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Old 22nd November 2018, 09:59 AM   #81
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Look, not even North Sentinelese police officers can be trained to reliably shoot a fish out of a delusional religious fanatic's hand, and you expect a child to do it? Pshaw!
But this is no ordinary fish. This one is laying perfectly still on the sand. An ordinary fish is swimming. This fish is a god or a demon. Either way the proper response is to shoot it with the arrow.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 10:00 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
A well-meaning Christian man is dead, and members of ISF just crack jokes about the retard.
If only he had had a gun.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 10:06 AM   #83
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I'm expecting an incident where some busybody or group tries to send a drone to the island.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 10:26 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
In what conceivable way, apart from the fact that they both died?
It was by a group, in a remote location, and were hostile to outsiders.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 10:39 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
This is why we need bow and arrow control.
The only thing that can stop an assault by a bad guy with a fish is a good guy with a bow and arrow!
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Old 22nd November 2018, 10:58 AM   #86
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There's a memoir by a 19th century sailor who washed up on one of the Solomon Islands and spent several years as a slave in an indigenous village. He managed to escape after some time, but later returned as an interpreter on an Australian recruiting ship.
https://www.amazon.com/White-Headhun.../dp/0786712562
First heard about him in a video by youtuber Lindybeige.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 22nd November 2018, 01:28 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
- Yeah we're way past the "Convert the Heathens" stage in our civilizations development I like to think.

- Having said that having in 2018 an official policy of "Yeah there's just this island full of people that will kill you if you go there, so we just leave them be" seems... off to me.
I don't blame these people one bit. They're smart.

We humans do have a rather spotty track record of "discovering" new lands and civilizations, then destroying them. It's what we do.

This idiot missionary is a perfect example. "Hi, I am here to change your culture you dumb natives!" These are exactly the types of people to watch out for. Maybe they watch CNN and know what type of people we are.

They obviously know the value of a secure border. Why let intruders change their culture and way of life? And kill them.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 03:59 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
His bible stopped an arrow; it's a miracle! Shame about all the other arrows really.
Definitely a missed opportunity. He could have fined out on that for the rest of his life. Hmmm...maybe he did.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 04:07 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
The only thing that can stop an assault by a bad guy with a fish is a good guy with a bow and arrow a bigger, badder, legal fish!
Helping.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 04:53 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
- Having said that having in 2018 an official policy of "Yeah there's just this island full of people that will kill you if you go there, so we just leave them be" seems... off to me.
Well let's explore that for a moment.

Here are the facts: the tribe will actively attack anyone who lands with lethal force, without exception. Even the children will attack, as most recently demonstrated. Their language is completely unknown, even to the tribes on neighboring islands, meaning no direct communication is possible, in person or from a distance. It has been made clear over multiple attempts that the tribe does not accept "gifts" as evidence of friendly intentions (indeed, it's never been clear that the tribe thinks of the objects in terms of "gifts", or are even familiar with that concept in theory).

North Sentinel is roughly the size of Manhattan; a large island in the context of the single tribe that occupies it but as far as the larger world goes, it's a tiny island with no real strategic, political, or economic value lost to anyone by leaving it off-limits. Still, you express reservations about whether enforced isolation is the best response to this dilemma. For the time being, let us ignore the matter of disease transmission/lack of immunity, or assume that could be mitigated in theory: what do you propose as a better way of dealing with this situation?
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Old 22nd November 2018, 06:31 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Well let's explore that for a moment.

Here are the facts: the tribe will actively attack anyone who lands with lethal force, without exception. Even the children will attack, as most recently demonstrated. Their language is completely unknown, even to the tribes on neighboring islands, meaning no direct communication is possible, in person or from a distance. It has been made clear over multiple attempts that the tribe does not accept "gifts" as evidence of friendly intentions (indeed, it's never been clear that the tribe thinks of the objects in terms of "gifts", or are even familiar with that concept in theory).

North Sentinel is roughly the size of Manhattan; a large island in the context of the single tribe that occupies it but as far as the larger world goes, it's a tiny island with no real strategic, political, or economic value lost to anyone by leaving it off-limits. Still, you express reservations about whether enforced isolation is the best response to this dilemma. For the time being, let us ignore the matter of disease transmission/lack of immunity, or assume that could be mitigated in theory: what do you propose as a better way of dealing with this situation?
Nuke it from space, it's the only way to be sure.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 07:33 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Well let's explore that for a moment.

Here are the facts: the tribe will actively attack anyone who lands with lethal force, without exception. Even the children will attack, as most recently demonstrated. Their language is completely unknown, even to the tribes on neighboring islands, meaning no direct communication is possible, in person or from a distance. It has been made clear over multiple attempts that the tribe does not accept "gifts" as evidence of friendly intentions (indeed, it's never been clear that the tribe thinks of the objects in terms of "gifts", or are even familiar with that concept in theory).

North Sentinel is roughly the size of Manhattan; a large island in the context of the single tribe that occupies it but as far as the larger world goes, it's a tiny island with no real strategic, political, or economic value lost to anyone by leaving it off-limits. Still, you express reservations about whether enforced isolation is the best response to this dilemma. For the time being, let us ignore the matter of disease transmission/lack of immunity, or assume that could be mitigated in theory: what do you propose as a better way of dealing with this situation?
As you note, it really has no value. So why the damn need to go there?

Other than to exploit the people, that is....
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Old 22nd November 2018, 08:13 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
As you note, it really has no value. So why the damn need to go there?

Other than to exploit the people, that is....
No need to but - if there was a safe way to do it - it would be nice be able to interact with them a bit to provide them with more extensive information about the outside world so that they could make a more informed decision about whether and how they want to interact with us. Since I don't think there is a safe way, though, it's best to just leave them alone.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 08:59 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Well let's explore that for a moment.

Here are the facts: the tribe will actively attack anyone who lands with lethal force, without exception. Even the children will attack, as most recently demonstrated. Their language is completely unknown, even to the tribes on neighboring islands, meaning no direct communication is possible, in person or from a distance. It has been made clear over multiple attempts that the tribe does not accept "gifts" as evidence of friendly intentions (indeed, it's never been clear that the tribe thinks of the objects in terms of "gifts", or are even familiar with that concept in theory).

North Sentinel is roughly the size of Manhattan; a large island in the context of the single tribe that occupies it but as far as the larger world goes, it's a tiny island with no real strategic, political, or economic value lost to anyone by leaving it off-limits. Still, you express reservations about whether enforced isolation is the best response to this dilemma. For the time being, let us ignore the matter of disease transmission/lack of immunity, or assume that could be mitigated in theory: what do you propose as a better way of dealing with this situation?
Identify who owns what parcel of land. Allow that individual to sell their share if they desire.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 09:59 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Identify who owns what parcel of land. Allow that individual to sell their share if they desire.
You really think they have a concept of individual land ownership? Tell you what, why don't you go there and try to buy some land, and let us know how it goes.

Or perhaps, as usual, you're just pulling silly responses out of your butt.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 11:20 PM   #96
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There is a certain irony in a missionary getting a Darwin award
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Old 23rd November 2018, 02:14 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Identify who owns what parcel of land.
Impossible without going there and interacting with the population, which we have seen the population are perfectly happy to kill to prevent.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Allow that individual to sell their share if they desire.
I suspect this is already the case.

So you've proposed one impossible thing and one unnecessary thing.

Dave
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Old 23rd November 2018, 02:41 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
No need to but - if there was a safe way to do it - it would be nice be able to interact with them a bit to provide them with more extensive information about the outside world so that they could make a more informed decision about whether and how they want to interact with us.
That's actually why Germany bans home-schooling; or at least one current argument.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 02:44 AM   #99
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Allow me...
I don't care that trying to buy real estate on the island would be impossible due to the murderous intent of the natives, or that it would result in the death of the entire tribe by disease. Practical considerations are beneath me. Libertarianism doesn't have to work in order to work. I also don't have to support anything I say and I don't have any opinions.
Why?
Why?
How?
*insert inane suggestion here*

So, back to the thread...
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I'm expecting an incident where some busybody or group tries to send a drone to the island.
This would be... interesting. I imagine the drone would get shot down pretty quickly though, and it would certainly be against the spirit of the prohibition.

I wonder what stories they tell of the world outside the island... but we'll probably never know.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 03:26 AM   #100
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Interesting information:

Quote:
There's been a lot of talk about the missionary killed by the natives of North Sentinel Island. They're probably so aggressive because of this weirdo, Maurice Vidal Portman. So here's a big thread about this creep and some facts from my decade-long obsession with the island.
https://twitter.com/RespectableLaw/s...989632/photo/1
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Old 23rd November 2018, 06:09 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
You really think they have a concept of individual land ownership? Tell you what, why don't you go there and try to buy some land, and let us know how it goes.

Or perhaps, as usual, you're just pulling silly responses out of your butt.
Their opinion on property rights is irrelevant.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 06:21 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Allow me...
I don't care that trying to buy real estate on the island would be impossible due to the murderous intent of the natives, or that it would result in the death of the entire tribe by disease. Practical considerations are beneath me. Libertarianism doesn't have to work in order to work. I also don't have to support anything I say and I don't have any opinions.
Why?
Why?
How?
*insert inane suggestion here*

So, back to the thread...
This would be... interesting. I imagine the drone would get shot down pretty quickly though, and it would certainly be against the spirit of the prohibition.

I wonder what stories they tell of the world outside the island... but we'll probably never know.
This tribe is a libertarian dream. They are permitted the aggressive enforcement of their property rights we should all be permitted.

Plus, they are under Indian jurisdiction. The next time someone tells me the government has to get involved, I can point to India's reach over north sentinel.

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Old 23rd November 2018, 07:17 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
No need to but - if there was a safe way to do it - it would be nice be able to interact with them a bit to provide them with more extensive information about the outside world so that they could make a more informed decision about whether and how they want to interact with us. Since I don't think there is a safe way, though, it's best to just leave them alone.
At this point they would know plenty about the world. We have fancy boats and helicopters and in spite of that they don't care.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 07:54 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
These islanders seem to be racist which would make them pond scum. We are not supposed to simply ignore and avoid racists. They are to be converted to being non-racist or maybe should be imprisoned or something.

How can we just let racists be racists?
If they are willing to murder anyone regardless of race, creed, or color, can they really be said to be racist?
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Old 23rd November 2018, 09:39 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
If they are willing to murder anyone regardless of race, creed, or color, can they really be said to be racist?
Killing anyone who "isn't us" might be racism or xenophobia. But then what we commonly call racism in our world might be xenophobia or that the terms can be interchangeable.

There could be a fundamental human nature which is common to both the Sentinelese and everyone else in the world.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 09:57 AM   #106
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Certainly there is no suggestion at all that that they are racist. This is their land as they see it and they are simply protecting their borders. They just have a particularly vigorous form of entry/passport control. Which, given the history of contacts between small tribes and the larger, outside world, appears to be a good idea.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 10:00 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Certainly there is no suggestion at all that that they are racist. This is their land as they see it and they are simply protecting their borders. They just have a particularly vigorous form of entry/passport control. Which, given the history of contacts between small tribes and the larger, outside world, appears to be a good idea.
I've heard that ICE is attempting to persuade them to join as they seem to be "can do" people.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 10:04 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Killing anyone who "isn't us" might be racism or xenophobia. But then what we commonly call racism in our world might be xenophobia or that the terms can be interchangeable.

There could be a fundamental human nature which is common to both the Sentinelese and everyone else in the world.
Sure, and when you're a stone age hunter gatherer tribe that avoids contact with other humans, that works fine.
Meanwhile, the rest of us have become so interdependent and overpopulated that 'protect the tribe, kill The Other' isn't the best strategy for maintaining our current societies anymore.

But go ahead, keep trolling the straw man liberals. I'm sure you've managed to trigger someone, somewhere.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 10:19 AM   #109
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Wouldn't this missionary have had some knowledge of the risk of disease transmission? Was he just willing to run the risk of killing a bunch of the islanders in order to spread the good word?
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Old 23rd November 2018, 10:23 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
Wouldn't this missionary have had some knowledge of the risk of disease transmission? Was he just willing to run the risk of killing a bunch of the islanders in order to spread the good word?
Death from disease is nothing compared to the eternal damnation every dead member of tribe is currently enduring, allegedly.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 10:25 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It makes no difference to what rights I assign the individual.
From memory about articles about relatively uncontacted groups, there are some that do things like murder unwanted children, murder boys who dress like girls by burying them alive (I think that was a group in the Amazon?), etc. I think one person who rescued a buried child has been banned by the Brazilian government from returning to the area...

Now, should the Brazilian government - as I believe some anthropologists and politicians etc. have argued - allow Brazilian children to be murdered like this in the name of non-interference? What about someone dying from an extremely painful disease to which there's an easy cure, are observers to merely document the course of pain and suffering?

There's a huge difference between informed isolation and ignorant isolation. When there are groups within one's own country who do things that violate severe moral and legal norms, like child murder, to me that justifies intervention even at the risk of destroying their culture. In part because I'm not a moral relativist. But even if I were, I see the laws protecting people in a country should apply to all, not carve out, oh, it's politically inconvenient to protect these people, so we won't.

Now, this doesn't directly relate to an adult deliberately contacting the Andamans knowing the danger and his motivations. But it does relate to, to what extent is leaving groups alone actually unprincipled? In Canada there was a group in Bountiful B.C. that for years "married" polygamously and sexually assaulted (since too young to legally consent to marriage or sex) females, including lots of pregnancies (so no lack of proof...). But for years, decades even, the BC government did nothing. That was an extreme religious group, but it's the same kind of thinking, ignore what's going on in the name of not interfering with religion or culture. In other contexts I've read about abused women in Indigenous native communities not being adequately protected, either or both because authorities don't adequately protect them, or because the focus is on not separating the assaulter from their home and group.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 10:31 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
As you note, it really has no value. So why the damn need to go there?

Other than to exploit the people, that is....
While modern society does have a track record of exploitation and bad actions, there may be rational/moral reasons to want to interact with them.

Not all of modern society is a cesspool of depravity and exploitation. Interactions with the outside world might provide them with assistance (e.g. medical care, disaster recovery) when needed.

Plus, we don't really know the structure of their society, and its possible that some individuals on the island are treated poorer than others and would want to leave if given the chance. (I have no reason to think that's the case, but without finding out more about them we can't know.)

Anthropologists may also find it useful (in an academic sense) to learn more about a tribe that has been pretty uncontaminated from outside influences.

That said, whatever benefits that could be provided by interacting with them are probably not worth the risk (potential harm to the natives from diseases or commercial exploitation; risk of death to westerners making contact.)
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Old 23rd November 2018, 10:40 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
That's actually why Germany bans home-schooling; or at least one current argument.
And why Starfleet has a Prime Directive.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Here are the facts: the tribe will actively attack anyone who lands with lethal force, without exception. Even the children will attack, as most recently demonstrated.
That's what happens when the Chief pushes his "Make Andamans Great Again!" agenda.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 10:48 AM   #114
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We know next to nothing about this island and its people. It may not be a single unified tribe everywhere on that island. There could be something like a "North Sentinelese" and a "South Sentinelese" who are at perpetual brutal warfare with each other.

The arrows might not simply be for hunting animals for food. They could also be for human offensive and defense happening on Sentinel Island.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 10:56 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
Wouldn't this missionary have had some knowledge of the risk of disease transmission? Was he just willing to run the risk of killing a bunch of the islanders in order to spread the good word?
One person who is up on vaccines does not carry much risk of disease transmission.

The risk of course will increase if more people visit, and if those visits are uncontrolled, if people who are not immunized and not getting regular medical care get in.

But unless he has measles when he is went to the island, he won't give it to them. Unless he has diphtheria when he visited, he won't pass that on either, and so on with all the other pathogens.

I mean, he might have been ill with something when they killed him, but probably not.

Last edited by crescent; 23rd November 2018 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 10:57 AM   #116
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We gain nothing by forcing contact with them, except puncture wounds. It's not like Japan where we knew what riches and history (and the Japanese had been making contact themselves throughout history, unlike these folk) where some visitors had made it in and the language was at least somewhat known. They've had a couple points of contact with their own people, have decided they have nothing to gain from us, and enforce that at every opportunity. We will lose nothing by respecting their wishes and leaving them the **** alone. Perhaps, if we stop buzzing them and throwing fish at children, they may even forget we exist and contact can be made.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 11:07 AM   #117
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Their lethal defense of the shoreline might have foundations in ancient times when people from other islands (possibly nearby) arrived as lethal invaders. They kill literally anybody because of what the ancient Andamanese did to them.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 11:09 AM   #118
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Filling the planes and drones with spears and arrows probably doesn't have as deep of roots in history as doing the same to people. Even if, what kind of argument is that for forcing contact? "we must civilise you"?
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Old 23rd November 2018, 11:10 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I mean, he might have been ill with something when they killed him, but probably not.
He did seem to end up with a serious case of arrows.
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Old 23rd November 2018, 11:12 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Filling the planes and drones with spears and arrows probably doesn't have as deep of roots in history as doing the same to people. Even if, what kind of argument is that for forcing contact? "we must civilise you"?
To bring them all the great things society can offer. Antibiotics, farming, plumbing, massive wealth inequality, purchased politicians, gated communities. That sort of thing.
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