Not buying Yugurt While Black - Page 4

JoeMorgue · 21st November 2018, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by phunk

Clearly? Why?

Duh big scary black guy.

Mr Salk · 21st November 2018, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by uke2se

He was sitting with two people.

Even if he had been alone, the best way to approach this situation - for a service professional, such as a sales-person at an ice-cream parlor - is to ask "can I help you with your order, sir?"

In a previous life, I worked in service. That's what I did. If you can't, you should change profession to something that doesn't involve interacting with other human beings.

He was sitting at a nearby table. He didn't appear to the staff to be "with" them. Even parents usually sit at the same table and chat a bit.

Yogurt is ordered at the counter. Yes, they could have yelled to him or walked out and asked for his order. But clearly he wasn't there to order; everyone knows how to buy yogurt.
So if he doesn't want yoghurt, what should young inexperienced staff do about a loiterer staring at customers? Call the manager.

Mr Salk · 21st November 2018, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by baron

If I were robbing a yogurt store I'd eat a yogurt. I'm not stupid.

You can't afford yogurt until you rob the store. And you don't buy it, you steal that too.

uke2se · 21st November 2018, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Salk

He was sitting at a nearby table. He didn't appear to the staff to be "with" them. Even parents usually sit at the same table and chat a bit.

Yogurt is ordered at the counter. Yes, they could have yelled to him or walked out and asked for his order. But clearly he wasn't there to order; everyone knows how to buy yogurt.
So if he doesn't want yoghurt, what should young inexperienced staff do about a loiterer staring at customers? Call the manager.

No. They should ask him if he planned to order. The actions of the staff were wrong in every way. But that's just the start.

Next, we have the cops, who after learning why the guy was there still ordered him to leave.

You may chose to believe racism had nothing to do with this. I chose to call that sentiment naive at best.

cullennz · 21st November 2018, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

The way it works in the U.S., a lot of traffic is routed through 911, because they are the dispatchers. Regardless of whether he was trying to call the police department, he did want an officer to come to the scene.

Now if it were a doughnut shop, they probably wouldn't have had to call.

And the military thing? It's just evidence he's not a complete flake and that the AF was happy to have him for 9 years. The story was giving background about him and probably would have mentioned any number of jobs a subject might have held.

ETA: What I was puzzled by was the reference to "a bonnet" for a cap. Pretty sure it wasn't the hood of a car ...

Fair call

Cheers

p0lka · 21st November 2018, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by rdwight

I think I would have a little more understanding in regards to the situation if their uncomfortable feeling was caused by a man sitting adjacent to a mother and child, staring and waiting while doing little else. There have been a few recent issues around my area with men following around woman and their children in stores, some direct attempts at grabbing etc.

Why after the officers were informed of the situation did they still instruct the gentleman to leave is confusing.

Wouldn't the reasonable thing to do in that case be ask the mother and child whether they felt threatened?
And I agree, it is confusing.

William Parcher · 21st November 2018, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by baron

Another idea for those concerned is to stop the incessant white-bashing.

That isn't really going to happen because the effect will be that it appears that white racists are becoming less common. That misperception can't be allowed to possibly happen.

There is no way that white-bashing will stop or even slow down.

uke2se · 21st November 2018, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

That isn't really going to happen because the effect will be that it appears that white racists are becoming less common. That misperception can't be allowed to possibly happen.

It's not a question of not allowing it to happen. It's simply that it isn't happening, so why should we pretend it is?

And pointing out racism isn't "white-bashing". If you think it is, it's because you are racist.

p0lka · 21st November 2018, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by uke2se

No. They should ask him if he planned to order. The actions of the staff were wrong in every way. But that's just the start.

Next, we have the cops, who after learning why the guy was there still ordered him to leave.

You may chose to believe racism had nothing to do with this. I chose to call that sentiment naive at best.

Did they order him to leave?
according to the link where he gave his own account of what happened, they asked him to leave and he just went 'yeah, im gonna leave', where did you get the order to leave from?

uke2se · 21st November 2018, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

Did they order him to leave?
according to the link where he gave his own account of what happened, they asked him to leave and he just went 'yeah, im gonna leave', where did you get the order to leave from?

If a policeman asks someone to leave, that's an order.

William Parcher · 21st November 2018, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

Wouldn't the reasonable thing to do in that case be ask the mother and child whether they felt threatened?
And I agree, it is confusing.

Her opinions about a random black man don't matter.

She doesn't know what his intentions are and if she simply feels threatened then she is a racist.

uke2se · 21st November 2018, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

Her opinions about a random black man don't matter.

She doesn't know what his intentions are and if she simply feels threatened then she is a racist.

Are you sure you understand what happened here? It seems you're talking about some other situation altogether.

p0lka · 21st November 2018, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by uke2se

If a policeman asks someone to leave, that's an order.

Nope, I disagree.

“They asked me to leave,” Ragland said. “They asked for my ID. They told me the manager had been watching me and wanted me to move along.”

Ragland did “move along,” he says — though that phrase, as if he were a stray dog, made him bristle."

There's a difference between a request or an order in a civilised society, the police know that and so the request might become an order, but the request is not an order.

EDIT: Unless you live in like Saudi Arabia or something.

Mr Salk · 21st November 2018, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

Her opinions about a random black man don't matter.

She doesn't know what his intentions are and if she simply feels threatened then she is a racist.

Oh crap... I think I joined the party.

Sometimes folks look threatening. Some folks LIKE to look threatening. Some of those folks are black.

William Parcher · 21st November 2018, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by uke2se

Are you sure you understand what happened here? It seems you're talking about some other situation altogether.

I was responding to a posted hypothetical involving police (or anyone) asking a woman what she thinks about a nearby black man.

phunk · 21st November 2018, 02:59 PM

Not sure the cops can be blamed for anything here. Businesses have the right to refuse service or to ask a non-customer to leave, don't they? I'm not saying it's right, or that it's not racist. But if the business wants him to leave, can the cops deny that and say "no, he can stay"? Or are they obliged to ask him to leave because the business wants him to leave?

uke2se · 21st November 2018, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

Nope, I disagree.

“They asked me to leave,” Ragland said. “They asked for my ID. They told me the manager had been watching me and wanted me to move along.”

Ragland did “move along,” he says — though that phrase, as if he were a stray dog, made him bristle."

There's a difference between a request or an order in a civilised society, the police know that and so the request might become an order, but the request is not an order.

You can disagree as much as you want. You're wrong, and I would suggest you never take a policeman asking you to leave as anything other than an order.

When I ask someone to leave, I expect them to do so. If they do not, I will make them leave.

uke2se · 21st November 2018, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by phunk

Not sure the cops can be blamed for anything here. Businesses have the right to refuse service or to ask a non-customer to leave, don't they? I'm not saying it's right, or that it's not racist. But if the business wants him to leave, can the cops deny that and say "no, he can stay"? Or are they obliged to ask him to leave because the business wants him to leave?

The cops could have explained the situation to the staff and then questioned their intent if they still wanted the guy to leave. The cops should have understood that the guy was there performing a court appointed civic duty and that the staff had nothing to fear from him. They should also have understood that the guy was there accompanying two paying customers.

baron · 21st November 2018, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by uke2se

You can disagree as much as you want. You're wrong, and I would suggest you never take a policeman asking you to leave as anything other than an order.

Rubbish. If a cop requests something then they request something. They might well order you if you don't comply but equally they may not. You try photographing 'sensitive' buildings in public and you're likely to get a cop approach, often at the request of 'security', and request that you tell them why you're taking photos, or that you move along. You ask them if they are ordering you to do so and they will say no, because it's not a criminal offence. There are hundreds of videos on YT of cops doing just this. In this instance the cops were actioning the request of the business owner, which may or may not be backed up by law (I don't know state laws in regard to this). If remaining on private property once asked to leave is not a criminal offence than the cops can do nothing but request. Even if it is an offence they might well request and not enforce.

p0lka · 21st November 2018, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by uke2se

You can disagree as much as you want. You're wrong, and I would suggest you never take a policeman asking you to leave as anything other than an order.

When I ask someone to leave, I expect them to do so. If they do not, I will make them leave.

Well I suppose I am lucky being in the UK then, the police here can request you to do something,
a certain percent (most imo) would do it automatically but If some people don't, the following does not really come into play.

Originally Posted by uke2se

When I ask someone to leave, I expect them to do so. If they do not, I will make them leave.

The above is just bullying.

UK police tend to follow the law, and will use the law to enable the ability to remove people if needed, they tend not to rely on fear.

uke2se · 21st November 2018, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

Well I suppose I am lucky being in the UK then, the police here can request you to do something,
a certain percent (most imo) would do it automatically but If some people don't, the following does not really come into play.

The above is just bullying.

UK police tend to follow the law, and will use the law to enable the ability to remove people if needed, they tend not to rely on fear.

Where did I imply I rely on fear?

I ask nicely at first. Then I tell them to leave. Then I move them. That's escalation, and I'm pretty sure UK cops do the same.

What is worded at first as a suggestion is to be taken as an order. The point is, if a cop tells you to leave, do not take it as a suggestion.

kellyb · 21st November 2018, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by baron

Rubbish. If a cop requests something then they request something. They might well order you if you don't comply but equally they may not. You try photographing 'sensitive' buildings in public and you're likely to get a cop approach, often at the request of 'security', and request that you tell them why you're taking photos, or that you move along. You ask them if they are ordering you to do so and they will say no, because it's not a criminal offence. There are hundreds of videos on YT of cops doing just this. In this instance the cops were actioning the request of the business owner, which may or may not be backed up by law (I don't know state laws in regard to this). If remaining on private property once asked to leave is not a criminal offence than the cops can do nothing but request. Even if it is an offence they might well request and not enforce.

Hahahahaha!!!!

You should spend a few years in the US, dude.

US cops reserve the right to arrest anyone, anywhere, at any time, for any reason they so wish.

They will flat-out tell you to comply or get arrested for "resisting arrest"!

Thermal · 21st November 2018, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by kellyb

Hahahahaha!!!!

You should spend a few years in the US, dude.

US cops reserve the right to arrest anyone, anywhere, at any time, for any reason they so wish.

They will flat-out tell you to comply or get arrested for "resisting arrest"!

*white option only. Other hues shot for resisting arrest

kellyb · 21st November 2018, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

*white option only. Other hues shot for resisting arrest

True.

p0lka · 21st November 2018, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by uke2se

Where did I imply I rely on fear?

I ask nicely at first. Then I tell them to leave. Then I move them. That's escalation, and I'm pretty sure UK cops do the same.

What is worded at first as a suggestion is to be taken as an order. The point is, if a cop tells you to leave, do not take it as a suggestion.

Then I will refer you back to my original post

Originally Posted by p0lka

There's a difference between a request or an order in a civilised society, the police know that and so the request might become an order, but the request is not an order.

Re the highlighted...they don't.

Here's a thing that might surprise you, we don't even have to give our names to the police even when ordered. Unless we are suspected of committing a crime.

EDIT: the police in the UK work ( well supposed to) for the people, they're supposed to be our friends.

**** knows what's going on in the US.

kellyb · 21st November 2018, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

EDIT: Unless you live in like Saudi Arabia or something.

I think the US is probably the most authoritarian of all the developed nations.

So, yeah.

kellyb · 21st November 2018, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

Then I will refer you back to my original post

Re the highlighted...they don't.

Here's a thing that might surprise you, we don't even have to give our names to the police even when ordered. Unless we are suspected of committing a crime.

EDIT: the police in the UK work ( well supposed to) for the people, they're supposed to be our friends.

**** knows what's going on in the US.

Here's the US:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...s-its-possible

Quote:

A video of the incident shows the plainclothes policeman telling her, "If you continue with this, I will arrest you for resisting arrest."

Quote:

The case raises the question: How can you be arrested for resisting arrest? Isn't that like being fired for refusing to be fired?

Quote:

"There is this — it's not necessarily an evil mentality — but it is a mentality that, 'I am in charge, and you shall not contradict me, you're going to do what I say, at all costs,' " he says. "And if you don't do what they say, well now all of a sudden you're a bad person and they've got to arrest you for that."

In private, police worry about maintaining their authority, because they believe it's dangerous to be seen letting people defy them.

Quote:

Carter, the former officer, agrees that police sometimes feel they have to arrest someone to "save face." But he says some unjustified arrests also come out of officer fatigue — a breakdown of what he calls "resiliency" toward challenging members of the public, especially in protest situations.

"Resisting arrest" charges may also be a way to lend legitimacy to controversial arrests.

Hungry81 · 21st November 2018, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

Her opinions about a random black man don't matter.

She doesn't know what his intentions are and if she simply feels threatened then she is a racist.

But he wasn't a random black man to her, he was a man whos presence assisted or enabled her to safely and lawfully see her son. The customer service staff did not do their job, they called the police to do it for them, unfortunately the police who responded for whatever reason did not use common sense.

An understanding of nuance, tact and sense are all missing from these LWB cases.

Thermal · 21st November 2018, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by kellyb

Here's the US:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...s-its-possible

*Not to beat the point to death...but they also might beat you to death. Or maybe choke, as convenient

p0lka · 21st November 2018, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by kellyb

Here's the US:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...s-its-possible

wow that's depressing.
In the UK the police take an oath,

Quote:

I, ... of ... do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people; and that I will, to the best of my power, cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against people and property; and that while I continue to hold the said office I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law.

Do the US police have anything like that?

UK, big deal about keeping the peace.

baron · 21st November 2018, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by kellyb

Hahahahaha!!!!

You should spend a few years in the US, dude.

US cops reserve the right to arrest anyone, anywhere, at any time, for any reason they so wish.

They will flat-out tell you to comply or get arrested for "resisting arrest"!

I think you're overstating it somewhat, unless you're trying to get us to believe that no US cops acts within the law.

kellyb · 21st November 2018, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by baron

I think you're overstating it somewhat, unless you're trying to get us to believe that no US cops acts within the law.

I have no idea what the % is who act outside the law.

Most Americans just know not to give them any reason to flirt with the notion of saying "stop resisting" as they move in to handcuff you.

Minoosh · 21st November 2018, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Salk

He was sitting at a nearby table. He didn't appear to the staff to be "with" them.

The table was "adjacent," but I see where you're getting this.

Originally Posted by Mr Salk

Even parents usually sit at the same table and chat a bit.

I can't tell what you're saying. Even parents usually sit at the same table as who? Do you have knowledge of how supervised visits are supposed to look?

Originally Posted by Mr Salk

So if he doesn't want yoghurt, what should young inexperienced staff do about a loiterer staring at customers?

Where are you getting that they were young and inexperienced? Apologies if I missed this in the column/call.

BTW the claim I think is that he was staring at employees, not customers.

Originally Posted by Mr Salk

Call the manager.

That part is fine. But they still wanted him to leave even after it became perfectly clear what the situation was. They were "thankful" he was gone.

Responding to someone else: "Move along" from a cop is tantamount to an order. If he hadn't, they might have Tazed him, or worse.

Maybe you posted this as parody, but it's actually more clearly racist than a lot of these "LWB" threads. Other than he wasn't "making them comfortable," as the report put it, I can't think of any reason why this is not straight-up racism. He wasn't trying to get buzzed into a locked building, he wasn't using charcoal in a gas-only barbecue area, he wasn't even an unlucky apartment dweller with a few grams of weed. He didn't brush anybody with a bulky backpack, or any of the other situations that have involved random busybodies and people of some color other than beige.

ETA: Didn't fall asleep in a dormitory common area, etc. etc.

kellyb · 21st November 2018, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

Do the US police have anything like that?

UK, big deal about keeping the peace.

In my state, it's this:

"I do solemnly swear that I will support the Constitutions of the United States and of the State of Tennessee, and the ordinances of the City of ____________________, and will well and faithfully perform the duties imposed upon me as a police officer of the City
of to the best of my ability; and that I will serve the United States, the State of Tennessee, and the City of ________________honestly and faithfully, and will obey the orders of the officers and officials placed over me according to law."

So, significantly different from the UK oath. Nothing about peace.

p0lka · 21st November 2018, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by baron

I think you're overstating it somewhat, unless you're trying to get us to believe that no US cops acts within the law.

Who knows? I still cannot get over the following..

Originally Posted by uke2se

You can disagree as much as you want. You're wrong, and I would suggest you never take a policeman asking you to leave as anything other than an order.

When I ask someone to leave, I expect them to do so. If they do not, I will make them leave.

That's not what police are supposed to be about.

JoeMorgue · 21st November 2018, 03:59 PM

Is it to late to point out that everyone in this scenario is suspect because yogurt is just awful?

Minoosh · 21st November 2018, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by kellyb

I think the US is probably the most authoritarian of all the developed nations.

So, yeah.

No it's not.

p0lka · 21st November 2018, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by kellyb

In my state, it's this:

"I do solemnly swear that I will support the Constitutions of the United States and of the State of Tennessee, and the ordinances of the City of ____________________, and will well and faithfully perform the duties imposed upon me as a police officer of the City
of to the best of my ability; and that I will serve the United States, the State of Tennessee, and the City of ________________honestly and faithfully, and will obey the orders of the officers and officials placed over me according to law."

So, significantly different from the UK oath. Nothing about peace.

Thanks for that,
maybe the whole "keeping the peace" is the thing that makes the US and UK different? interesting.

Minoosh · 21st November 2018, 04:04 PM

I think it's worth mentioning that the police department did apologize.

Minoosh · 21st November 2018, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Is it to late to point out that everyone in this scenario is suspect because yogurt is just awful?

Once upon a time frozen yogurt actually tasted like yogurt, but they fixed that, and now IMO it's indistinguishable from soft-serve ice cream.

21st November 2018, 02:15 PM	#121
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 15,910	Originally Posted by phunk Clearly? Why? Duh big scary black guy.
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21st November 2018, 02:26 PM	#122
Mr Salk Thinker Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 168	Originally Posted by uke2se He was sitting with two people. Even if he had been alone, the best way to approach this situation - for a service professional, such as a sales-person at an ice-cream parlor - is to ask "can I help you with your order, sir?" In a previous life, I worked in service. That's what I did. If you can't, you should change profession to something that doesn't involve interacting with other human beings. He was sitting at a nearby table. He didn't appear to the staff to be "with" them. Even parents usually sit at the same table and chat a bit. Yogurt is ordered at the counter. Yes, they could have yelled to him or walked out and asked for his order. But clearly he wasn't there to order; everyone knows how to buy yogurt. So if he doesn't want yoghurt, what should young inexperienced staff do about a loiterer staring at customers? Call the manager.
Mr Salk Thinker Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 168

21st November 2018, 02:28 PM	#123
Mr Salk Thinker Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 168	Originally Posted by baron If I were robbing a yogurt store I'd eat a yogurt. I'm not stupid. You can't afford yogurt until you rob the store. And you don't buy it, you steal that too.
Mr Salk Thinker Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 168

21st November 2018, 02:35 PM	#124
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 12,244	Originally Posted by Mr Salk He was sitting at a nearby table. He didn't appear to the staff to be "with" them. Even parents usually sit at the same table and chat a bit. Yogurt is ordered at the counter. Yes, they could have yelled to him or walked out and asked for his order. But clearly he wasn't there to order; everyone knows how to buy yogurt. So if he doesn't want yoghurt, what should young inexperienced staff do about a loiterer staring at customers? Call the manager. No. They should ask him if he planned to order. The actions of the staff were wrong in every way. But that's just the start. Next, we have the cops, who after learning why the guy was there still ordered him to leave. You may chose to believe racism had nothing to do with this. I chose to call that sentiment naive at best.
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21st November 2018, 02:38 PM	#125
cullennz Embarrasingly illiterate Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 14,571	Originally Posted by Minoosh The way it works in the U.S., a lot of traffic is routed through 911, because they are the dispatchers. Regardless of whether he was trying to call the police department, he did want an officer to come to the scene. Now if it were a doughnut shop, they probably wouldn't have had to call. And the military thing? It's just evidence he's not a complete flake and that the AF was happy to have him for 9 years. The story was giving background about him and probably would have mentioned any number of jobs a subject might have held. ETA: What I was puzzled by was the reference to "a bonnet" for a cap. Pretty sure it wasn't the hood of a car ... Fair call Cheers
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21st November 2018, 02:46 PM	#126
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,155	Originally Posted by rdwight I think I would have a little more understanding in regards to the situation if their uncomfortable feeling was caused by a man sitting adjacent to a mother and child, staring and waiting while doing little else. There have been a few recent issues around my area with men following around woman and their children in stores, some direct attempts at grabbing etc. Why after the officers were informed of the situation did they still instruct the gentleman to leave is confusing. Wouldn't the reasonable thing to do in that case be ask the mother and child whether they felt threatened? And I agree, it is confusing.
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,155	Last edited by p0lka; 21st November 2018 at 02:47 PM.

21st November 2018, 02:47 PM	#127
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 21,461	Originally Posted by baron Another idea for those concerned is to stop the incessant white-bashing. That isn't really going to happen because the effect will be that it appears that white racists are becoming less common. That misperception can't be allowed to possibly happen. There is no way that white-bashing will stop or even slow down.
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21st November 2018, 02:50 PM	#128
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 12,244	Originally Posted by William Parcher That isn't really going to happen because the effect will be that it appears that white racists are becoming less common. That misperception can't be allowed to possibly happen. It's not a question of not allowing it to happen. It's simply that it isn't happening, so why should we pretend it is? And pointing out racism isn't "white-bashing". If you think it is, it's because you are racist.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

21st November 2018, 02:51 PM	#129
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,155	Originally Posted by uke2se No. They should ask him if he planned to order. The actions of the staff were wrong in every way. But that's just the start. Next, we have the cops, who after learning why the guy was there still ordered him to leave. You may chose to believe racism had nothing to do with this. I chose to call that sentiment naive at best. Did they order him to leave? according to the link where he gave his own account of what happened, they asked him to leave and he just went 'yeah, im gonna leave', where did you get the order to leave from?
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,155

21st November 2018, 02:51 PM	#130
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 12,244	Originally Posted by p0lka Did they order him to leave? according to the link where he gave his own account of what happened, they asked him to leave and he just went 'yeah, im gonna leave', where did you get the order to leave from? If a policeman asks someone to leave, that's an order.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

21st November 2018, 02:52 PM	#131
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 21,461	Originally Posted by p0lka Wouldn't the reasonable thing to do in that case be ask the mother and child whether they felt threatened? And I agree, it is confusing. Her opinions about a random black man don't matter. She doesn't know what his intentions are and if she simply feels threatened then she is a racist.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

21st November 2018, 02:53 PM	#132
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 12,244	Originally Posted by William Parcher Her opinions about a random black man don't matter. She doesn't know what his intentions are and if she simply feels threatened then she is a racist. Are you sure you understand what happened here? It seems you're talking about some other situation altogether.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

21st November 2018, 02:58 PM	#133
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,155	Originally Posted by uke2se If a policeman asks someone to leave, that's an order. Nope, I disagree. “They asked me to leave,” Ragland said. “They asked for my ID. They told me the manager had been watching me and wanted me to move along.” Ragland did “move along,” he says — though that phrase, as if he were a stray dog, made him bristle." There's a difference between a request or an order in a civilised society, the police know that and so the request might become an order, but the request is not an order. EDIT: Unless you live in like Saudi Arabia or something.
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,155	Last edited by p0lka; 21st November 2018 at 03:01 PM.

21st November 2018, 02:58 PM	#134
Mr Salk Thinker Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 168	Originally Posted by William Parcher Her opinions about a random black man don't matter. She doesn't know what his intentions are and if she simply feels threatened then she is a racist. Oh crap... I think I joined the party. Sometimes folks look threatening. Some folks LIKE to look threatening. Some of those folks are black.
Mr Salk Thinker Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 168

21st November 2018, 02:59 PM	#135
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 21,461	Originally Posted by uke2se Are you sure you understand what happened here? It seems you're talking about some other situation altogether. I was responding to a posted hypothetical involving police (or anyone) asking a woman what she thinks about a nearby black man.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

21st November 2018, 02:59 PM	#136
phunk Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,884	Not sure the cops can be blamed for anything here. Businesses have the right to refuse service or to ask a non-customer to leave, don't they? I'm not saying it's right, or that it's not racist. But if the business wants him to leave, can the cops deny that and say "no, he can stay"? Or are they obliged to ask him to leave because the business wants him to leave?
phunk Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,884

21st November 2018, 03:00 PM	#137
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 12,244	Originally Posted by p0lka Nope, I disagree. “They asked me to leave,” Ragland said. “They asked for my ID. They told me the manager had been watching me and wanted me to move along.” Ragland did “move along,” he says — though that phrase, as if he were a stray dog, made him bristle." There's a difference between a request or an order in a civilised society, the police know that and so the request might become an order, but the request is not an order. You can disagree as much as you want. You're wrong, and I would suggest you never take a policeman asking you to leave as anything other than an order. When I ask someone to leave, I expect them to do so. If they do not, I will make them leave.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

21st November 2018, 03:02 PM	#138
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 12,244	Originally Posted by phunk Not sure the cops can be blamed for anything here. Businesses have the right to refuse service or to ask a non-customer to leave, don't they? I'm not saying it's right, or that it's not racist. But if the business wants him to leave, can the cops deny that and say "no, he can stay"? Or are they obliged to ask him to leave because the business wants him to leave? The cops could have explained the situation to the staff and then questioned their intent if they still wanted the guy to leave. The cops should have understood that the guy was there performing a court appointed civic duty and that the staff had nothing to fear from him. They should also have understood that the guy was there accompanying two paying customers.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

21st November 2018, 03:09 PM	#139
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,217	Originally Posted by uke2se You can disagree as much as you want. You're wrong, and I would suggest you never take a policeman asking you to leave as anything other than an order. Rubbish. If a cop requests something then they request something. They might well order you if you don't comply but equally they may not. You try photographing 'sensitive' buildings in public and you're likely to get a cop approach, often at the request of 'security', and request that you tell them why you're taking photos, or that you move along. You ask them if they are ordering you to do so and they will say no, because it's not a criminal offence. There are hundreds of videos on YT of cops doing just this. In this instance the cops were actioning the request of the business owner, which may or may not be backed up by law (I don't know state laws in regard to this). If remaining on private property once asked to leave is not a criminal offence than the cops can do nothing but request. Even if it is an offence they might well request and not enforce.
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,217	__________________ "I don't think I'm getting the most out of my computer. I turn it on... and use it as a light." - Harry Hill

21st November 2018, 03:14 PM	#140
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,155	Originally Posted by uke2se You can disagree as much as you want. You're wrong, and I would suggest you never take a policeman asking you to leave as anything other than an order. When I ask someone to leave, I expect them to do so. If they do not, I will make them leave. Well I suppose I am lucky being in the UK then, the police here can request you to do something, a certain percent (most imo) would do it automatically but If some people don't, the following does not really come into play. Originally Posted by uke2se When I ask someone to leave, I expect them to do so. If they do not, I will make them leave. The above is just bullying. UK police tend to follow the law, and will use the law to enable the ability to remove people if needed, they tend not to rely on fear.
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,155

21st November 2018, 03:15 PM	#141
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 12,244	Originally Posted by p0lka Well I suppose I am lucky being in the UK then, the police here can request you to do something, a certain percent (most imo) would do it automatically but If some people don't, the following does not really come into play. The above is just bullying. UK police tend to follow the law, and will use the law to enable the ability to remove people if needed, they tend not to rely on fear. Where did I imply I rely on fear? I ask nicely at first. Then I tell them to leave. Then I move them. That's escalation, and I'm pretty sure UK cops do the same. What is worded at first as a suggestion is to be taken as an order. The point is, if a cop tells you to leave, do not take it as a suggestion.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 Last edited by uke2se; 21st November 2018 at 03:17 PM.

21st November 2018, 03:19 PM	#142
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 10,584	Originally Posted by baron Rubbish. If a cop requests something then they request something. They might well order you if you don't comply but equally they may not. You try photographing 'sensitive' buildings in public and you're likely to get a cop approach, often at the request of 'security', and request that you tell them why you're taking photos, or that you move along. You ask them if they are ordering you to do so and they will say no, because it's not a criminal offence. There are hundreds of videos on YT of cops doing just this. In this instance the cops were actioning the request of the business owner, which may or may not be backed up by law (I don't know state laws in regard to this). If remaining on private property once asked to leave is not a criminal offence than the cops can do nothing but request. Even if it is an offence they might well request and not enforce. Hahahahaha!!!! You should spend a few years in the US, dude. US cops reserve the right to arrest anyone, anywhere, at any time, for any reason they so wish. They will flat-out tell you to comply or get arrested for "resisting arrest"!
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.

21st November 2018, 03:22 PM	#143
Thermal Philosopher Pither Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either Posts: 6,402	Originally Posted by kellyb Hahahahaha!!!! You should spend a few years in the US, dude. US cops reserve the right to arrest anyone, anywhere, at any time, for any reason they so wish. They will flat-out tell you to comply or get arrested for "resisting arrest"! *white option only. Other hues shot for resisting arrest
	__________________ "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

21st November 2018, 03:25 PM	#144
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 10,584	Originally Posted by Thermal *white option only. Other hues shot for resisting arrest True.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.

21st November 2018, 03:26 PM	#145
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,155	Originally Posted by uke2se Where did I imply I rely on fear? I ask nicely at first. Then I tell them to leave. Then I move them. That's escalation, and I'm pretty sure UK cops do the same. What is worded at first as a suggestion is to be taken as an order. The point is, if a cop tells you to leave, do not take it as a suggestion. Then I will refer you back to my original post Originally Posted by p0lka There's a difference between a request or an order in a civilised society, the police know that and so the request might become an order, but the request is not an order. Re the highlighted...they don't. Here's a thing that might surprise you, we don't even have to give our names to the police even when ordered. Unless we are suspected of committing a crime. EDIT: the police in the UK work ( well supposed to) for the people, they're supposed to be our friends. **** knows what's going on in the US.
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,155	Last edited by p0lka; 21st November 2018 at 03:29 PM.

21st November 2018, 03:32 PM	#146
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 10,584	Originally Posted by p0lka EDIT: Unless you live in like Saudi Arabia or something. I think the US is probably the most authoritarian of all the developed nations. So, yeah.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.

21st November 2018, 03:37 PM	#147
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 10,584	Originally Posted by p0lka Then I will refer you back to my original post Re the highlighted...they don't. Here's a thing that might surprise you, we don't even have to give our names to the police even when ordered. Unless we are suspected of committing a crime. EDIT: the police in the UK work ( well supposed to) for the people, they're supposed to be our friends. ** knows what's going on in the US. Here's the US: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...s-its-possible Quote: A video of the incident shows the plainclothes policeman telling her, "If you continue with this, I will arrest you for resisting arrest." Quote: The case raises the question: How can you be arrested for resisting arrest? Isn't that like being fired for refusing to be fired? Quote: "There is this — it's not necessarily an evil mentality — but it is a mentality that, 'I am in charge, and you shall not contradict me, you're going to do what I say, at all costs,' " he says. "And if you don't do what they say, well now all of a sudden you're a bad person and they've got to arrest you for that." In private, police worry about maintaining their authority, because they believe it's dangerous to be seen letting people defy them. Quote: Carter, the former officer, agrees that police sometimes feel they have to arrest someone to "save face." But he says some unjustified arrests also come out of officer fatigue — a breakdown of what he calls "resiliency" toward challenging members of the public, especially in protest situations. "Resisting arrest" charges may also be a way to lend legitimacy to controversial arrests.**
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.

21st November 2018, 03:38 PM	#148
Hungry81 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,043	Originally Posted by William Parcher Her opinions about a random black man don't matter. She doesn't know what his intentions are and if she simply feels threatened then she is a racist. But he wasn't a random black man to her, he was a man whos presence assisted or enabled her to safely and lawfully see her son. The customer service staff did not do their job, they called the police to do it for them, unfortunately the police who responded for whatever reason did not use common sense. An understanding of nuance, tact and sense are all missing from these LWB cases.
Hungry81 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,043	Last edited by Hungry81; 21st November 2018 at 03:42 PM.

21st November 2018, 03:41 PM	#149
Thermal Philosopher Pither Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either Posts: 6,402	Originally Posted by kellyb Here's the US: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...s-its-possible *Not to beat the point to death...but they also might beat you to death. Or maybe choke, as convenient
	__________________ "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

21st November 2018, 03:44 PM	#150
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,155	Originally Posted by kellyb Here's the US: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...s-its-possible wow that's depressing. In the UK the police take an oath, Quote: I, ... of ... do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people; and that I will, to the best of my power, cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against people and property; and that while I continue to hold the said office I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law. Do the US police have anything like that? UK, big deal about keeping the peace.
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,155	Last edited by p0lka; 21st November 2018 at 03:50 PM.

21st November 2018, 03:47 PM	#151
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,217	Originally Posted by kellyb Hahahahaha!!!! You should spend a few years in the US, dude. US cops reserve the right to arrest anyone, anywhere, at any time, for any reason they so wish. They will flat-out tell you to comply or get arrested for "resisting arrest"! I think you're overstating it somewhat, unless you're trying to get us to believe that no US cops acts within the law.
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,217	__________________ "I don't think I'm getting the most out of my computer. I turn it on... and use it as a light." - Harry Hill

21st November 2018, 03:50 PM	#152
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 10,584	Originally Posted by baron I think you're overstating it somewhat, unless you're trying to get us to believe that no US cops acts within the law. I have no idea what the % is who act outside the law. Most Americans just know not to give them any reason to flirt with the notion of saying "stop resisting" as they move in to handcuff you.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend. Last edited by kellyb; 21st November 2018 at 03:54 PM.

21st November 2018, 03:51 PM	#153
Minoosh Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 8,607	Originally Posted by Mr Salk He was sitting at a nearby table. He didn't appear to the staff to be "with" them. The table was "adjacent," but I see where you're getting this. Originally Posted by Mr Salk Even parents usually sit at the same table and chat a bit. I can't tell what you're saying. Even parents usually sit at the same table as who? Do you have knowledge of how supervised visits are supposed to look? Originally Posted by Mr Salk So if he doesn't want yoghurt, what should young inexperienced staff do about a loiterer staring at customers? Where are you getting that they were young and inexperienced? Apologies if I missed this in the column/call. BTW the claim I think is that he was staring at employees, not customers. Originally Posted by Mr Salk Call the manager. That part is fine. But they still wanted him to leave even after it became perfectly clear what the situation was. They were "thankful" he was gone. Responding to someone else: "Move along" from a cop is tantamount to an order. If he hadn't, they might have Tazed him, or worse. Maybe you posted this as parody, but it's actually more clearly racist than a lot of these "LWB" threads. Other than he wasn't "making them comfortable," as the report put it, I can't think of any reason why this is not straight-up racism. He wasn't trying to get buzzed into a locked building, he wasn't using charcoal in a gas-only barbecue area, he wasn't even an unlucky apartment dweller with a few grams of weed. He didn't brush anybody with a bulky backpack, or any of the other situations that have involved random busybodies and people of some color other than beige. ETA: Didn't fall asleep in a dormitory common area, etc. etc.
Minoosh Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 8,607	Last edited by Minoosh; 21st November 2018 at 04:13 PM. Reason: Fixed first question

21st November 2018, 03:53 PM	#154
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 10,584	Originally Posted by p0lka Do the US police have anything like that? UK, big deal about keeping the peace. In my state, it's this: "I do solemnly swear that I will support the Constitutions of the United States and of the State of Tennessee, and the ordinances of the City of ____________________, and will well and faithfully perform the duties imposed upon me as a police officer of the City of to the best of my ability; and that I will serve the United States, the State of Tennessee, and the City of ________________honestly and faithfully, and will obey the orders of the officers and officials placed over me according to law." So, significantly different from the UK oath. Nothing about peace.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.

21st November 2018, 03:57 PM	#155
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,155	Originally Posted by baron I think you're overstating it somewhat, unless you're trying to get us to believe that no US cops acts within the law. Who knows? I still cannot get over the following.. Originally Posted by uke2se You can disagree as much as you want. You're wrong, and I would suggest you never take a policeman asking you to leave as anything other than an order. When I ask someone to leave, I expect them to do so. If they do not, I will make them leave. That's not what police are supposed to be about.
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,155