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Old 25th November 2018, 03:36 PM   #241
Skeptical Greg
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If you are unaware that you are living in uneducated squalor without modern medicine, what right does anyone have to show you just how deprived you are, and maybe kill you in the process?

It has nothing to do with admiring the way they live.

Why don't you demand the Indian government bring all the millions of Indians, who are aware they are in poverty, up to a decent ( by your reckoning ) standard of living, before you demand they show a handful of people the wonderful life they are missing out on.
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Old 25th November 2018, 03:41 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
In other words, he did it for selfish reasons.
OTOH you could see him as a kind man who saw the essential humanity in these so-called untouchables. He saw them as fellow humans and extended the hand of friendship to bring them the good news one or two f them may have been thirsting for.

Being 'uncontacted' doesn't make them exempt from the crime of murder. Hopefully, some good will come out of the slaying. A sense of remorse and regret might cross the mind of some members of the tribe who might be moved to consider the enormity of what they did and offer to make amends.
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Old 25th November 2018, 03:42 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
The world you want to live in would be a nightmare.
I agree
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Old 25th November 2018, 03:44 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Like that has always worked out so well in the past..



What about leaving people to enjoy life as they know it?
Well those members of the tribe who have to go through child birth or suffer agonising illnesses or conditions such as diabetes or asthma might be only too grateful to have access to medical care.

Nobody is asking them to join FB or instagram or to start tweeting.
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Old 25th November 2018, 03:44 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OTOH you could see him as a kind man who saw the essential humanity in these so-called untouchables. He saw them as fellow humans and extended the hand of friendship to bring them the good news one or two f them may have been thirsting for.

Being 'uncontacted' doesn't make them exempt from the crime of murder. Hopefully, some good will come out of the slaying. A sense of remorse and regret might cross the mind of some members of the tribe who might be moved to consider the enormity of what they did and offer to make amends.
Looked like self defense to me
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Old 25th November 2018, 03:47 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Looked like self defense to me
No doubt they acted from fear. That doesn't make it OK, even if they are the last of the Mohican-equivalents.
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Old 25th November 2018, 03:55 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Well those members of the tribe who have to go through child birth or suffer agonising illnesses or conditions such as diabetes or asthma might be only too grateful to have access to medical care.
That may well be true. The problem is that you can't get there from here, not in a way that actually helps.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No doubt they acted from fear. That doesn't make it OK, even if they are the last of the Mohican-equivalents.
But what can you do with such a judgment? You can't punish them without likely inflicting far more harm than they are guilty of.
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Old 25th November 2018, 04:17 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If we merge this thread with the female Santa one, we are getting soooooo close to my kink
I really don't want to know. My only knowledge of this comes from the window displays of the sex shops in German airports.
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Old 25th November 2018, 04:19 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OTOH you could see him as a kind man who saw the essential humanity in these so-called untouchables. He saw them as fellow humans and extended the hand of friendship to bring them the good news one or two f them may have been thirsting for.

Being 'uncontacted' doesn't make them exempt from the crime of murder. Hopefully, some good will come out of the slaying. A sense of remorse and regret might cross the mind of some members of the tribe who might be moved to consider the enormity of what they did and offer to make amends.
On the first day when they shot the **** out of him with a bunch of ******* arrows, you'd think he'd have take the hint as to what he could do with his hand of friendship. It's not like they just up and whacked him on the first day. They only put him down for a dirt nap when he kept coming back. Dumb **** could clearly not take the hint.
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Old 25th November 2018, 05:09 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OTOH you could see him as a kind man who saw the essential humanity in these so-called untouchables.
What kind of sick person are you?

Quote:
He saw them as fellow humans and extended the hand of friendship to bring them the good news one or two f them may have been thirsting for.
Oh, that kind of sick person. he saw them as nothing more than an opportunity. He was a sick person trying to take advantage of people he saw as beneath him.

Quote:
Being 'uncontacted' doesn't make them exempt from the crime of murder. Hopefully, some good will come out of the slaying. A sense of remorse and regret might cross the mind of some members of the tribe who might be moved to consider the enormity of what they did and offer to make amends.
Being uncontacted doesn't make them untouchables. I think the killing of this idiot falls outside the definition of murder and into the realm of justifiable homicide. How'd the "good news" help the idiot who thought a skydaddy would stop a bunch of arrows from killing him?

I doubt any of these people will feel any regret over this. they have killed outsiders before and from a survival perspective they are 100% right in doing so. The choice is one dead idiot or a few hundred dead tribe members. Even from a Western ethics perspective his death is morally justified based on that ratio alone.
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Old 25th November 2018, 06:26 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OTOH you could see him as a kind man who saw the essential humanity in these so-called untouchables. He saw them as fellow humans and extended the hand of friendship to bring them the good news one or two f them may have been thirsting for.

Being 'uncontacted' doesn't make them exempt from the crime of murder. Hopefully, some good will come out of the slaying. A sense of remorse and regret might cross the mind of some members of the tribe who might be moved to consider the enormity of what they did and offer to make amends.
You post some nonsense, Vixen, but this may be my all-time favorite. You are applying western standards of morality and justice and have no idea whether they subscribe to them in the first place. For all you know, they may be giving the hottest babe in the village to the archer who shot the fatal error for service above and beyond the call of duty in "keeping our borders safe".

You have no idea of their culture and standards. They may be having a great huge feast to celebrate the killing. They may have no concept of "murder" as you consider it. I know a lot of westerners who, had this happened in their country, would excuse it as "border guards doing their job". Do you really think the East German soldiers who shot their fellow East Germans for trying to get over or through the wall lost a lot of sleep? Do you think Donald Trump (or his supporters) are going to give a rat's ass if some of those "invaders" get killed at the border this week?

You don't know squat about them and are applying 17th century catechism to them, assuming some sort of a priori set of moral standards that every culture on earth must "logically" live by.

Perhaps they're as evangelistic as the fool who tried to invade and they're celebrating having sent him on to a better life in the arms of Kaminono their deity in charge of bringing lost souls to the bosom of The Great Coconut. This was their first opportunity in decades to "convert-by-death" and they're delighted.

You just don't know and your projections stink of White Man's Burden.
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Old 25th November 2018, 09:38 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OTOH you could see him as a kind man who saw the essential humanity in these so-called untouchables. He saw them as fellow humans and extended the hand of friendship to bring them the good news one or two f them may have been thirsting for.

Being 'uncontacted' doesn't make them exempt from the crime of murder. Hopefully, some good will come out of the slaying. A sense of remorse and regret might cross the mind of some members of the tribe who might be moved to consider the enormity of what they did and offer to make amends.

Imagining stuff is fun, isn't it?

I like to imagine the islanders being the actual chosen people of the actual sole creator god, of which the rest of the world knows nothing. The islanders have isolated themselves for millennia because only they have the strength to bear the burden of knowing how terrible, frightening, and revolting the true god of the universe is. They knew if the missionary learned the truth, he would either kill himself, or be unable to resist passing the dread revelation to the world, which could only result in all of humanity outside their island consuming itself in flames of madness and despair. As tempted as they must have been to share their burden with him, they killed him instead as an act of utmost mercy.
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Old 25th November 2018, 10:31 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Perhaps they're as evangelistic as the fool who tried to invade and they're celebrating having sent him on to a better life in the arms of Kaminono their deity in charge of bringing lost souls to the bosom of The Great Coconut.
That's really not what evangelism means. They might be religiously fanatic, but they definitely aren't evangelical. That's incompatible with isolationism by definition.
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Old 25th November 2018, 10:39 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Imagining stuff is fun, isn't it?

I like to imagine the islanders being the actual chosen people of the actual sole creator god, of which the rest of the world knows nothing. The islanders have isolated themselves for millennia because only they have the strength to bear the burden of knowing how terrible, frightening, and revolting the true god of the universe is. They knew if the missionary learned the truth, he would either kill himself, or be unable to resist passing the dread revelation to the world, which could only result in all of humanity outside their island consuming itself in flames of madness and despair. As tempted as they must have been to share their burden with him, they killed him instead as an act of utmost mercy.
I can't remember the name of the story or the author, but there was a sci fi short story where an alien (race A) recounts to a human priest about some other aliens (race B) that dedicated itself to discovering god. One day race B stopped communicating with everyone else, and when race A went to investigate, they discovered the entire race B had committed suicide. So race A had investigators try to figure out what happened. Every investigator they sent also ended up committing suicide. So all knowledge of what race B had discovered and what drove them to suicide was destroyed. It is unknown if they killed themselves in order to access heaven, because they discovered some unbearable cosmic horror, or what.

If I recall correctly, the narrator (the human priest) is unsure if the story is even true, or if the alien just told the priest that so the priest wouldn't bug him about religion.
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Old 25th November 2018, 10:42 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Being uncontacted doesn't make them untouchables.
Correct. The Indian prohibition on contact is what makes them untouchables, and keeps them uncontacted. Probably for the best, though.
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Old 25th November 2018, 11:33 PM   #256
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The point of being Untouchable is that you're at the very bottom of society, able to see (and even interacting with) every other strata with constant reminders that they're so above you that they refuse to soil themselves by mere physical contact. The Andaman tribe are their own society and are not part of Indian society in the slightest.
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Old 26th November 2018, 12:21 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post

You have no idea of their culture and standards. They may be having a great huge feast to celebrate the killing.
"Hey, !Nxao! You want a thigh or a leg?"
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Old 26th November 2018, 12:54 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OTOH you could see him as a kind man who saw the essential humanity in these so-called untouchables. He saw them as fellow humans and extended the hand of friendship to bring them the good news one or two f them may have been thirsting for.

Being 'uncontacted' doesn't make them exempt from the crime of murder. Hopefully, some good will come out of the slaying. A sense of remorse and regret might cross the mind of some members of the tribe who might be moved to consider the enormity of what they did and offer to make amends.
Murder is legal term and often a defence against murder is when you kill someone who is invading your home. We often call that manslaughter or war.
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Old 26th November 2018, 02:25 AM   #259
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"OTOH you could see him as a kind man who saw the essential humanity in these so-called untouchables. He saw them as fellow humans and extended the hand of friendship to bring them the good news one or two f them may have been thirsting"

Some one who places an entire group at risk of death because he thinks he knows what is best for them is not being kind.

Please do not use the term "untouchable" because it it brings with it certain assumptions. To be clear they are not related to the Dalit or other similar groups that were once called untouchables.

Despite the fact that no one understands their language, even members of other Andamanese groups, the Sentinelese have made it abundantly clear that they do not wish contact with the outside world.

They have survived for tens of thousands of years on their own. As best we know, they haven't overpopulated their island,decimated the sea life near them, spread disease to others, or ventured beyond their coral reef to attack neighboring islands. They seem to be doing okay on their own .

By contrast the other indigenous groups that did have contact with outsiders, the Onge, the Jarawa, and the Great Andamanese, are almost all gone.

Chau ignored government policies, the literature that notes the islanders desire to be left alone, the fact that other local groups have no known contacts with them, and the reports of British colonials on their vulnerability to disease ( several Sentinelese were kidnapped from the island in the 1800s and brought to Port Blair, the elders in the group rapidly sickened and died, so they returned the children - a grand gesture that may have wiped out half the tribe). Once on the island, Chau ignored three warnings ( shooting at him, chasing him, and destroying his kayak) and he still returned.

Given his willful desire to ignore all warnings and everything ever written about them , did the Sentinelese commit murder or did John Chau essentially commit suicide?
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Old 26th November 2018, 03:22 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by chuff8xt View Post
...snip...

Given his willful desire to ignore all warnings and everything ever written about them , did the Sentinelese commit murder or did John Chau essentially commit suicide?
And let's not forget his god apparently miraculously saved him on his first attempt at contact, not surprised that when he tried again his god decided that nothing was going to get through to him, apart from arrows.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:04 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I can't remember the name of the story or the author, but there was a sci fi short story where an alien (race A) recounts to a human priest about some other aliens (race B) that dedicated itself to discovering god [...]
Pretty sure that's one of Larry Niven's Draco Tavern short stories, and is in the collection Convergent Series. I'll look it up when I've got my copy within arm's reach.

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Old 26th November 2018, 04:07 AM   #262
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I don't know if this has already been posted. Here is an article about one of the very few people who has actually had direct contact with the tribe:
http://www.probashionline.com/madhum...jeIBhqtinwudMs
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:41 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by chuff8xt View Post
Given his willful desire to ignore all warnings and everything ever written about them , did the Sentinelese commit murder or did John Chau essentially commit suicide?
Considering he was trying to bring the word of God to these people, he probably viewed being killed as a form of martyrdom.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:19 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Pretty sure that's one of Larry Niven's Draco Tavern short stories, and is in the collection Convergent Series. I'll look it up when I've got my copy within arm's reach.

Dave
Sounds right, I think a tavern was involved.
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Old 26th November 2018, 08:19 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Pretty sure that's one of Larry Niven's Draco Tavern short stories, and is in the collection Convergent Series. I'll look it up when I've got my copy within arm's reach.

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Old 26th November 2018, 02:17 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
On the first day when they shot the **** out of him with a bunch of ******* arrows, you'd think he'd have take the hint as to what he could do with his hand of friendship. It's not like they just up and whacked him on the first day. They only put him down for a dirt nap when he kept coming back. Dumb **** could clearly not take the hint.
Pretty sure I've heard really racist peyote say that about folks of the wrong color in the wrong neighborhood.
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Old 26th November 2018, 02:19 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Pretty sure I've heard really racist peyote say that about folks of the wrong color in the wrong neighborhood.
Yeah, those racist hallucinogenic buttons are unbearable
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Old 26th November 2018, 03:13 PM   #268
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Auto-correct can be entertaining at times...
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Old 26th November 2018, 03:30 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Auto-correct can be entertaining at times...
Mine learns to correct to frequently typed words. It can be a real SearchForSantaPorn
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:52 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Pretty sure I've heard really racist peyote say that about folks of the wrong color in the wrong neighborhood.



Which has nothing to do with anything, although this is ISF so there must be racism in this somewhere.

Christianity has done so much good for the world - what with the wars, archaic laws, oppression 'n such, why wouldn't they want it there?

Ask the Native Americans how much they appreciate Father Serra for teaching them about Gawd and building all of those cool missions. Great guy!

These people sound smarter than most for wanting this crap away from them. It's funny how people here are arguing that they need modern medicine and all that - they may be just fine as they are. Leave them alone geez.

This guy was an arrogant ass. He didn't want to help anyone, he wanted to spread the word of his Gawd, and by force it would seem. We are all better off without people like him.

At least Jehovah's Witnesses leave after you tell them you are not interested.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:54 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
You post some nonsense, Vixen, but this may be my all-time favorite. You are applying western standards of morality and justice and have no idea whether they subscribe to them in the first place. For all you know, they may be giving the hottest babe in the village to the archer who shot the fatal error for service above and beyond the call of duty in "keeping our borders safe".

You have no idea of their culture and standards. They may be having a great huge feast to celebrate the killing. They may have no concept of "murder" as you consider it. I know a lot of westerners who, had this happened in their country, would excuse it as "border guards doing their job". Do you really think the East German soldiers who shot their fellow East Germans for trying to get over or through the wall lost a lot of sleep? Do you think Donald Trump (or his supporters) are going to give a rat's ass if some of those "invaders" get killed at the border this week?

You don't know squat about them and are applying 17th century catechism to them, assuming some sort of a priori set of moral standards that every culture on earth must "logically" live by.

Perhaps they're as evangelistic as the fool who tried to invade and they're celebrating having sent him on to a better life in the arms of Kaminono their deity in charge of bringing lost souls to the bosom of The Great Coconut. This was their first opportunity in decades to "convert-by-death" and they're delighted.

You just don't know and your projections stink of White Man's Burden.

Human beings are wired to understand the concept of good and evil (i.e., they have freedom to choose either good or evil, and know the difference).

You are the one patronising the Sentinelise by claiming they are less than human, and understand not that killing your fellow man is wrong.

The missionary went in peace and had no weapons.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:56 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Murder is legal term and often a defence against murder is when you kill someone who is invading your home. We often call that manslaughter or war.
It is not just a legal term. It is also a moral term.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:00 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by chuff8xt View Post
"OTOH you could see him as a kind man who saw the essential humanity in these so-called untouchables. He saw them as fellow humans and extended the hand of friendship to bring them the good news one or two f them may have been thirsting"

Some one who places an entire group at risk of death because he thinks he knows what is best for them is not being kind.

Please do not use the term "untouchable" because it it brings with it certain assumptions. To be clear they are not related to the Dalit or other similar groups that were once called untouchables.

Despite the fact that no one understands their language, even members of other Andamanese groups, the Sentinelese have made it abundantly clear that they do not wish contact with the outside world.

They have survived for tens of thousands of years on their own. As best we know, they haven't overpopulated their island,decimated the sea life near them, spread disease to others, or ventured beyond their coral reef to attack neighboring islands. They seem to be doing okay on their own .

By contrast the other indigenous groups that did have contact with outsiders, the Onge, the Jarawa, and the Great Andamanese, are almost all gone.

Chau ignored government policies, the literature that notes the islanders desire to be left alone, the fact that other local groups have no known contacts with them, and the reports of British colonials on their vulnerability to disease ( several Sentinelese were kidnapped from the island in the 1800s and brought to Port Blair, the elders in the group rapidly sickened and died, so they returned the children - a grand gesture that may have wiped out half the tribe). Once on the island, Chau ignored three warnings ( shooting at him, chasing him, and destroying his kayak) and he still returned.

Given his willful desire to ignore all warnings and everything ever written about them , did the Sentinelese commit murder or did John Chau essentially commit suicide?

This is romantic Robinson Crusoe claptrap. I am highly sceptical they have lived on their island 'untouched for 60,000 years'. European explorers of C14-C19 had no hesitation in shooting any natives they came across on remote islands.

Maybe they never penetrated the dense Amazon jungles to reach the South American isolated tribes, but an island off the coast of India..?
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:22 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Maybe they never penetrated the dense Amazon jungles to reach the South American isolated tribes, but an island off the coast of India..?
Well, it is off the coast of India, but about 1,000 miles off the coast, so it's not like it was just a short hop or anything.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:25 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is romantic Robinson Crusoe claptrap. I am highly sceptical they have lived on their island 'untouched for 60,000 years'. European explorers of C14-C19 had no hesitation in shooting any natives they came across on remote islands.

Maybe they never penetrated the dense Amazon jungles to reach the South American isolated tribes, but an island off the coast of India..?
Its about 1000 miles off the coast of India and difficult to land boats at due to all the rocks and coral reefs around it. There are only a few places where you can get near the island which I guess makes it easier for the natives to defend from invaders.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:26 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Well, it is off the coast of India, but about 1,000 miles off the coast, so it's not like it was just a short hop or anything.
Peasant fishermen have no problem rowing there in their little boats.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:27 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Its about 1000 miles off the coast of India and difficult to land boats at due to all the rocks and coral reefs around it. There are only a few places where you can get near the island which I guess makes it easier for the natives to defend from invaders.
The Sentinelese are said to have arrived from Africa 60K years ago, so clearly they had no problem in landing safely.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:50 PM   #278
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Must of been one of those few places where it is possible to get near the island..

You think?

Not to mention, there was no one there, to contest a landing at that time...
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:52 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Sentinelese are said to have arrived from Africa 60K years ago, so clearly they had no problem in landing safely.

How many died on the way?
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:54 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is not just a legal term. It is also a moral term.
And you get that from where?

The Christian Bible? Read Joshua lately?
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