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Old 26th November 2018, 01:11 AM   #121
Darat
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
You realize 'Claus' is a male name ? Based on greek bishop ? Even if he were 100% made up, 'Father Christmas' can't be 'anyone'. Similar to as why Virgin Marry probably is supposed to be a woman.
Can he be played by a woman ? Sure. Can there be 'alternate reality' piece of art portraying him as a girl ? Sure. Do you expect woman to portray Santa Klaus on a city parade ? I certainly don't. Same way I don't see why Virgin Marry would be portrayed by man.
Watching a parade how would you tell the person in the padded red and white costume with a white fake beard and a white hair wig with a hood over the head was male or female?
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Old 26th November 2018, 01:26 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Just like James Bond?
So now Gabby has to be a lesbian as well?
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Old 26th November 2018, 01:27 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Watching a parade how would you tell the person in the padded red and white costume with a white fake beard and a white hair wig with a hood over the head was male or female?
I would imagine the bellowing "Ho Ho Ho!!" might give away a clue or 3
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Old 26th November 2018, 02:28 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Watching a parade how would you tell the person in the padded red and white costume with a white fake beard and a white hair wig with a hood over the head was male or female?
Well...

Originally Posted by baron View Post
And if the woman is going to be so disguised that she's not identifiable as a woman, why bother? Might was well dress up a monkey or a wardrobe. Monkey Christmas.
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Old 26th November 2018, 02:44 AM   #125
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Meh... if someone wants a female Santa, or a female actress playing a male Santa, go right ahead. I won't stamp my feet at the insolence of this perversion of our social mores by cultural Marxist scum...
I also don't mind if people want to hold onto the Santa character they know from their own childhood, and prefer him to be played by a fat white man.
It's not exactly an either-or proposition, is it?
Let people hire who they want, and let's agree not to get angry because 'white/male Santa is racist/sexist' or 'black/female/skinny Santa will confuse the kids/isn't what I'm used to'.


Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
And of course only lives because of the magic words of a rabbi, and the golem (the OG SJW snowflake) protects the people of the ghetto from persecution.

As voiced by Samuel L. Jackson.
I'd watch that!
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Old 26th November 2018, 02:45 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Well...
You seem to be agreeing with me that it really doesn't matter who wears the costume as long as they can do what the role calls for, which is usually waving at crowds or causing complete confusion for the little kids.

"But dad you always said I was to run away if anyone tried to grab me and make me sit on their lap, and now you are saying I should sit on this so-called "old2 person's lap - and let's be frank dad - it is totally obvious this isn't a mythical personification of charity and giving, it's someone in an tatty old costume that smells of mothballs. I think we need to have a word about your parental advice."
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Old 26th November 2018, 02:56 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You seem to be agreeing with me that it really doesn't matter who wears the costume as long as they can do what the role calls for, which is usually waving at crowds or causing complete confusion for the little kids.
If that's what's called for then no, it doesn't matter. A monkey could do it.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
"But dad you always said I was to run away if anyone tried to grab me and make me sit on their lap, and now you are saying I should sit on this so-called "old2 person's lap - and let's be frank dad - it is totally obvious this isn't a mythical personification of charity and giving, it's someone in an tatty old costume that smells of mothballs. I think we need to have a word about your parental advice."
There are degrees of confusion. Saying keep away from strangers but Santa is OK doesn't really cause a conflict of interest. Saying that Santa is a jolly man one day and a woman the next (a woman with a beard, no less), requires additional mental gymnastics which would confuse anybody who doesn't understand that it's all made up.

"You know, son, we'd love to perpetrate the traditional myth of a fat, jolly Santa coming down the Chimney on Christmas Eve night to leave you presents, because it's so much fun at your age, but there's no way us adults can construct a reasonable narrative to account for the improbable gender changes and facial hair discrepancies of the central festive character and therefore we must reveal that it's all made up and Santa doesn't really exist. I'll leave the door open and the landing light on. Don't cry or you'll be labelled an anti-diversity bigot. Night son, sleep well."
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Old 26th November 2018, 03:14 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
If that's what's called for then no, it doesn't matter. A monkey could do it.



There are degrees of confusion. Saying keep away from strangers but Santa is OK doesn't really cause a conflict of interest. Saying that Santa is a jolly man one day and a woman the next (a woman with a beard, no less), requires additional mental gymnastics which would confuse anybody who doesn't understand that it's all made up.

....snip...[/i]
Children learn about "dressing up" very early on. With your view I'm surprised you don't want to make pantomimes for "Over 18s only".

Kids really don't get confused nor upset with these things.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:10 AM   #129
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Forgive me if I have missed posts, but there seems to be a merging of turning the modern Santa as portrayed in pretty much all mediums as a male, into a female version of the same thing and earlier posts of having women getting to be hired to try to pretend they are blokes, and trying not to look like a female, wearing the beard and padding

I was just wondering which is the most important to the pro female Santas

The former which I have never heard a valid reason for, or the later which seems slightly pointless, as if everyone is magically going to be oblivious they are a chick.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:12 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Children learn about "dressing up" very early on.
Well yes, kids understand that dressing up is pretend. The whole point about Father Christmas is that young kids believe he actually exists. When you stop believing it's no longer a thing.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
With your view I'm surprised you don't want to make pantomimes for "Over 18s only".

Kids really don't get confused nor upset with these things.
No, there's no confusion in telling a kid Santa is just a woman dressed up as a man in the name of political correctness, but it's cruel and unnecessary.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:29 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Well yes, kids understand that dressing up is pretend. The whole point about Father Christmas is that young kids believe he actually exists. When you stop believing it's no longer a thing.



No, there's no confusion in telling a kid Santa is just a woman dressed up as a man in the name of political correctness, but it's cruel and unnecessary.
Wow.
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Old 26th November 2018, 06:08 AM   #132
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My son has a re-issue of The Night Before Christmas (A Visit from St. Nicholas) with glorious illustrations. We read it all through Advent to Christmas every year between 2 and 8 years old (him, not me).

It's a special hardcover that I ordered so he'd have a legacy book with memories to it and the illustrations are brilliant. Big Fat White St. Nicholas right there in the flesh.

Yet at 3 when he had his first Santa encounter with a very skinny Hong Kong Chinese Santa at his Kindergarten, he wasn't at all confused, did not run out the door to play in traffic and thus far hasn't become an axe murderer. I'll keep an eye on him, though.
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Old 26th November 2018, 07:07 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Er, he's a fictional character? He doesn't exist as an actual character but he does exist as a fictional character, and as such has defined and specific attributes. Is there any actual reason I'm having to explain this to you?
No, I just wanted you to admit that Santa is a fictional character, and not just fictional, but a fiction created over time, evolving into what we have today. As such there is no real definitive determination of what he is or should be, because the character has changed already since it come into existence.

Originally Posted by baron View Post
The original mould is the vision of the character's creator. Why should characters evolve aside from in a manner inherent in the original concept? It makes a mockery of the artist to presume to redefine their creative vision, especially for non-creative reasons such as political correctness.
Who was the original creator, and what was their intent? Did it make a mockery of Lord of the Rings that Arwen took the place of Glorfindel in the movie? Did anyone but hyper Tolkien fans even notice the change? How about the change of Hermione Granger to a black woman in "Harry Potter and the Cursed Child"? J. K. Rowling doesn't seem to think that the change was a mockery of her work, in fact her response to the outcry was "Idiots are going Idiot."

Originally Posted by baron View Post
Santa Claus has remained unchanged for six hundred years
As others have shown, this is just blatantly untrue.
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Old 26th November 2018, 07:40 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
No, I just wanted you to admit that Santa is a fictional character, and not just fictional, but a fiction created over time, evolving into what we have today.
Maybe this should be in Science and Medicine, then, because men don't evolve to become women.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Who was the original creator, and what was their intent? Did it make a mockery of Lord of the Rings that Arwen took the place of Glorfindel in the movie? Did anyone but hyper Tolkien fans even notice the change? How about the change of Hermione Granger to a black woman in "Harry Potter and the Cursed Child"? J. K. Rowling doesn't seem to think that the change was a mockery of her work, in fact her response to the outcry was "Idiots are going Idiot."
So what?

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
As others have shown, this is just blatantly untrue.
Really? You go ahead and point out the image(s) over the past 600 years that vary in any meaningful way from the current representation.

https://publicdomainreview.org/colle...f-santa-claus/
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Old 26th November 2018, 07:52 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Maybe this should be in Science and Medicine, then, because men don't evolve to become women.



So what?



Really? You go ahead and point out the image(s) over the past 600 years that vary in any meaningful way from the current representation.

https://publicdomainreview.org/colle...f-santa-claus/
You remind me of the old joke about the idiot rapist who is put in a police lineup and immediately shouts out "That's her!"

Your link disproves your claim! Please note that portly Santa dates to about the middle of the 19th century, as I said earlier. Prior to that he's svelte enough to be going to his pilates class after he makes his rounds.
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Old 26th November 2018, 08:00 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
You remind me of the old joke about the idiot rapist who is put in a police lineup and immediately shouts out "That's her!"

Your link disproves your claim! Please note that portly Santa dates to about the middle of the 19th century, as I said earlier. Prior to that he's svelte enough to be going to his pilates class after he makes his rounds.
But you can't provide evidence to dispute my claim other than Santa got more 'portly' some 150 years ago. I therefore refer you to my qualifier (above) that Santa did not "vary in any meaningful way." You know, like change species or sex or colour. With that in mind, give it another go.
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Old 26th November 2018, 08:16 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
But you can't provide evidence to dispute my claim other than Santa got more 'portly' some 150 years ago. I therefore refer you to my qualifier (above) that Santa did not "vary in any meaningful way." You know, like change species or sex or colour. With that in mind, give it another go.
You just redefined your terms by eliminating his portliness from the list of classic characteristics. Given that some depictions skip the red and white clothing, that leaves us with "bloke with a big beard".
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Old 26th November 2018, 08:39 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
You just redefined your terms by eliminating his portliness from the list of classic characteristics.
I've redefined 'meaningful'? How so? I don't see the idea of a character becoming portly over a 600 year period being 'meaningful' in terms of redefinition of his essential character. If your uncle turns up at Christmas 20lbs heavier than last year will you react the same as if he'd turned up as a woman?

Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Given that some depictions skip the red and white clothing, that leaves us with "bloke with a big beard".
Well, two out of 15 skip the traditional clothing, and one of those is a joke image entitled 'Santa Claus has gone to war'. So, a portly bloke with a big white beard who has worn an identical outfit for over 210 years and a broadly identical one for 400 years before that it is then. Maybe you can explain how a sudden sex change fits into this historical evolution.
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Old 26th November 2018, 08:54 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Well, two out of 15 skip the traditional clothing, and one of those is a joke image entitled 'Santa Claus has gone to war'. So, a portly bloke with a big white beard who has worn an identical outfit for over 210 years and a broadly identical one for 400 years before that it is then. Maybe you can explain how a sudden sex change fits into this historical evolution.
He hadn't worn 'an identical outfit' for all that time; far from it. It wasn't even fully established in the 1860s.

From the article you linked:

'Although Nast [1863] had gotten the paraphernalia of reindeer, sleigh, etc down to a tee, the famous red suit was still yet to be set. Over the decades Santa would be depicted in a variety of colours such as blue, green and the yellow as pictured in this 1864 edition of Moore’s “A Visit from St. Nicholas”. '
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Old 26th November 2018, 09:02 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
He hadn't worn 'an identical outfit' for all that time; far from it. It wasn't even fully established in the 1860s.

From the article you linked:

'Although Nast [1863] had gotten the paraphernalia of reindeer, sleigh, etc down to a tee, the famous red suit was still yet to be set. Over the decades Santa would be depicted in a variety of colours such as blue, green and the yellow as pictured in this 1864 edition of Moore’s “A Visit from St. Nicholas”. '
It was still brightly coloured robes, which aren't too dissimilar, but if you prefer we have a bearded bloke who, over the course of 600 years, became slightly fatter and opted for a scarlet-and-fur vibe.

It's kind of tricky to work 'became a woman' into that narrative without it becoming somewhat jarring.
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Old 26th November 2018, 10:19 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It was still brightly coloured robes, which aren't too dissimilar, but if you prefer we have a bearded bloke who, over the course of 600 years, became slightly fatter and opted for a scarlet-and-fur vibe.

It's kind of tricky to work 'became a woman' into that narrative without it becoming somewhat jarring.
So ascetic Turkish cleric isn’t any different from fat white bloke. Good to know you don’t see race or basic philosophy as a differentiating criteria.

Nobody is saying “all Santas must be women.” You are saying that all Santas must be white men.
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Old 26th November 2018, 02:42 PM   #142
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In case it hadn't been said yet, Santa's jolly laugh making him jiggle like a bowl full of jelly could take on a whole new dimension...
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Old 26th November 2018, 03:02 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It was still brightly coloured robes, which aren't too dissimilar, but if you prefer we have a bearded bloke who, over the course of 600 years, became slightly fatter and opted for a scarlet-and-fur vibe.

It's kind of tricky to work 'became a woman' into that narrative without it becoming somewhat jarring.
Even trickier still to turn from goat to man.
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Old 26th November 2018, 03:08 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
So ascetic Turkish cleric isn’t any different from fat white bloke. Good to know you don’t see race or basic philosophy as a differentiating criteria.
Yep, it's good to see that I don't see much difference between a bearded Turk and a bearded Westerner. Maybe I should learn to be more divisive, can you teach me?

In addition, I think you'll find the 13th century occurred more than 600 years ago.

Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Nobody is saying “all Santas must be women.” You are saying that all Santas must be white men.
There is one fictional Santa. That's why everybody who pretends to be Santa dresses up the same and tries to look the same. It kind of destroys the illusion for various Santas of different genders to pop up. Then again, maybe we should teach our kids not to be gender bigots and screw their childhood.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Even trickier still to turn from goat to man.
I'm not sure that Father Christmas was ever a goat.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:24 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yep, it's good to see that I don't see much difference between a bearded Turk and a bearded Westerner. Maybe I should learn to be more divisive, can you teach me?

In addition, I think you'll find the 13th century occurred more than 600 years ago.



There is one fictional Santa. That's why everybody who pretends to be Santa dresses up the same and tries to look the same. It kind of destroys the illusion for various Santas of different genders to pop up. Then again, maybe we should teach our kids not to be gender bigots and screw their childhood.



I'm not sure that Father Christmas was ever a goat.

Was, too.

Quote:
The Yule Goat, (Swedish julbock, Finnish joulupukki, Norwegian julebukk) is one of the oldest Scandinavian Christmas symbols. Its origin is the legend about the Thundergod Thor who rode in the sky in a wagon pulled by two goats. An old custom was for young people to dress up in goat skins and go from house to house and sing and perform simple plays. They were rewarded with food and drink. The Yule Goat at one time also brought Yule gifts. This character was later replaced with "jultomten" (Santa Claus).
http://skandland.com/vikxmas.htm


I should add, jultomten / joulutontti these days are Father Christmas' helpers, not Father Christmas himself!
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:51 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Was, too.

http://skandland.com/vikxmas.htm


I should add, jultomten / joulutontti these days are Father Christmas' helpers, not Father Christmas himself!
No, that says the Yule goat merged with Santa Claus, who is a different character from Father Christmas (who is, separately, merging with Santa).

ETA: Your link doesn't even say that the Yule goat became Santa, but that santa took over the job of delivering presents. You really need to work on comprehension.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:05 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
If that's what's called for then no, it doesn't matter. A monkey could do it.

Alright, it's truly tragic that this needs expanded on, and as I am too lazy to draw up a matrix, I'll explain with words.

Human women make better Santas than monkeys or wardrobes. Yes, even basing it just on your absurd reductions.

Now, putting on a costume is easier for human women than monkeys or wardrobes. It may shock you to know, but most women can dress themselves, which the other two cannot. They also tend to keep their clothing on readily. I can see your confusion as wardrobes easily contain costumes, but, and not a lot of people know this, that isn't the same as wearing it.

Human women are also better waving at crowds than the other two. Even those fancy wardrobes that have the swing out arms aren't as good as waving as most human women. Now perhaps you haven't seen many women waving at you, but trust me, they are pretty good at it.

Onto the other elements that playing Santa can use, but that you remove with your silly reductions. Most human women can speak. They use words. They tend to know quite a few words, even compared to monkeys! No, putting books inside the wardrobe doesn't count.

Human women also tend to throw poop less than monkeys, and while they might associate with witches, most don't have any real connections to lions. While it might seem like it after a long session, suffocating inside a woman is also very rare.

So, as much as you might not think human women have many advantages portraying Santa over monkeys or wardrobes, they actually are far and away better at it.

Also, monkeys have in fact, portrayed Santa. They have their own I'm told.

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Old 26th November 2018, 05:07 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
My son has a re-issue of The Night Before Christmas (A Visit from St. Nicholas) with glorious illustrations. We read it all through Advent to Christmas every year between 2 and 8 years old (him, not me).

It's a special hardcover that I ordered so he'd have a legacy book with memories to it and the illustrations are brilliant. Big Fat White St. Nicholas right there in the flesh.

Yet at 3 when he had his first Santa encounter with a very skinny Hong Kong Chinese Santa at his Kindergarten, he wasn't at all confused, did not run out the door to play in traffic and thus far hasn't become an axe murderer. I'll keep an eye on him, though.

Nicholas - a man's name. Thanks for settling this
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:07 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
No, that says the Yule goat merged with Santa Claus, who is a different character from Father Christmas (who is, separately, merging with Santa).

ETA: Your link doesn't even say that the Yule goat became Santa, but that santa took over the job of delivering presents. You really need to work on comprehension.
Father Christmas is STILL Joulupukki = Christmas Goat in scandinavia.

Quote:
The Santa who is most recognizable today is the result of a mix of various stories and cultures, and many of his iconic traits have been added to the tale over the centuries. American Santa evolved from Sinterklaas, who was brought to New York by Dutch settlers in the 17th century. As time passed, various groups and individuals helped shape the image of modern Santa, adding bits of lore such as flying reindeer and magical chimney abilities. A Finnish American, Haddon Sundblom, solidified the image of modern, jolly American Santa with his famous Christmas illustrations for Coca-Cola in the 1930s. Sunblom’s Santa, however, couldn’t be further from the original Finnish Santa, Joulupukki.
Joulupukki translates to “Yule Goat.” Yule, a pre-Christian pagan festival, was a midwinter celebration with feasting and sacrifice that took place in many Germanic cultures. So what do goats have to do with it? While sadly there’s no definitive answer, the most popular theory suggests that goats are linked to the god Thor. Associated with storms and fertility, Thor commanded a goat-driven chariot, and goats became associated with harvests and fertility through him. Traditions evolved as they tend to do, and men took to dressing up in horned goat costumes as part of the rituals. In Finland, the nuuttipukki as they are called, were evil spirits who would go door to door demanding gifts and leftovers from the Yule feast.
https://inktank.fi/how-joulupukki-th...ughty-to-nice/


So there we have it: the Coca-Cola Santa Claus we know today as 'Father Christmas', and as imagined by Baron, was designed by an American Finn.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:14 PM   #150
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Enough Christmas Goats. Somebody post the babes in slutty Santa gear again.

It's like this isn't America anymore.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:18 PM   #151
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Here you are: the REAL Father Christmas:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gak/6702824661
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:20 PM   #152
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Nicholas - a man's name. Thanks for settling this
Is the world not ready for Saint Nikki?
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:27 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post

ETA: Your link doesn't even say that the Yule goat became Santa, but that santa took over the job of delivering presents.
Yes, but when the Protestants threw out venerating saints, Christkindl (Christ Child) took over the gift giving, which switched from Dec. 6 (St. Nick's feast day) to Dec. 25 (Christ Mass). Then Christkindl morphed into Kris Kringle, who looked a lot like ol' sinterklaas. Christkindl is actually still around in some regions. Played by a *gasp* woman.

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Old 26th November 2018, 05:27 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here you are: the REAL Father Christmas:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gak/6702824661
Ya know, I ran and got the lotion and tissues in anticipation of a bimbo in red lingerie with white trim named Nikki, and what do you have? Goats again. You are very, very sick.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:30 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ya know, I ran and got the lotion and tissues in anticipation of a bimbo in red lingerie with white trim named Nikki, and what do you have? Goats again. You are very, very sick.
Don't join the masons as they have all kinds of strange goat rituals, remnants of the ancient regime.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:32 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Don't join the masons as they have all kinds of strange goat rituals, remnants of the ancient regime.
With or without red lingerie?
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Old 26th November 2018, 07:01 PM   #157
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I have it on pretty good authority that Santa has also been played by a robot.

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Old 26th November 2018, 07:48 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I have it on pretty good authority that Santa has also been played by a robot.

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Blasphemy of True SantaTM lore!
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Old 26th November 2018, 07:56 PM   #159
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The last thing we need is Santa smashing the slay into some ones roof because she is still putting on her make-up on while driving.
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Old 26th November 2018, 08:00 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
With or without red lingerie?
In Turkey, the birthpalce of True SantaTM, a lot of shops sell red lingerie around New Years, which many Turks believe is when we celebrate Christmas and they do the trees lights presents stuff.
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