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Old 21st November 2018, 11:51 AM   #81
rockinkt
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Few things here

a) What is with the US news stories and repeating that someone is a veteran as if it is supposed to give them a status that is above others?

b) I have read a lot of these US "......while black" threads, and while I have been sympathetic towards the vast majority of the people harrassed, this has to be up there as one of the least seemingly racially motivate. The race of the bloke was even mentioned till he was asked for a description

c) The owner wasn't in the store and obviously had remote access to the video, and frankly just sounded like a good bloke who had been rung by panicked staff freaked out by a dude sitting by himself looking from his phone to them, so cared enough about them to check it out.

Whether the staffs worries were because of his race, we have no idea

d) Someone seemed to imply Asians don't get racist crap.

Was that a joke?

e) The owner didn't even ring 911. If you listen to the start of call he was ringing the local cop shop to talk to the local cops and it was automatically transferred to 911, because it was after hours.


Mountain meet mole hill

PS Is there no way we can have a new sub forum called "Yanks doing racist stuff" rather than clogging up this one, as it is beginning to get a tad silly
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Old 21st November 2018, 11:53 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes, I get that. But his exaggeration is the crux of what some of us find problematic with this meme. He describes what most of us go through,
BS.
Quote:
but he is more burdened than the rest of us. So I ask: he had the cops called on him when he did nothing wrong, but looked suspicious. Yeah, me too. No tears here. Why are his eyes misting if he is going through no more than the rest of us?
You've had the cops called on you twice this year, and you think you are representative of the rest of us? Really?
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Old 21st November 2018, 11:55 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The race of the bloke was even mentioned till he was asked for a description
And how is that relevant? You think racially motivated calls include the n-word right off the bat?

Quote:
c) The owner wasn't in the store and obviously had remote access to the video, and frankly just sounded like a good bloke who had been rung by panicked staff freaked out by a dude sitting by himself looking from his phone to them, so cared enough about them to check it out.
I don't think "good concerned bloke" and "racist" are mutually exclusive. To be honest, however, the owner is the least likely to be a racist component here.

Quote:
d) Someone seemed to imply Asians don't get racist crap.
Seemed to you and baron, but that someone didn't imply that at all, as discussed at length thereafter.
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Old 21st November 2018, 12:00 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's not, except to show that the assumption that he was a ne'er-do-well lowlife was wrong.
All veterans are saints?
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Old 21st November 2018, 12:02 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
All veterans are saints?
What a stupid question. The point of the 'veteran' mention is to show that he's not a bum who's never had a job in his life. Whether that makes him a good person is irrelevant, and not the point of bringing it up. The point, I suspect, is simply emotional string-pulling. Oh, he's such a great dad, too! It's not really relevant except, as I said, as a counter to the assumption of a random racist when seeing a black person minding his own business.

Besides, what's the point of mentioning "mother of five" when someone dies in a car crash? Irrelevant, right?
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Old 21st November 2018, 12:02 PM   #86
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Another person using the police as customer service. What shrinking violets these people must be, their first instinct is to call the cops. The guy didn't even realize there was a problem until the cops showed up.

To quote Back to the Future: "You gonna order something, kid?"

It's not hard. How do these people manage to interact with the public?
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Old 21st November 2018, 12:02 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
All veterans are saints?
Veteranist!
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Old 21st November 2018, 12:06 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
+1 for International Skeptics Racist watchdogs. You got another one.

I just looked it up, at that very instant, there were 4,200 black people eating FRO-YO somewhere in America and not being asked to leave.
Boy have you missed the point.
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Old 21st November 2018, 12:18 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Southern white rednecks don't hold a monopoly on racism.
The North West has some of the most virulent racists in the country especially Oregon. They might not have had slavery but their long gone "immigration" laws help explain the why there aren't a lot of black people there.
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Old 21st November 2018, 12:28 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by phunk View Post
BS.

You've had the cops called on you twice this year, and you think you are representative of the rest of us? Really?
Fine. 'Many' of us. Better?
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Old 21st November 2018, 12:32 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not being hyper literal. The LWB threads, or at least many, milk out the constant mistreatment angle. What I would really like to know is just how often this kind of thing happens to the victims. I have police called on my white ass each and every year, sometimes two or three times. I'm never doing anything wrong, but it could look like I am.
Clearly you look really damn shifty, almost as shifty as a black person. This never happens to me or my friends.
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Old 21st November 2018, 12:44 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Clearly you look really damn shifty, almost as shifty as a black person. This never happens to me or my friends.
I prefer 'remarkably attractive'.

It's more about where you find yourself and what you do there. If I stood in a store that has had problems with criminal activity (as reported) and stared, then yes, I would expect to be treated with suspicion. Other examples, like the Blue Purse Gang, should not expect such treatment.
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Old 21st November 2018, 12:52 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I prefer 'remarkably attractive'.

It's more about where you find yourself and what you do there. If I stood in a store that has had problems with criminal activity (as reported) and stared, then yes, I would expect to be treated with suspicion. Other examples, like the Blue Purse Gang, should not expect such treatment.
WHere are you getting the idea that he was starring? That was not in any reports I have read. And this information about the large criminal activity in this yogurt store as well.
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Old 21st November 2018, 12:53 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
It's helpful here that you've included postulates rather than just rebuttals as it provides context for discussing and understanding your perspective. I see from an earlier post of yours that you have also experienced discrimination based on your appearance, which provides further context.
Indeed, although I'd like to say I didn't quote them for victimhood. If I wanted that I could list occurrences from here until doomsday. Just one of the downsides to looking like a Neanderthal but not one which concerns me one iota.

Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
Would you be willing to clarify whether, irrespective of this particular case, you agree that black people in America are more likely to experience what you consider "serious racism" than other visible minorities? And could you specify what body of evidence you consider to be the primary foundation for that opinion? Thanks.
On balance I'd say blacks experience more serious racism in the US than whites - that is life-changing harassment, frequent assaults or a serious assault or worse. As to the stats I've no idea, and neither does anybody else.
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:06 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Another person using the police as customer service. What shrinking violets these people must be, their first instinct is to call the cops. The guy didn't even realize there was a problem until the cops showed up.

To quote Back to the Future: "You gonna order something, kid?"

It's not hard. How do these people manage to interact with the public?
The Yogurt Shop had been robbed and has a recurring problem with people shooting-up in the restrooms. What do you expect the Yogurt Girls to do when a man walks in and loiters? Assume he's doing volunteer work?

What do you expect a good manger to do when his staff calls and says they are nervous of a loiterer?
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:10 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
WHere are you getting the idea that he was starring? That was not in any reports I have read. And this information about the large criminal activity in this yogurt store as well.
Click on ye olde OP link and read away.
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:14 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
What do you expect a good manger to do when his staff calls and says they are nervous of a loiterer?
First you ask if the loiterer is black. If yes, you fire your staff and begin to hire non-racists.
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:20 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
First you ask if the loiterer is black. If yes, you fire your staff and begin to hire non-racists.

Any white loitering vagrant or tweaker would've gotten the same treatment. Probably faster.
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:23 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
Any white loitering vagrant or tweaker would've gotten the same treatment. Probably faster.
You switched from simple loitering to this.
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:28 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
But it was an Asian who called the cops.
The owner - he wasn't present. He was calling the cops at the request of two white women.
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:29 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You switched from simple loitering to this.
Different class of loiterer. Loiterers get rousted. Usually they're white and don't make the news.
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:30 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
The Yogurt Shop had been robbed and has a recurring problem with people shooting-up in the restrooms. What do you expect the Yogurt Girls to do when a man walks in and loiters?
If he's loitering, then he's not robbing them or shooting up. Maybe ask him if he's going to order something?
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:32 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
Different class of loiterer. Loiterers get rousted. Usually they're white and don't make the news.
This guy was not loitering. Nor was he a vagrant.
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:35 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
What if, the owner is just an ******* who calls the police on anyone who hasn't bought anything in 30 minutes?
The owner wasn't even there. He called the police because the two (white) employees who were there, called him and conveyed a scary-sounding situation to him, and asked him to call the police. I can't fault the owner for calling the police based on the little, heavily-filtered information he was given.
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:36 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
If he's loitering, then he's not robbing them or shooting up. Maybe ask him if he's going to order something?
Should the teenage-girl yogurt-scoopers clean the meth-needles out of the bathroom before or after asking a lone weirdo to make-haste? The gentleman clearly wasn't approachable, so they called the manager. Reasonable.
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:37 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
This guy was not loitering. Nor was he a vagrant.
He wasn't in an establishment to make a purchase.
That is the very definition of loitering.
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:42 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Indeed, although I'd like to say I didn't quote them for victimhood. If I wanted that I could list occurrences from here until doomsday. Just one of the downsides to looking like a Neanderthal but not one which concerns me one iota.

Understood. And thanks for clarifying.

On balance I'd say blacks experience more serious racism in the US than whites - that is life-changing harassment, frequent assaults or a serious assault or worse. As to the stats I've no idea, and neither does anybody else.
Thanks Baron. That helps me better understand and appreciate where you're coming from in your comments. I'm sure there are plenty of US statistics on racism and discrimination, but if I take your meaning, you're suggesting that it can be hard to draw unambiguous / useful conclusions from them, right? I'm not sure I totally agree, though I do concede that stats can be presented (and underlying data collected/interpreted) in a biased fashion.

So clearly you feel that racism and discrimination are serious issues and you acknowledge that overall, this probably affects blacks more severely than whites, but you find the "...while black" posts here to be problematic as far as I can see. Again, if I understand correctly this is because of one or more of the following reasons:

1. They assume behaviours with other plausible motivations are racist, which is contrary to the nature of skepticism.

2. They sometimes highlight trite examples that could undermine an appreciation of the seriousness of severe racism.

3. They can contribute to an over-emphasis on black/white racism, which, while problematic, represents an overly simplistic perspective on the prevalence and pervasiveness of the problem, both nationally and internationally; a perspective that may be detrimental towards positive change.

That is a lot of presumption there, but if I'm on the mark at all, I think those are certainly postulates that are worth discussing/debating and I'd be interested to hear what you think would be a more effective way to increase awareness, and decrease prevalence of racism.

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Old 21st November 2018, 01:43 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
The Yogurt Shop had been robbed and has a recurring problem with people shooting-up in the restrooms. What do you expect the Yogurt Girls to do when a man walks in and loiters? Assume he's doing volunteer work?

What do you expect a good manger to do when his staff calls and says they are nervous of a loiterer?
Tell his staff to ask the man sitting (i.e. not doing drugs and not robbing the store) there if they can help him order, the way good customer service based employees should. Then he can explain he is there with 2 other paying customers, and the staff can say thank you sir, have a nice day. Matter resolved, intentions assessed everyone can get on with their day.
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:47 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
Should the teenage-girl yogurt-scoopers clean the meth-needles out of the bathroom before or after asking a lone weirdo to make-haste?
What does that have to do with the situation under discussion?
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:48 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
He wasn't in an establishment to make a purchase.
That is the very definition of loitering.
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loi·ter
/ˈloidər/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: loitering
stand or wait around idly or without apparent purpose.
He was not waiting around idly or without a purpose. He had a very specific purpose for being there, in fact.

You need a better dictionary.
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:49 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
Should the teenage-girl yogurt-scoopers clean the meth-needles out of the bathroom before or after asking a lone weirdo to make-haste? .
In what respect was he a "weirdo"?
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:50 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
Should the teenage-girl yogurt-scoopers clean the meth-needles out of the bathroom before or after asking a lone weirdo to make-haste? The gentleman clearly wasn't approachable, so they called the manager. Reasonable.
I apologize for spending a post taking you seriously; thanks for correcting my mistake.
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:54 PM   #113
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The yogurt shop gets three kinds of folks:

Yogurt Eaters
Bathroom Junkies
Robbers

If someone is sitting alone NOT eating yogurt or doing-drugs in the bathroom, staring at two yogurt-eaters like he's waiting for them to finish, what is the natural conclusion? Calling a manger with concerns is entirely reasonable.
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:57 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
The yogurt shop gets three kinds of folks:

Yogurt Eaters
Bathroom Junkies
Robbers
.
Parents with children. Sometimes, they are even there on supervised visits. Going to get ice cream is a great activity for parents and kids to do together.
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Old 21st November 2018, 02:06 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
If they wanted to be douchebags, they could have asked for confirmation of his status, and, likely he had his paperwork with him (normally in such situation, I would have my authorization with me).
Or at least a fingerprint clearance card. Do you have those?

Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
The last thing they should have done is to send him out of the store.
Technically that probably is the last thing they did.
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Old 21st November 2018, 02:11 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
e) The owner didn't even ring 911. If you listen to the start of call he was ringing the local cop shop to talk to the local cops and it was automatically transferred to 911, because it was after hours.
The way it works in the U.S., a lot of traffic is routed through 911, because they are the dispatchers. Regardless of whether he was trying to call the police department, he did want an officer to come to the scene.

Now if it were a doughnut shop, they probably wouldn't have had to call.

And the military thing? It's just evidence he's not a complete flake and that the AF was happy to have him for 9 years. The story was giving background about him and probably would have mentioned any number of jobs a subject might have held.

ETA: What I was puzzled by was the reference to "a bonnet" for a cap. Pretty sure it wasn't the hood of a car ...

Last edited by Minoosh; 21st November 2018 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 21st November 2018, 02:11 PM   #117
baron
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Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
Thanks Baron. That helps me better understand and appreciate where you're coming from in your comments. I'm sure there are plenty of US statistics on racism and discrimination, but if I take your meaning, you're suggesting that it can be hard to draw unambiguous / useful conclusions from them, right? I'm not sure I totally agree, though I do concede that stats can be presented (and underlying data collected/interpreted) in a biased fashion.

So clearly you feel that racism and discrimination are serious issues and you acknowledge that overall, this probably affects blacks more severely than whites, but you find the "...while black" posts here to be problematic as far as I can see. Again, if I understand correctly this is because of one or more of the following reasons:

1. They assume behaviours with other plausible motivations are racist, which is contrary to the nature of skepticism.

2. They sometimes highlight trite examples that could undermine an appreciation of the seriousness of severe racism.

3. They can contribute to an over-emphasis on black/white racism, which, while problematic, represents an overly simplistic perspective on the prevalence and pervasiveness of the problem, both nationally and internationally; a perspective that may be detrimental towards positive change.

That is a lot of presumption there, but if I'm on the mark at all, I think those are certainly postulates that are worth discussing/debating and I'd be interested to hear what you think would be a more effective way to increase awareness, and decrease prevalence of racism.
I'll go with all three. It's a bizarre state of affairs. If the far right wanted to play down the effect of racism they literally could do no better than jumping on the 'whilst black' bandwagon. I'm not just talking about this forum but on social media and even the mainstream media. I don't object to discussions of obvious racism that have a point beyond scoring internet points yet the first message from threads like this (OK, not this one as I know it's a parody, but most) is that this is as bad as racism gets. This is what we choose to talk about rather than actual social issues such as why in the US do blacks and whites invariably self-segregate (from each other). Has anybody asked them? Maybe not. A woman is asked for ID, a guy is stopped in his car, a guy is asked to leave a coffee shop, it's mind numbing. Another idea for those concerned is to stop the incessant white-bashing. Yes, whites can be racist, but so can everybody else. Problems aren't solved by demonising the very people who must be on board to solve them.
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Old 21st November 2018, 02:13 PM   #118
baron
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
The yogurt shop gets three kinds of folks:

Yogurt Eaters
Bathroom Junkies
Robbers

If someone is sitting alone NOT eating yogurt or doing-drugs in the bathroom, staring at two yogurt-eaters like he's waiting for them to finish, what is the natural conclusion? Calling a manger with concerns is entirely reasonable.
If I were robbing a yogurt store I'd eat a yogurt. I'm not stupid.
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Old 21st November 2018, 02:13 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
The yogurt shop gets three kinds of folks:

Yogurt Eaters
Bathroom Junkies
Robbers

If someone is sitting alone NOT eating yogurt or doing-drugs in the bathroom, staring at two yogurt-eaters like he's waiting for them to finish, what is the natural conclusion? Calling a manger with concerns is entirely reasonable.
He was sitting with two people.

Even if he had been alone, the best way to approach this situation - for a service professional, such as a sales-person at an ice-cream parlor - is to ask "can I help you with your order, sir?"

In a previous life, I worked in service. That's what I did. If you can't, you should change profession to something that doesn't involve interacting with other human beings.
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Old 21st November 2018, 02:14 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
Should the teenage-girl yogurt-scoopers clean the meth-needles out of the bathroom before or after asking a lone weirdo to make-haste? The gentleman clearly wasn't approachable, so they called the manager. Reasonable.
Clearly? Why?
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