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Old 22nd November 2018, 12:41 PM   #201
baron
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Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
I see what you mean, and I agree 100% that racism is a human-kind issue, and that blaming or bashing any race is ineffective (most obviously because it is another form of racism). I think you make a good point as well that discussing and working out the underlying issues that create and strengthen racist thinking and actions is likely more productive than debating the unknown details surrounding particular events that may be examples thereof.

I think part of the intention behind the "...whilst black" movement is to try to highlight some of the subtle ways that racism can manifest itself, which may help people recognize opportunities for small changes in their communities or mentalities. This may be helpful for people who don't experience "serious" racism day-to-day, or feel incapable of tackling the major causes thereof. I hope that lots of people making small changes can help support efforts towards deeper change. I can appreciate your perspective though that if expressing indignation in the comments section of a news article is all that is accomplished, that is not likely to help.
The issue is confused in that there are multiple intentions behind this sort of 'whilst black' behaviour, on this forum and in the wider world. Sometimes it's well intentioned, either as a discussion point regarding the specifics of an incident or the highlighting of an event to raise awareness. Most of the time, IMO, it's not about trying to solve a problem, it's plain virtue signalling, a cliched phrase but an apt one. The message is not, "Here's a typical example of racism; how can we rise above this sort of thing as a society?", it's "Got one! Look at me, I care so much about this!" followed by mutual backslappery and the implicit challenge to anybody to question their conclusion and risk running the 'racist' gauntlet.

Returning to this forum I doubt there's anybody who could seriously suggest that these 'whilst black' threads have made any positive impact whatsoever on the thinking of readers. Quite the opposite, you can see it in the comments.

Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
Thanks again for taking the time to express your perspective. Cheers.
Thank you.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 12:56 PM   #202
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The main purposes behind reporting and discussing these events are to make people aware that, yeah, people are still behaving stupidly and openly racist, causing non-white people to feel uncomfortable just going about their daily normal lives; and to, hopefully, make people think about how they behave and how they perceive people who look different from them.

The discussions on this forum make it very apparent that there's a long way to go since there are so many who want desperately to justify this kind of stupid, racist behavior.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 01:44 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Given the actions of the staff I am nearly certain that they saw that these three are apparently not a social unit and I'm not prepared to assume that that was strictly because the third party is black.
The police, however, knew exactly what was going on because it was explained to them. They asked them to leave anyway. Does this make any difference to your opinion?
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The staff didn't call police and instead called the manager/owner for advice. Maybe they were thinking that this was better than dialing 911 right away.
I think that technically, they were supposed to call 911. That policy has now become "call a manager." Which is what they did, and that's fine. What I think is dodgy is telling someone to leave because they don't make the staff comfortable. Could have been a teachable moment.

Maybe this has been addressed. I'm not caught up.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 03:56 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
If a person does not approach the cash register or refrigerated yogurt display then it is highly likely that they aren't there for yogurt. At that point, asking them if they need help (choosing a yogurt?) serves as a different purpose. It is to establish a brief dialogue with a person who appears to not want anything at all other than to be inside the establishment. Often that itself is just fine. But here we are talking about a single person entering the yogurt shop as opposed to a person being one of a social group that entered together. It can change how the staff interacts with the one who isn't ordering anything nor appears to be unable to make a decision about which yogurt to order.

We seem to be missing factual information about what these three did when they entered at the same time. Maybe I'm missing something myself. Did mother and son have staff scoop some yogurt? Did any of them approach the register or the yogurt display?

Given the actions of the staff I am nearly certain that they saw that these three are apparently not a social unit and I'm not prepared to assume that that was strictly because the third party is black. It was probably because they observed no social interaction at all. The only thing that they observed was that the guy is intently and intensively watching them from close proximity. The mother and son show no behavior that suggests that the third guy has any relationship to them at all. This presents a highly unusual scene and could easily arouse suspicion regardless of the race of the watcher guy.

The staff didn't call police and instead called the manager/owner for advice. Maybe they were thinking that this was better than dialing 911 right away.
It is really not that difficult. Their litteral job is to communicate with people and try to provide them with a service/consumable good for money. A quick "Hi sir, can we help you order?" would have been sufficient for them to engage him and obtain further information, and is well within any normal retail environment customer service job requirements. If necessary they could then confirm with the female that what he said was correct. If they needed the seating for paying customers, they can then politely advise the three of that but allow them to remain whilst the mother and son finish their yoghurt.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 04:03 PM   #205
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At the very least, "I don't care what colour you are, you either eat a yoghurt or **** off." That would initiate contact, establish non-racist credentials and lay out ongoing options in one fell swoop.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 04:09 PM   #206
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Perhaps yogurt shops in your community are laid back safe-places to not enjoy ice cream. This shop had been robbed and often has folks shooting drugs in the bathroom. The young ladies manning the counter were justifiably on alert and cautious.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 04:23 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
Perhaps yogurt shops in your community are laid back safe-places to not enjoy ice cream. This shop had been robbed and often has folks shooting drugs in the bathroom. The young ladies manning the counter were justifiably on alert and cautious.
You overlook a critical detail: This is according to the store owner. This is a person sitting on a scalding hot seat. Demonstrations have taken place in front of the store, his noxious behavior is plastered all over the news, there's a threat of a lawsuit, and franchise HQ is none too happy about it.

If he calls the cops for this non incident, I would expect there to be a substantial record of past calls to the police for the robberies and drug incidents.

In short, this should be taken with a large grain of salt, and certainly shouldn't be presented as fact until these purported incidents are confirmed.

I've spent a lot of time in the Totem Lake neighborhood of Kirkland. I've never gotten any sense that it was a high crime neighborhood. I've been wrong with such assessments before.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 04:37 PM   #208
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You're skeptical that the owner is truthful about a robbery? I guess this is the forum for it.

This is such a fringe occurrence. The vast majority of the time when a lone man is loitering around a place frequented by children for the sole purpose of watching kids, he is NOT court appointed.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 04:41 PM   #209
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Let me Google that for you.
http://www.kirklandreporter.com/news...g-for-suspect/
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Old 22nd November 2018, 04:43 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
You're skeptical that the owner is truthful about a robbery? I guess this is the forum for it.

This is such a fringe occurrence. The vast majority of the time when a lone man is loitering around a place frequented by children for the sole purpose of watching kids, he is NOT court appointed.
To what end then? Choose your next move carefully.

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Old 22nd November 2018, 04:56 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
You're skeptical that the owner is truthful about a robbery? I guess this is the forum for it.

This is such a fringe occurrence. The vast majority of the time when a lone man is loitering around a place frequented by children for the sole purpose of watching kids, he is NOT court appointed.
Not quite. More like, I'm skeptical that the past crime is as bad as he indicates.

When we want to get at the truth of a matter, it's important not to overstate one's confidence in a presumed fact. "According to X" is a short and sweet way to accomplish that. Especially when X is a biased source beyond any doubt, with a cornucopia of motivation to exaggerate. This is no small deal so far as I'm concerned.

You guess right.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 06:55 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
The issue is confused in that there are multiple intentions behind this sort of 'whilst black' behaviour, on this forum and in the wider world. Sometimes it's well intentioned, either as a discussion point regarding the specifics of an incident or the highlighting of an event to raise awareness. Most of the time, IMO, it's not about trying to solve a problem, it's plain virtue signalling, a cliched phrase but an apt one. The message is not, "Here's a typical example of racism; how can we rise above this sort of thing as a society?", it's "Got one! Look at me, I care so much about this!" followed by mutual backslappery and the implicit challenge to anybody to question their conclusion and risk running the 'racist' gauntlet.

Returning to this forum I doubt there's anybody who could seriously suggest that these 'whilst black' threads have made any positive impact whatsoever on the thinking of readers. Quite the opposite, you can see it in the comments.

Thank you.
Yes. Points well taken. (and "mutual back-slappery" made me laugh). I can understand the desire to antagonize that kind of perceived behaviour too.

I've followed a few different discussion forums for several years, but just joined one (this one) for the first time and as you can see I have only made a handful of comments. I feel like there are a lot of intelligent and articulate people on many similar forums and yet the discourses frequently devolve so quickly that the potential for productive debate and discussion (and maybe even reconsideration of positions) is lost. I guess that speaks to your point on the lack of real positive impact. Sometimes though, I see instances where people really try to understand another's perspective; they seek to clarify misunderstandings and avoid negative presumptions and it feels like the best of humanity; it feels like hope. I guess in participating here, I want to try to steer the discourse, in some small way, towards hope. Who knows, maybe if some others join in, over time, it might make a difference.

I look forward to running into you again in different threads.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 06:57 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Agree on both points.

The apologetics in this thread is nauseous.
I'm honestly surprised that some of the folks in this thread manage to spend more than 5 minutes outside without collapsing in a panic attack. Every stranger out there could be a terrorist, after all.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 08:56 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Not quite. More like, I'm skeptical that the past crime is as bad as he indicates..
If you read my previous link you'll see that Cruz the manager has had his staff robbed at gunpoint at this store. What exactly should he have done when his current staff calls about a suspicious non-customer loitering and staring at people? His primary responsibility is they safety of his staff, not avoiding perceived racism.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 09:02 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
You're skeptical that the owner is truthful about a robbery? I guess this is the forum for it.

This is such a fringe occurrence. The vast majority of the time when a lone man is loitering around a place frequented by children for the sole purpose of watching kids, he is NOT court appointed.
I don't know if your claim is true and would like to see proof.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 09:16 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
...This is such a fringe occurrence. The vast majority of the time when a lone man is loitering around a place frequented by children for the sole purpose of watching kids, he is NOT court appointed.
According to the staff, he was looking at his phone and at the staff. "Sole purpose of watching kids" is you making stuff up.

Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
If you read my previous link you'll see that Cruz the manager has had his staff robbed at gunpoint at this store. What exactly should he have done when his current staff calls about a suspicious non-customer loitering and staring at people? His primary responsibility is they safety of his staff, not avoiding perceived racism.
Tell them to say "May we help you sir?"

But even if we give the owner the benefit of the doubt, why did Ragland get tossed even after the situation was explained? I don't think you or anyone else is able to justify that.

My point stands about foisting unsubstantiated claims as if they are facts. All the more so when the source is a person with a strong motive to exaggerate. Speaking of which, if you uncover evidence that bad guys were doing drugs in the restroom, I trust you'll post it.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 09:30 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Re paragraph 2 ... To the extent true, this is an issue pertaining to ISF posters, not the guy. This doesn't justify calling him out.
I don't know how to make it any clearer. A LWB issue is supposed to make people aware of harassment and indignities that are fueled by racism, subtle and overt. If the OP guy says 'it was just another Wednesday', he is claiming this is a pretty frequent occurrence. I'd like some idea of how frequent it is. Serious question: would that not help to illustrate whether having the cops called on him was the kind of everyday event that these threads are made out to be?

That paragraph you criticize, btw, was not calling him out. You are confusing it with a different post.

Quote:
Paragraph 1 is positively inane. You don't know that he's exaggerating. You're leaping to a conclusion. "No more than the rest of us"? I mean really, that doesn't pass the giggle test, except that it's not funny. One could reasonably assume that the author of those words denies that racism exists.
Than One forgot to read it if One reached that conclusion. Allow me to clarify for One:

He describes one instance of having cops called on him for suspicious looking behavior. This happened in a store plagued by crimes, as reported. This is not a unique or evidently racially motivated incident. I have police called on me with fair regularity (I am a contractor who ends up running around vacant properties a lot, sometimes at night). This is not denying racism; this is pointing out that the description provided seems to have nothing to do with race and a lot to do with the reasonable perception of suspicious behavior.

Serious question: do you think that is really a denial that racism exists?
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Old 22nd November 2018, 09:33 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Don't waste your breath. Thermal asserts that he as a white person gets the police called on him for mundane actions just as often as black people claim to, so he rejects the notion that the African-Americans in these situations are being racially discriminated against. No matter what scenario appears - being accused of shoplifting, being accused without evidence of planning a robbery, being refused entry to buildings, being assumed to not be a member of the gated housing community whose pool he was lounging at - it has all happened to him too that one time. You will not dissuade him from this assessment. He claims a special insight that you cannot possibly counter.
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12/0
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Old 22nd November 2018, 10:59 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
The main purposes behind reporting and discussing these events are to make people aware that, yeah, people are still behaving stupidly and openly racist, causing non-white people to feel uncomfortable just going about their daily normal lives; and to, hopefully, make people think about how they behave and how they perceive people who look different from them.

The discussions on this forum make it very apparent that there's a long way to go since there are so many who want desperately to justify this kind of stupid, racist behavior.
And maybe one day you will realise this is an international forum, and while I see little chance of there being a separate sub forum for US racism being created, if everyone else has to get blasted with these these threads on the main page, you might at least include "US" in posts like this instead of just chucking everyone else into your generalisations
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Old 22nd November 2018, 11:21 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
And maybe one day you will realise this is an international forum, and while I see little chance of there being a separate sub forum for US racism being created, if everyone else has to get blasted with these these threads on the main page, you might at least include "US" in posts like this instead of just chucking everyone else into your generalisations
Are you claiming that there is no racism in NZ?
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Old 22nd November 2018, 11:27 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Are you claiming that there is no racism in NZ?
Nope
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Old 23rd November 2018, 12:02 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Nope
Good. Then what exactly are you saying?

Make it simple. Pretend you are explaining your point to a seven year old.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 12:32 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Good. Then what exactly are you saying?

Make it simple. Pretend you are explaining your point to a seven year old.
A particularly antagonistic and obnoxious seven year old.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 01:01 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
A particularly antagonistic and obnoxious seven year old.
Because children should never question anything. Right?

And I love how asking people to make their points clear is now considered "antagonistic and obnoxious".

You righties are adorable.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 01:02 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
How then would it be established that they are a social unit of three as opposed to three people entering at the same time?
I answered your question, now answer mine.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 01:10 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Good. Then what exactly are you saying?

Make it simple. Pretend you are explaining your point to a seven year old.
The post I was replying to was justifying/explaining all the while black threads.

They are all American
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Old 23rd November 2018, 01:13 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The post I was replying to was justifying/explaining all the while black threads.

They are all American
That's not an answer. What exactly are you trying to say? Spell it out for me. Use your words.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 01:23 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
That's not an answer. What are you saying? Spell it out for me.
I think you might mean that isn't the answer that suits you.

I am saying that we get inundated every couple of days with US threads with examples of blatant racism in the US.

Then someone says we have to do it because "people are still behaving stupidly and openly racist"

Which is obviously true in the US.

While there are examples of racism in NZ, it is certainly very very rarely openly racist.

And of the very very few examples over the years when this has happened, there is no real argument about it. Every body just treats the perpetrator like the scum they are.

So it would be slightly more accurate to say "In the US people are still behaving stupidly and openly racist"
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Old 23rd November 2018, 01:40 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I think you might mean that isn't the answer that suits you.

I am saying that we get inundated every couple of days with US threads with examples of blatant racism in the US.

Then someone says we have to do it because "people are still behaving stupidly and openly racist"

Which is obviously true in the US.

While there are examples of racism in NZ, it is certainly very very rarely openly racist.

And of the very very few examples over the years when this has happened, there is no real argument about it. Every body just treats the perpetrator like the scum they are.

So it would be slightly more accurate to say "In the US people are still behaving stupidly and openly racist"
Right, so you are upset that on a forum with a majority of members from a country that has a crap-ton of racists, some of those members create threads about racism?

And you'd rather not see that, because there is less racism where you live.

That makes no sense at all.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 01:44 AM   #230
Babbylonian
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New Zealand population: 4.9 million
Minority percentage: 26%

United States population: 323 million
Minority percentage: 39%


ETA: Also, this is an English language forum. The US has the largest number of English speakers in the world. It shouldn't be surprising that the forum would have a US slant to it.

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Old 23rd November 2018, 01:52 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Right, so you are upset that on a forum with a majority of members from a country that has a crap-ton of racists, some of those members create threads about racism?

And you'd rather not see that, because there is less racism where you live.

That makes no sense at all.
I'm not upset about anything. It isn't that majorly important

Just pointing out if it has to be all separate threads on this sub forum, it might be nice to not make out it is a global issue.

It may even help to solve the issue more easily if people realise that it seems to be a US culture thing probably partly due to the historical prejudice and to address it from that perspective.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 01:58 AM   #232
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Should add that the day I actually get upset about the something on an internet forum is the day I will never go on another internet forum.

Geesh....It's an internet forum
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

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Old 23rd November 2018, 02:05 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Because children should never question anything. Right?

And I love how asking people to make their points clear is now considered "antagonistic and obnoxious".

You righties are adorable.
No, that question wasn't what made the imaginary 7 year old antagonistic and obnoxious. You seem to be making a habit of missing the mark.

Hint, body of work......
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Old 23rd November 2018, 02:34 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
This shop had been robbed and often has folks shooting drugs in the bathroom. The young ladies manning the counter were justifiably on alert and cautious.
He didn't say "often," just that it had happened. And I'm not sure what would make their caution "justifiable." Did he look homeless? Do robbers usually sit around before a heist?

Nevertheless, having worked alone in a store while young and female I have no problem with them calling the manager. It's that the police got the whole story and still asked him to leave. You have, maybe inadvertently, posted one of the clearest LWB examples I've ever seen.

But, perhaps they were also triggered because he was young and male. Which is sad in itself, but in any case it turned out he had a totally legitimate reason to be there. Only by then he had probably sussed out what happened, and the staff was probably "grateful" because his staying would have been a new kind of awkward - "oops, he knows we called the cops on him."

ETA:
Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
If you read my previous link you'll see that Cruz the manager has had his staff robbed at gunpoint at this store.
He never said this. Maybe a gun was involved, maybe not, but the point is, I think you are making stuff up.

The audio is not loading for me at the moment, and if I'm wrong, let me apologize, profusely, in advance, but it seems to me that you are adding details as you go along. The story doesn't say anything about a gun. Neither does the other story, about the earlier robbery.

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Old 23rd November 2018, 02:51 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
This guy wasn't looking at the yogurt. He was looking at the mother and son. He would appear to have no interest in the yogurt but a very strong interest in the mother and son.
I believe what the manager said was that he was looking at staff members, not customers, because the manager uses the pronoun "them," and the only "them" in that call was the staff members.

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
He doesn't appear to be a simple loiterer who is killing time - he is a customer watcher and is focused on a specific couple.
Specifically, a couple of staff members. The call says nothing about him looking at customers.

The audio won't play for me right now, but as above, if I'm wrong, accept my apologies. I've listened several times because people keep adding details and I keep checking the source.

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Maybe I'm missing something.
I believe the fact that he was a young man tipped the balance. If it had been a black woman or an elderly male, the staff's reaction might have been different. This is beginning to seem more and more likely to me.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 02:57 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Yep. Once again, ISF apologusts trying to justify behavior tbat the police themselves admit was wrong.
WTF? How am I justifying their behavior? It was wrong, I said it was wrong and the cops admitted it was wrong. Which of those three statements makes me an apologist?

ETA1: I say it's worth mentioning because the OP link was a column that didn't mention the cops' response. In a news story, protocol would have been to get a quote from the cops. Under a "related" bug the paper quoted the police response. These are basics that should be in any news story. I was rounding out the anecdote by reporting the PD's response.

ETA2:
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I would have thought that he would not be able to tell them the type of work he was doing, because that could potentially breach the client confidentiality of the mother and/or child. In the absence of that, simply saying, "I'm working," would be likely to be met with a curt, "This is not your office."
This is an excellent point.

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Old 23rd November 2018, 03:09 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
Yes. Points well taken. (and "mutual back-slappery" made me laugh). I can understand the desire to antagonize that kind of perceived behaviour too.

I've followed a few different discussion forums for several years, but just joined one (this one) for the first time and as you can see I have only made a handful of comments. I feel like there are a lot of intelligent and articulate people on many similar forums and yet the discourses frequently devolve so quickly that the potential for productive debate and discussion (and maybe even reconsideration of positions) is lost. I guess that speaks to your point on the lack of real positive impact. Sometimes though, I see instances where people really try to understand another's perspective; they seek to clarify misunderstandings and avoid negative presumptions and it feels like the best of humanity; it feels like hope. I guess in participating here, I want to try to steer the discourse, in some small way, towards hope. Who knows, maybe if some others join in, over time, it might make a difference.
You never know. Constructive debates are possible, although I think you'll find much of the same behaviour on this forum as the others, namely a polemic dismissal and vilification of 'the other' without even listening to their points. From me too, sometimes.

Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
I look forward to running into you again in different threads.
I guarantee you're the only one.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 03:24 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
The vast majority of the time when a lone man is loitering around a place frequented by children for the sole purpose of watching kids, he is NOT court appointed.
He wasn't watching kids, at least, not according to the 911 call. He said the man was looking on his phone then looking at "them" and the only "them" mentioned are the staff members.

Originally Posted by baron View Post
At the very least, "I don't care what colour you are, you either eat a yoghurt or **** off." That would initiate contact, establish non-racist credentials and lay out ongoing options in one fell swoop.
That sounds like my level of customer service.

Thank God for UK members - who else could I argue with at 3:23 a.m.?
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Old 23rd November 2018, 03:32 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
You overlook a critical detail: This is according to the store owner. This is a person sitting on a scalding hot seat. Demonstrations have taken place in front of the store, his noxious behavior is plastered all over the news, there's a threat of a lawsuit, and franchise HQ is none too happy about it.
And this is exactly the reason why the vast majority of people are turned off by this crap. A guy is guilty of, at worst, stereotyping a customer and causing him embarrassment and suddenly he's a national figure of hate, subject to threats and financial penalties and the loss of his job and livelihood.

Why are these people even protesting? Are they standing up for the rights of black people or are they highlighting the presence in their community of someone with occasional fallible judgement and who cannot lay claim to being a perfect and saintly person? If it's the latter then maybe a well-known quote from Jesus can help out; if the former then they should be aware that statistically at least one black man has been murdered in the US by another black man during the time they were wailing outside the store. Black people are being murdered by black people in staggering numbers, outnumbering whites by an average of 2700% and over 5000% in some states*. But the protesters don't care about protesting the deaths of these black people, because there's no white or Asian to demonise, they would rather focus their energies on a guy momentarily inconvenienced in a yogurt shop.

*The number of blacks killed by whites is not factored into these stats but is so small as to be broadly insignificant standing at under 1% of all homicides.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 03:57 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
Sometimes though, I see instances where people really try to understand another's perspective; they seek to clarify misunderstandings and avoid negative presumptions and it feels like the best of humanity; it feels like hope. I guess in participating here, I want to try to steer the discourse, in some small way, towards hope.
The only place I've really seen that is here. (Except specialty sites that talk about cooking, or chess, etc.). The "yer an idiot, no, yer an idiot stuff gets old fast.

Personal attacks on other members are forbidden. People still get digs in but if it goes too far some posts are banished to the "Abandon all Hope" category. So your remark about "hope" is very relevant.

Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
Who knows, maybe if some others join in, over time, it might make a difference.
Not sure I'd go that far ... but the discipline of not insulting people, backing up claims with evidence and limiting sarcasm is good practice for keeping a civil conversation going. Even if my mind isn't changed I get a better understanding of why people believe what they do. Which is more interesting, IMO, than the instant hostility encountered elsewhere. Welcome to the forum .
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