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Old 24th November 2018, 12:59 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
A critical survival skill is the ability to take a hint. If a bunch of people have a history of murdering everyone who shows up uninvited that is a hint that the very wisest might consider indicating a possible suggestion of perhaps not receiving a thoroughly pleasant welcome there.
I'd bet some folks in the deep south would agree fully with that statement.
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:02 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
He shouldn't have been there in the first place. The Indian government has declared these islands off limits as the Sentinels have quite clearly indicated that they did not need any interference. There are laws that declare them a protected tribe and and prevents interference from tourists and people from the mainland. He bribed fisherment to take him there. Frankly he got what he deserved.
Lesson being,if you really don't like outsiders is okay to kill them on sight.
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:06 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Who said they claim sovereignty?
India does
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:12 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Who said they claim sovereignty?
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
India does
Um.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I would have to see that argument from an expert in Indian law.
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:20 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is weird that they claim sovereignty.
Claiming sovereignty would be a neat trick, since they can't be meaningfully communicated with.

The Indian government has chosen to treat them as a sort of independent protectorate.
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:26 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Um.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sentinel_Island

Quote:
Nominally, the island belongs to the South Andaman administrative district, part of the Indian union territory of Andaman and Nicobar Islands.[11] In practice, Indian authorities recognise the islanders' desire to be left alone and restrict their role to remote monitoring; they do not prosecute them for killing non-Sentinelese people.[12][13] The island is in effect a sovereign area under Indian protection.
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:28 PM   #167
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Presumably you are able to understand the distinction between a choice made by India versus the islanders "declaring sovereignty".
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:32 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Claiming sovereignty would be a neat trick, since they can't be meaningfully communicated with.

The Indian government has chosen to treat them as a sort of independent protectorate.
India claims sovereignty of the island to the world.
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:33 PM   #169
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As a missionary, why would you go to such a low-population area to gain converts? Unless you're just trying to show your willingness to go into the lion's den for Christ, in other words..ego. He could have stayed in the west and had access to a lot more potential converts. And anyway, if there is anyone that would get a free pass from the big guy/gal upstairs it would have to be isolated tribes no? Assuming God isn't a complete dick...
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:33 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Presumably you are able to understand the distinction between a choice made by India versus the islanders "declaring sovereignty".
I didn't say the tribe claimed sovereignty. I said they (India) did.
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:34 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by ugot2bekidding View Post
As a missionary, why would you go to such a low-population area to gain converts? Unless you're just trying to show your willingness to go into the lion's den for Christ, in other words..ego. He could have stayed in the west and had access to a lot more potential converts. And anyway, if there is anyone that would get a free pass from the big guy/gal upstairs it would have to be isolated tribes no? Assuming God isn't a complete dick...
They receive no pass in the doctrine.
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:42 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And did they ever agree to be part of India? I'd want to see the sealed and witnessed documents in which they signed over their sovereignty to India before I accept they should be subject to Indian laws.
Did the Welsh ever agree to be part of the UK?
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:48 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I didn't say the tribe claimed sovereignty. I said they (India) did.
I'd have to think the simple act of killing any and all that attempt to set foot on the island could be construed as a sort of non-verbal 'declaration of sovereignty' in its own right.
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:48 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by ugot2bekidding View Post
As a missionary, why would you go to such a low-population area to gain converts? Unless you're just trying to show your willingness to go into the lion's den for Christ, in other words..ego. He could have stayed in the west and had access to a lot more potential converts. And anyway, if there is anyone that would get a free pass from the big guy/gal upstairs it would have to be isolated tribes no? Assuming God isn't a complete dick...
The same reason a couple of Jesuit priests ('Silence' - lead star: Andrew Garfield) went to Japan to try to convert them.

Quote:
In the 17th century, two Portuguese Jesuit priests travel to Japan in an attempt to locate their mentor, who is rumored to have committed apostasy, and to propagate Catholicism.
IMDb
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:50 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by ugot2bekidding View Post
As a missionary, why would you go to such a low-population area to gain converts? Unless you're just trying to show your willingness to go into the lion's den for Christ, in other words..ego. He could have stayed in the west and had access to a lot more potential converts. And anyway, if there is anyone that would get a free pass from the big guy/gal upstairs it would have to be isolated tribes no? Assuming God isn't a complete dick...
It's virtue-signalling
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:54 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I didn't say the tribe claimed sovereignty. I said they (India) did.
Of course India claims sovereignty; they became an independent republic with the completion of their constitution in 1950.
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:56 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The same reason a couple of Jesuit priests ('Silence' - lead star: Andrew Garfield) went to Japan to try to convert them.
I'm sure there were ulterior motives, such as establishing trade routes etc. Also, japan has more than a thousand people, so that's still better, from a missionary perspective, than going to convert an isolated tribe.
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:58 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Did the Welsh ever agree to be part of the UK?
If the Welsh all ran around naked, killing anyone who set foot across the border I think you'll find UK law wouldn't be enforced much in Wales either.
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Old 24th November 2018, 01:59 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
It's virtue-signalling
When the crusaders from the eleventh century onwards spread throughout Europe they were given a mandate to convert the pagans wherever they found them.

They were made 'Knights of the Sword' and given a 'Letter of Salvation' and rust service ('rust' = equestrian).

So, in other words, it was seen as a Christian obligation to try to 'save' people.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe only those in the priesthood will be among the 144K saved, come Judgement Day, and in order to be one of the chosen, you have to have 'saved' people's souls.

I would guess the dead missionary in the Andamans had that motive.

As a martyr, he gets to lie beneath the altar in heaven with all the other martyrs (people who died for their faith) and, come the New Jerusalem, they will rise up in white robes and go marching into heaven as 'saints'.
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Old 24th November 2018, 02:02 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
If the Welsh all ran around naked, killing anyone who set foot across the border I think you'll find UK law wouldn't be enforced much in Wales either.
And that is why UK law is not enforced in New Jersey.
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Old 24th November 2018, 02:09 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I'd have to think the simple act of killing any and all that attempt to set foot on the island could be construed as a sort of non-verbal 'declaration of sovereignty' in its own right.
I don't think we can say that, really. The single actually-valid point Bob has made in this thread (I think it was Bob; I could be mistaken) is that it's not known whether the islanders that defend the beach where landings are most common are representative of the entire Sentinelese population, their wishes, motives, or disposition to visitors. As big as the island is from a ground-level (sea-level?) observer's perspective, it seems to be the case that landings by outsiders can only ever be made at a few specific points due to reefs that surround most of it leaving few safe approaches for watercraft, and it may just happen that a particularly aggressive family or village guards those points.

But the problem of disease transmission remains. The whole reason the government stopped the attempted visits in the 90's is because they directly observed a nearby, more hospitable island tribe they were visiting simultaneously being decimated by diseases brought by the visiting scientists and officials.
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Old 24th November 2018, 02:33 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by ugot2bekidding View Post
As a missionary, why would you go to such a low-population area to gain converts? Unless you're just trying to show your willingness to go into the lion's den for Christ, in other words..ego. He could have stayed in the west and had access to a lot more potential converts. And anyway, if there is anyone that would get a free pass from the big guy/gal upstairs it would have to be isolated tribes no? Assuming God isn't a complete dick...
He read the story of St. Sebastian but only got half-way through.
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Old 24th November 2018, 02:46 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
He read the story of St. Sebastian but only got half-way through.
The first martyr was Stephen.
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Old 24th November 2018, 03:17 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The first martyr was Stephen.
I think he was referring to the legend of St Sebastian getting shot full of arrows. Despite the popularity of the imagery in art, St Sebastian survived that incident; he was later killed by being bludgeoned to death for smarting off to Diocletian.
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Old 24th November 2018, 04:06 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by ugot2bekidding View Post
As a missionary, why would you go to such a low-population area to gain converts? Unless you're just trying to show your willingness to go into the lion's den for Christ, in other words..ego. He could have stayed in the west and had access to a lot more potential converts. And anyway, if there is anyone that would get a free pass from the big guy/gal upstairs it would have to be isolated tribes no? Assuming God isn't a complete dick...
Based on what I've read of his background, I get the impression that the danger/adventure element was a big part of it to him. He also seemed concerned that these folks had never even had the opportunity to hear the message of Christianity unlike other folks who'd simply rejected it. If I was a religious man, I might speculate that the arrow hitting the bible during his first invasion might have been a hint from the Big Guy that this wasn't going to go well.
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Old 24th November 2018, 04:31 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think he was referring to the legend of St Sebastian getting shot full of arrows. Despite the popularity of the imagery in art, St Sebastian survived that incident; he was later killed by being bludgeoned to death for smarting off to Diocletian.
If the Andaman Sentenalise have crossbows, then maybe they are not as primitive as believed.

Or did the journalists mean 'spears' (lances) when they said 'arrows'? An arrow is fletched, so that would take some skill.
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Old 24th November 2018, 04:43 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
India does
Where? Can you point to the documents?
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Old 24th November 2018, 04:44 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Did the Welsh ever agree to be part of the UK?
Did the rabbit bite the tortoise?
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Old 24th November 2018, 04:49 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Where? Can you point to the documents?
I cited Wikipedia above. If that isnt sufficient, let me know and i will probably just ignore that reply.
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Old 24th November 2018, 04:58 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I cited Wikipedia above. If that isnt sufficient, let me know and i will probably just ignore that reply.
Are you an expert in matters of the Sentinelese constitution or legal system?
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Old 24th November 2018, 05:05 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If the Andaman Sentenalise have crossbows, then maybe they are not as primitive as believed.

Or did the journalists mean 'spears' (lances) when they said 'arrows'? An arrow is fletched, so that would take some skill.
Accounts seem to describe the traditional bow and arrow, not a crossbow. They also have spears.

One old account speaks of a youngster(s) shooting an arrow without an attached point tip. This is much less lethal or not at all. It could still be used successfully on a variety of small animals.
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Old 24th November 2018, 05:21 PM   #192
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Arrows aren't always fletched. New Guinea highlanders use unfletched shafts at times.

I rather think that there are sources on Andamanese weapons.

And on their unpleasant folkways; I know because I've read them.

I'm sorry that Jesus's little helper got killed by those ignoble savages. He didn't deserve that. A year or two in the hands of the Indian police maybe? No, he didn't deserve that either. But a warning, a fine, and a one-way ticket home? Quite proper.

The Sentinelese are hardly the first, or probably the last, isolates who can't think of anything else to do w/ an outsider than kill him. I don't wish them well, or even ill. Oblivion would probably be best.
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Old 24th November 2018, 05:42 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Did the Welsh ever agree to be part of the UK?
No more than Northumbria did. Wales was conquered, and made part of the Kingdom of England. Recognition of Wales as a country distinct from England has come subsequent to the 1707 Act of Union between the Kingdom of England, including Wales, and Scotland.

What we know as Wales now was never actually under the rule of any unitary authority, of course. Many Lords and Princes in Wales expressly accepted the King of England as overlord, and many did not.
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Old 24th November 2018, 06:20 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Are you an expert in matters of the Sentinelese constitution or legal system?
No. That is why I'm not generating my own, novel conclusions on matters of law.
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Old 24th November 2018, 08:21 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think he was referring to the legend of St Sebastian getting shot full of arrows. Despite the popularity of the imagery in art, St Sebastian survived that incident; he was later killed by being bludgeoned to death for smarting off to Diocletian.
Oh thank gawd somebody got the reference. I thought the joke would be too obscure, even for this crowd.
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Old 24th November 2018, 08:32 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If the Andaman Sentenalise have crossbows, then maybe they are not as primitive as believed.

Or did the journalists mean 'spears' (lances) when they said 'arrows'? An arrow is fletched, so that would take some skill.
I'm sure that's exactly what was going through the minds of St. Sebastian and our intrepid martyr. "Hey, that's some impressive fletching on those arrows."
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Old 24th November 2018, 08:46 PM   #197
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So, maybe this should go to the religion section but it seems to me that if you believe the Christian thing, going as a missionary to these people is really a dick move. As far as I remember from Catholic education, if you've never heard about how Jesus had his afternoon of gay S&M and was now everyone's savior you got a pass. If you did hear the story and rejected it, you were royally ******, like lake of fire for eternity and such.

So, let's say our boy, the dead one, sucked as a missionary. He got there, he told the story of Jesus having gay S&M sex with some Romans on a Friday afternoon and now they had to accept him as their savior. If the locals herd it, understood it and then said, that's ****** stupid go away, our missionary just damned them to Hell. These people were fine without knowing about Jesus and the gay S&M. If you really cared about the natives, why not leave them alone instead of risking them not believing you?
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Old 24th November 2018, 08:59 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
So, maybe this should go to the religion section but it seems to me that if you believe the Christian thing, going as a missionary to these people is really a dick move. As far as I remember from Catholic education, if you've never heard about how Jesus had his afternoon of gay S&M and was now everyone's savior you got a pass. If you did hear the story and rejected it, you were royally ******, like lake of fire for eternity and such.

So, let's say our boy, the dead one, sucked as a missionary. He got there, he told the story of Jesus having gay S&M sex with some Romans on a Friday afternoon and now they had to accept him as their savior. If the locals herd it, understood it and then said, that's ****** stupid go away, our missionary just damned them to Hell. These people were fine without knowing about Jesus and the gay S&M. If you really cared about the natives, why not leave them alone instead of risking them not believing you?
Are you talking about Limbo or something?
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Old 24th November 2018, 09:10 PM   #199
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Okay Bob I have zero faith any of this is going to make it through your "cause purity" mental force field... but in the real world not every battle is worth having and real humans making real decisions with real human brains have to sometimes weight the pros and cons of actual actions in the actual real world on a level beyond "Fetishistic Purity to Bob's Arbitrarily Categorized Ways of Thinking" and making sure they are the purest of the pure (Insert philosophical, social, or political label here) isn't always the only thing that matters

This is a tiny (less then 400), incredibly isolated tribe that probably wouldn't survive sustained contact with the outside world. Even a moral victory would be a Pyrrhic one.

Yes, as I said back on page one of a this thread, back when it was fresh faced and youthful and as yet untainted by your Bobbing, having to just leave them to their devices does sort of suck and is a less than ideal solution but those happen in that pesky "real world" you never deign to factor into your insane ramblings.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 24th November 2018 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 24th November 2018, 09:26 PM   #200
Civet
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
So, maybe this should go to the religion section but it seems to me that if you believe the Christian thing, going as a missionary to these people is really a dick move. As far as I remember from Catholic education, if you've never heard about how Jesus had his afternoon of gay S&M and was now everyone's savior you got a pass. If you did hear the story and rejected it, you were royally ******, like lake of fire for eternity and such.

So, let's say our boy, the dead one, sucked as a missionary. He got there, he told the story of Jesus having gay S&M sex with some Romans on a Friday afternoon and now they had to accept him as their savior. If the locals herd it, understood it and then said, that's ****** stupid go away, our missionary just damned them to Hell. These people were fine without knowing about Jesus and the gay S&M. If you really cared about the natives, why not leave them alone instead of risking them not believing you?
I haven't seen a specific reference to his denomination, but I'd wager that he was some flavor of evangelical (I'm basing that on the man's quotes and his educational background) and likely wouldn't have subscribed to the Catholic idea about limbo for those ignorant of the gospel.
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