it that confusing.
It negatively characterizes the actions of someone who was claimed to also be looking at his phone a lot (something that has also been characterized as odd behavior), and it impugns the man's character. Believe me, I'm not confused at all by your intent.
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Old 24th November 2018, 05:19 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I’ll ask you. In what jurisdiction anywhere in the world are cops required to comply with esch and every request by a citizen?

The cops failed in their duty comprehensively.
If the cops get called and they end up in a situation where an owner of private property wants someone off their private property, what should they do?

I would suggest they wouldn't just walk away, what do you think they should do?

EDIT: Bear in mind it's private property.

Last edited by p0lka; 24th November 2018 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 24th November 2018, 05:22 PM   #398
Babbylonian
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
If the cops get called and they end up in a situation where an owner of private property wants someone off their private property, what should they do?

I would suggest they wouldn't just walk away, what do you think they should do?
Determine the facts of the situation and then encourage a compromise if the facts warrant and the "private" property in question is otherwise open to the public.
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Old 24th November 2018, 05:29 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Determine the facts of the situation and then encourage a compromise if the facts warrant and the "private" property in question is otherwise open to the public.
But it's not, all these shopping centres and shops etc tend to let the public in, but they still treat it like private property the moment they want you gone.
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Old 24th November 2018, 05:37 PM   #400
Babbylonian
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
But it's not, all these shopping centres and shops etc tend to let the public in, but they still treat it like private property the moment they want you gone.
I answer your question and you want to play rhetorical games about public versus private? Stores and restaurants are simply not fully private. That's the bottom line. Once they throw open their doors, owners enter into a social contract to allow strangers onto their property. Yes, they can impose limits (within reason), but there's an understanding that those limits won't involve illegal discrimination and will have good purpose.

Again, in this case, once they knew the situation there was no further good reason for those in charge of the property to throw this particular person out. There was also good reason for the police officers to tell those in control of the property that they were acting badly and that they should consider letting the party remain because that would be the right thing to do.


ETA: I have been in a position to ask people to leave a store property for which I was responsible. I have also been in a position to relent when a good reason for someone's continued presence was offered. Being a decent human being just isn't that ******* hard.

Last edited by Babbylonian; 24th November 2018 at 05:40 PM.
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