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Old 21st November 2018, 04:43 PM   #161
varwoche
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Fine. 'Many' of us. Better?
I dunno. There are folks here who take offence at perceived exaggeration.
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Old 21st November 2018, 04:51 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I dunno. There are folks here who take offence at perceived exaggeration.
Touché, good sir. Touché.
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Old 21st November 2018, 07:01 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes, I get that. But his exaggeration is the crux of what some of us find problematic with this meme. He describes what most of us go through, but he is more burdened than the rest of us. So I ask: he had the cops called on him when he did nothing wrong, but looked suspicious. Yeah, me too. No tears here. Why are his eyes misting if he is going through no more than the rest of us?

BTW, I know racism is a very real problem. My argument is that the LWB meme does not reflect it well, and comes off as counterproductive entitled whining. The posters are trying too hard to make a meme out of everyday nuicances, and are getting progressively sillier. The Chipolte Gang, Crosswalk Cathy, accused white racists that turn out to have black spouses...the meme is shooting itself in the foot
Re paragraph 2 ... To the extent true, this is an issue pertaining to ISF posters, not the guy. This doesn't justify calling him out.

Paragraph 1 is positively inane. You don't know that he's exaggerating. You're leaping to a conclusion. "No more than the rest of us"? I mean really, that doesn't pass the giggle test, except that it's not funny. One could reasonably assume that the author of those words denies that racism exists.
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Old 21st November 2018, 07:29 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Rubbish. If a cop requests something then they request something. They might well order you if you don't comply but equally they may not. You try photographing 'sensitive' buildings in public and you're likely to get a cop approach, often at the request of 'security', and request that you tell them why you're taking photos, or that you move along. You ask them if they are ordering you to do so and they will say no, because it's not a criminal offence. There are hundreds of videos on YT of cops doing just this. In this instance the cops were actioning the request of the business owner, which may or may not be backed up by law (I don't know state laws in regard to this). If remaining on private property once asked to leave is not a criminal offence than the cops can do nothing but request. Even if it is an offence they might well request and not enforce.
Yes that's exactly how it worked at Starbucks, if I remember right.

Wait, no it isn't.
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Old 21st November 2018, 07:31 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I think it's worth mentioning that the police department did apologize.
Yep. Once again, ISF apologusts trying to justify behavior tbat the police themselves admit was wrong.
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Old 21st November 2018, 07:37 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Paragraph 1 is positively inane. You don't know that he's exaggerating. You're leaping to a conclusion. "No more than the rest of us"? I mean really, that doesn't pass the giggle test, except that it's not funny. One could reasonably assume that the author of those words denies that racism exists.
Don't waste your breath. Thermal asserts that he as a white person gets the police called on him for mundane actions just as often as black people claim to, so he rejects the notion that the African-Americans in these situations are being racially discriminated against. No matter what scenario appears - being accused of shoplifting, being accused without evidence of planning a robbery, being refused entry to buildings, being assumed to not be a member of the gated housing community whose pool he was lounging at - it has all happened to him too that one time. You will not dissuade him from this assessment. He claims a special insight that you cannot possibly counter.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 03:35 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Is it to late to point out that everyone in this scenario is suspect because yogurt is just awful?
Except for the guy at the centre of it, ironically.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 03:45 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Then I will refer you back to my original post


Re the highlighted...they don't.

Here's a thing that might surprise you, we don't even have to give our names to the police even when ordered. Unless we are suspected of committing a crime.

EDIT: the police in the UK work ( well supposed to) for the people, they're supposed to be our friends.

**** knows what's going on in the US.
I'm not US law enforcement. I'm Swedish law enforcement. And the same law applies to us. We don't have to give our names either.

However...

Vacating an area upon lawful command from an officer is a duty for every citizen. That applies in both the UK, Sweden and the US. This command can be worded as an order or as a request. It has the same meaning. You need to leave the area.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 04:07 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Vacating an area upon lawful command from an officer is a duty for every citizen. That applies in both the UK
Wrong.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 05:19 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
He was sitting with two people.

Even if he had been alone, the best way to approach this situation - for a service professional, such as a sales-person at an ice-cream parlor - is to ask "can I help you with your order, sir?"

In a previous life, I worked in service. That's what I did. If you can't, you should change profession to something that doesn't involve interacting with other human beings.
No he wasn't. He was sitting at a table by himself observing the mother and son at a different table. That can be seen as suspicious behavior if you didn't understand its context.

He could've informed with the staff that he didn't intend to patronize the shop and was there to do professional work. That would've saved a lot of trouble but it would've cost skeptics their self-righteous outrage.

Last edited by Baylor; 22nd November 2018 at 05:21 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 22nd November 2018, 06:32 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
He could've informed with the staff that he didn't intend to patronize the shop and was there to do professional work. That would've saved a lot of trouble but it would've cost skeptics their self-righteous outrage.
Er, the staff hadn't said anything to him according to the press report. If they had asked that he purchase something, or asked why he was in the store, no doubt he would have told them.

I hope you're not suggesting that it was the guy's responsibility to check-in with the staff upon entering the store, and explain why he was there. Never mind, that's so entirely asinine, so imbecilic, that obviously that's not what you mean.

So what do you mean?
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Old 22nd November 2018, 06:36 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Yep. Once again, ISF apologusts trying to justify behavior tbat the police themselves admit was wrong.
The police have not earned legitimacy as moral actors. The fact they think something is true is irrelevant.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 06:53 AM   #173
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I'm laughing at myself for even considering this for a nanosecond as a realistic option being proposed here. I'm dense sometimes!

Originally Posted by What the guy didn't say to the yogurt staff upon entering store
Don't worry! I realize a ****** doesn't belong in lily white Kirkland. As implausible as it may sound, what with me being a, well, you know, I'm here for the purpose of... [explanation goes here].
Show of hands, and I expect sincere answers: Has anyone here ever entered a retail establishment knowing they were not going to make a purchase? I have many times. Did you inform staff upon entering the store the purpose of your visit? LOL, of course I didn't. Since when does anyone do that?
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Old 22nd November 2018, 07:50 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Show of hands, and I expect sincere answers: Has anyone here ever entered a retail establishment knowing they were not going to make a purchase? I have many times. Did you inform staff upon entering the store the purpose of your visit? LOL, of course I didn't. Since when does anyone do that?
I have gone into retail establishments countless times without intention of buying anything. But I am there to look at their products, not to look at their customers. There is no reason to voluntarily inform the staff that you are just looking at their products and won't be buying anything unless they ask which they usually do. Then you say, "thanks, I'm just looking".

This guy wasn't looking at the yogurt. He was looking at the mother and son. He would appear to have no interest in the yogurt but a very strong interest in the mother and son.

This could appear to be a red flag regardless of the race of the customer watcher. He doesn't appear to be a simple loiterer who is killing time - he is a customer watcher and is focused on a specific couple.

Maybe I'm missing something.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 07:55 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Show of hands, and I expect sincere answers: Has anyone here ever entered a retail establishment knowing they were not going to make a purchase? I have many times. Did you inform staff upon entering the store the purpose of your visit?
I went into a musical instrument shop on Shaftesbury Avenue once, and felt for some reason I should let the owner know that I wasn't planning to buy anything and he needn't waste too much time on me. He laughed and said, "Like 99% of my customers, then?"

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Old 22nd November 2018, 08:09 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I have gone into retail establishments countless times without intention of buying anything. But I am there to look at their products, not to look at their customers. There is no reason to voluntarily inform the staff that you are just looking at their products and won't be buying anything unless they ask which they usually do. Then you say, "thanks, I'm just looking".

This guy wasn't looking at the yogurt. He was looking at the mother and son. He would appear to have no interest in the yogurt but a very strong interest in the mother and son.

This could appear to be a red flag regardless of the race of the customer watcher. He doesn't appear to be a simple loiterer who is killing time - he is a customer watcher and is focused on a specific couple.

Maybe I'm missing something.
Follow through with it. A man arrives at the store together with a woman and child. They sit a bit apart. The man watches the pair and doesn't buy anything.

You are employed at the store. What do you do?
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Old 22nd November 2018, 08:11 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm not US law enforcement. I'm Swedish law enforcement. And the same law applies to us. We don't have to give our names either.

However...

Vacating an area upon lawful command from an officer is a duty for every citizen. That applies in both the UK, Sweden and the US. This command can be worded as an order or as a request. It has the same meaning. You need to leave the area.
lawful command is not a request.
RE: the highlighted. Not in the UK as far as I am aware, the police can only tell you to vacate an area if they believe you are committing or going to be committing a breach of the peace, and they should tell you the reason why when you ask.
The police certainly can't legally tell you to leave on a whim and you have no obligation to do so if they just request you to leave, they would have to explain why, then order you to leave under threat of possibly being arrested for breach of the peace, for instance.

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Old 22nd November 2018, 08:14 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
lawful command is not a request.
No, it isn't. And a policeman won't request you to leave the area. You may think it's worded as a request, but it's not.

Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
RE: the highlighted. Not in the UK as far as I am aware, they can only do so if they believe you are committing or going to be committing a breach of the peace, and they should tell you the reason why when you ask.
The police certainly can't legally do it on a whim.
Doing it on a whim wouldn't be a lawful command. In this thread we're not discussing anything done on a whim, nor was I describing that.

This is getting quite off-topic. If you are interested in learning how police authority works, pm me.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 08:22 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
A man arrives at the store together with a woman and child.
Explain to me what you mean by together and do it strictly from the perspective of a store employee. The three entered the store at the same time, or that they were obviously a social unit of three?

Go ahead.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 08:22 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Explain to me what you mean by together and do it strictly from the perspective of a store employee. The three entered the store at the same time, or that they were obviously a social unit of three?

Go ahead.
They entered at the same time.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 08:29 AM   #181
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Oh, come on. The solution's easy: go to the man and ask if he wants to buy something. Then he tells you no, he's there to watch the mother and child as part of her visitation rights, and he's there for the state. Then either leave him alone or ask him to either buy something or leave.

I don't see the employees reacting this way if this guy was white.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 08:41 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
They entered at the same time.
How then would it be established that they are a social unit of three as opposed to three people entering at the same time?
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Old 22nd November 2018, 08:46 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I have gone into retail establishments countless times without intention of buying anything. But I am there to look at their products, not to look at their customers. There is no reason to voluntarily inform the staff that you are just looking at their products and won't be buying anything unless they ask which they usually do. Then you say, "thanks, I'm just looking".

This guy wasn't looking at the yogurt. He was looking at the mother and son. He would appear to have no interest in the yogurt but a very strong interest in the mother and son.

This could appear to be a red flag regardless of the race of the customer watcher. He doesn't appear to be a simple loiterer who is killing time - he is a customer watcher and is focused on a specific couple.

Maybe I'm missing something.
Those are valid reasons for the staff to have asked him, not freak out.

I've entered retail establishments not intending to purchase, not intending to even look, e.g. meeting a friend, getting out of the rain, needing a wireless connection, looking for a restroom, etc. I've never once felt slightly obligated to inform staff, and I suspect that is true of most people.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 08:47 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
But it was an Asian who called the cops. Can Asians be racist? I await further information.
A person of any race can be racist.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 09:45 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
An Asian called Ramon Cruz may get more than usual.
Filipino?
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Old 22nd November 2018, 09:48 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Those are valid reasons for the staff to have asked him, not freak out.

I've entered retail establishments not intending to purchase, not intending to even look, e.g. meeting a friend, getting out of the rain, needing a wireless connection, looking for a restroom, etc. I've never once felt slightly obligated to inform staff, and I suspect that is true of most people.
If a person does not approach the cash register or refrigerated yogurt display then it is highly likely that they aren't there for yogurt. At that point, asking them if they need help (choosing a yogurt?) serves as a different purpose. It is to establish a brief dialogue with a person who appears to not want anything at all other than to be inside the establishment. Often that itself is just fine. But here we are talking about a single person entering the yogurt shop as opposed to a person being one of a social group that entered together. It can change how the staff interacts with the one who isn't ordering anything nor appears to be unable to make a decision about which yogurt to order.

We seem to be missing factual information about what these three did when they entered at the same time. Maybe I'm missing something myself. Did mother and son have staff scoop some yogurt? Did any of them approach the register or the yogurt display?

Given the actions of the staff I am nearly certain that they saw that these three are apparently not a social unit and I'm not prepared to assume that that was strictly because the third party is black. It was probably because they observed no social interaction at all. The only thing that they observed was that the guy is intently and intensively watching them from close proximity. The mother and son show no behavior that suggests that the third guy has any relationship to them at all. This presents a highly unusual scene and could easily arouse suspicion regardless of the race of the watcher guy.

The staff didn't call police and instead called the manager/owner for advice. Maybe they were thinking that this was better than dialing 911 right away.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 09:50 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Filipino?
That has about a 90% confidence level when an Asian is named Ramon Cruz.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 10:09 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
If a person does not approach the cash register or refrigerated yogurt display then it is highly likely that they aren't there for yogurt. At that point, asking them if they need help (choosing a yogurt?) serves as a different purpose. It is to establish a brief dialogue with a person who appears to not want anything at all other than to be inside the establishment. Often that itself is just fine. But here we are talking about a single person entering the yogurt shop as opposed to a person being one of a social group that entered together. It can change how the staff interacts with the one who isn't ordering anything nor appears to be unable to make a decision about which yogurt to order.

We seem to be missing factual information about what these three did when they entered at the same time. Maybe I'm missing something myself. Did mother and son have staff scoop some yogurt? Did any of them approach the register or the yogurt display?

Given the actions of the staff I am nearly certain that they saw that these three are apparently not a social unit and I'm not prepared to assume that that was strictly because the third party is black. It was probably because they observed no social interaction at all. The only thing that they observed was that the guy is intently and intensively watching them from close proximity. The mother and son show no behavior that suggests that the third guy has any relationship to them at all. This presents a highly unusual scene and could easily arouse suspicion regardless of the race of the watcher guy.

The staff didn't call police and instead called the manager/owner for advice. Maybe they were thinking that this was better than dialing 911 right away.
I was reading along, not quite agreeing, but not disagreeing either, at least not enough to counter. And then I read this bend-over-backwards-until-I'm-a-pretzel presumption, emphasis on "probably".
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Old 22nd November 2018, 10:24 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
He could've informed with the staff that he didn't intend to patronize the shop and was there to do professional work. That would've saved a lot of trouble but it would've cost skeptics their self-righteous outrage.
I would have thought that he would not be able to tell them the type of work he was doing, because that could potentially breach the client confidentiality of the mother and/or child. In the absence of that, simply saying, "I'm working," would be likely to be met with a curt, "This is not your office."

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Old 22nd November 2018, 10:38 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I'll go with all three. It's a bizarre state of affairs. If the far right wanted to play down the effect of racism they literally could do no better than jumping on the 'whilst black' bandwagon. I'm not just talking about this forum but on social media and even the mainstream media. I don't object to discussions of obvious racism that have a point beyond scoring internet points yet the first message from threads like this (OK, not this one as I know it's a parody, but most) is that this is as bad as racism gets. This is what we choose to talk about rather than actual social issues such as why in the US do blacks and whites invariably self-segregate (from each other). Has anybody asked them? Maybe not. A woman is asked for ID, a guy is stopped in his car, a guy is asked to leave a coffee shop, it's mind numbing. Another idea for those concerned is to stop the incessant white-bashing. Yes, whites can be racist, but so can everybody else. Problems aren't solved by demonising the very people who must be on board to solve them.
I see what you mean, and I agree 100% that racism is a human-kind issue, and that blaming or bashing any race is ineffective (most obviously because it is another form of racism). I think you make a good point as well that discussing and working out the underlying issues that create and strengthen racist thinking and actions is likely more productive than debating the unknown details surrounding particular events that may be examples thereof.

I think part of the intention behind the "...whilst black" movement is to try to highlight some of the subtle ways that racism can manifest itself, which may help people recognize opportunities for small changes in their communities or mentalities. This may be helpful for people who don't experience "serious" racism day-to-day, or feel incapable of tackling the major causes thereof. I hope that lots of people making small changes can help support efforts towards deeper change. I can appreciate your perspective though that if expressing indignation in the comments section of a news article is all that is accomplished, that is not likely to help.

Thanks again for taking the time to express your perspective. Cheers.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 10:45 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I was reading along, not quite agreeing, but not disagreeing either, at least not enough to counter. And then I read this bend-over-backwards-until-I'm-a-pretzel presumption, emphasis on "probably".
You just don't get it.

Any form of social interaction between the woman and the child (who interacting socially) and the third guy cancels all suspicious thoughts that may have preceded that. It only requires an exchange of words, non-verbal gestures, smiles, laughter or anything else that would indicate that those folks are together. Any suspicions (racist or not) ought to be immediately canceled.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 10:47 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
<snip for brevity>
It's my goal from this time forward to be this thoughtful, respectful, snark-free, and clear in the way I express myself. I mean that.

Day one: not going so well.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 11:00 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
In my state, it's this:

"I do solemnly swear that I will support the Constitutions of the United States and of the State of Tennessee, and the ordinances of the City of ____________________, and will well and faithfully perform the duties imposed upon me as a police officer of the City
of to the best of my ability; and that I will serve the United States, the State of Tennessee, and the City of ________________honestly and faithfully, and will obey the orders of the officers and officials placed over me according to law."

So, significantly different from the UK oath. Nothing about peace.
Interesting ... here's our provincial Police Oath

" I solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will be loyal to Her Majesty the Queen and to Canada, and that I will uphold the Constitution of Canada and that I will, to the best of my ability, preserve the peace, prevent offences and discharge my other duties as (insert name of office) faithfully, impartially and according to law.

So help me God. (Omit this line in an affirmation.) "
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Old 22nd November 2018, 11:23 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I would have thought that he would not be able to tell them the type of work he was doing, because that could potentially breach the client confidentiality of the mother and/or child. In the absence of that, simply saying, "I'm working," would be likely to be met with a curt, "This is not your office."
I would have thought that saying “I’m with them” would suffice. Not everyone in a group needs to buy something, at least in every cafe and restaurant I’ve been in.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 11:26 AM   #195
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There was no good excuse to call the police. There was at most an excuse to talk to the man himself or the woman he was watching. That's it. Anyone excusing the call to the police is racist or excusing racism, and the latter is no better than the former.

A yogurt shop in America simply isn't such a dangerous place that an employee can't engage with a random person in their store without police support. Frankly, the fact that they still threw him out after getting the perfectly valid reason he was there only confirms that both the manager and responding cops are racist pieces of ****.

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Old 22nd November 2018, 11:56 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
There was no good excuse to call the police. There was at most an excuse to talk to the man himself or the woman he was watching. That's it. Anyone excusing the call to the police is racist or excusing racism, and the latter is no better than the former.

A yogurt shop in America simply isn't such a dangerous place that an employee can't engage with a random person in their store without police support. Frankly, the fact that they still threw him out after getting the perfectly valid reason he was there only confirms that both the manager and responding cops are racist pieces of ****.
Good point. Presumably the owner was still monitoring the security system. The valid reason didn't matter to the staff, the owner, or the cops. There should have been apologies on the spot.

@William Parcher -- this renders your amorphous argument null and void.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 12:00 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Good point. Presumably the owner was still monitoring the security system. The valid reason didn't matter to the staff, the owner, or the cops. There should have been apologies on the spot.

@William Parcher -- this renders your amorphous argument null and void.
Agree on both points.

The apologetics in this thread is nauseous.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 12:06 PM   #198
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Since when have retail and hospitality staff become such snowflakes? Their job is to serve people of all types, whether paying or sitting with someone else, with courtesy. Not to judge them or talk themselves into a state of uneasiness whenever someone they (absurdly) think looks out of place walks into a store. The staff need retraining, or be told they are not suited to a job like this.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 12:11 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Good point. Presumably the owner was still monitoring the security system. The valid reason didn't matter to the staff, the owner, or the cops. There should have been apologies on the spot.
The point at which the scumbags double down in these situations is the point at which the apologists should back away and find an easier target. While calling 911 would remain ridiculous and racist, at least accepting his explanation would have indicated the potential for learning a good lesson. Instead, the lesson is that police officers will enforce the racist whims of any business.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 12:11 PM   #200
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Thumbs up

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It's my goal from this time forward to be this thoughtful, respectful, snark-free, and clear in the way I express myself. I mean that.

Day one: not going so well.
Thank you varwoche. That's really kind of you. Here's to more productive discourse in the future.
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