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Old 25th November 2018, 03:04 PM   #1
Captain_Swoop
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Russia attacks Ukraine Navy ships

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46338671

Quote:
Russia has seized three Ukrainian naval vessels off the coast of the Crimean Peninsula in a major escalation of tensions between the two countries.

Two gunboats and a tug were captured by Russian forces. Ukraine says they were fired on and six crew were injured.
Russia has blockaded the Sea of Azov which has two Ukrainian ports on its northern shore - Berdyansk and Mariupol used for exporting grain and produce such as steel, also for importing coal.

In 2003, Ukraine and Russia signed a treaty that defined the Sea of Azov as internal waters of the two countries. The treaty guaranteed free navigation to all Ukrainian and Russian vessels.
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Old 25th November 2018, 03:28 PM   #2
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I see that access to the Ukrainian ports in the Seas of Azov was already reduced due to Russia building a bloody great big but low bridge across the Strait. Civil engineering as a tool of blockade, it seems.
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Old 25th November 2018, 03:42 PM   #3
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Has Donald Trump tweeted about it yet?

(Its a sign of the times we live in that this is actually a serious question).
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Old 25th November 2018, 04:15 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Has Donald Trump tweeted about it yet?

(Its a sign of the times we live in that this is actually a serious question).
Watch for conflicting statements coming from Trump vs the State Department.

Ukraine seems ready to declare war. That's probably what Russia wants them to do, and it won't end well for Ukraine if that happens. Ukraine may have substantially improved it's military in the past few years, but they are still badly outmatched by the Russian military.

Russia may want to move fast before the U.S. House of Representatives un-neuters itself and starts passing popular legislation which puts the Republican Senate in the uncomfortable position of needing to show just how pro-Russian they have become.

Last edited by crescent; 25th November 2018 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 25th November 2018, 06:36 PM   #5
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EU statement says

"We expect Russia to restore freedom of passage at the Kerch strait and urge all to act with utmost restraint to de-escalate the situation immediately."

"The EU does not and will not recognise the illegal annexation of the Crimean peninsula by Russia."
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Old 25th November 2018, 07:44 PM   #6
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In short:

Originally Posted by Real News
Summing up the existing data, it can be concluded that:
  • When the Ukrainian warships entered Russian territorial waters, there has been an attempt to block the advance of the Ukrainian naval group. One of the ships of the Russian Federal Security Service’s Border Service provoked a maritime collision accident with a Ukrainian ship by putting own hull on the vector of the Ukrainian warship’s advance. In the start of the video, it’s possible to hear multiple requests to the Ukrainian warships to stop their advance.
  • Within the next few hours, there was a close escort of the Ukrainian ships by the Russian naval group. Apparently both the groups were inside or near the Russian marginal waters.
  • In a couple of hours, there was a firefight accident between the Russian and Ukrainian naval groups.
  • The Ukrainian Navy recognizes that the incident happened near the border line of the Russian 12-nautical miles zone.
  • The Ukrainian naval group was completely suppressed by the Russian naval group.
  • There were casualties among the Ukrainian servicemen.
  • Warships of the Ukrainian naval group suffered damages.
  • It is confirmed that the Ukrainian naval group was blocked and is now escorted/towed by the Russian naval group in the direction of one of the Russian ports in Crimea.

Hopefully one of the last provocations of President Porky and his embarrassing regime before he will be kicked out in the upcoming elections, given approval ratings in the promille region. Something only the notorious BBC pre$$titutes and the utter morons that still hang on to their deceptive ways can take seriously.

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 25th November 2018 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 26th November 2018, 09:42 AM   #7
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Radio communication between Russian leadership and border guard ships. Russian sound, english subtitles.

Quote:
Radio interception, as an evidence of purposeful aggressive escalation of the situation (in the Black and Azov seas) which was ordered by millitary and military-political leadership of the Russian Federation.
https://www.facebook.com/GeneralStaf..._fb_noscript=1

Don't understand russian, so not sure if real.
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Old 26th November 2018, 09:46 AM   #8
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So now it's clear what the reason for this nonsense was: Porky seems to think it's a good idea to go full-blown dictator and has declared martial law. Maybe he thinks his puppet masters don't mind the optics as long as he comes across a bit nicer than Mr. Bone Saw...

But the latest news is that instead of the Rada approving his decree, hours ago there was one of the nice little parliament turmoils they like to do and now it has "adjouned the session".
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Old 26th November 2018, 10:09 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I see that access to the Ukrainian ports in the Seas of Azov was already reduced due to Russia building a bloody great big but low bridge across the Strait. Civil engineering as a tool of blockade, it seems.
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Old 26th November 2018, 10:55 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Maybe he thinks his puppet masters don't mind the optics as long as he comes across a bit nicer than Mr. Bone Saw..

The Atlantic Council creeps have already given the marching order that "Martial Law" is a "sideshow" one shouldn't focus on, otherwise Putin will win.
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Old 26th November 2018, 10:58 AM   #11
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so... letting Russia win is the only way to prevent Russia from winning?
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Old 26th November 2018, 12:05 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
so... letting Russia win is the only way to prevent Russia from winning?
In other words, Russia instructs Ukraine to stop hitting itself.
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Old 26th November 2018, 03:37 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
In short:

Quote:
One of the ships of the Russian Federal Security Serviceís Border Service provoked a maritime collision accident with a Ukrainian ship by putting own hull on the vector of the Ukrainian warshipís advance.

Hopefully one of the last provocations of President Porky and his embarrassing regime before he will be kicked out in the upcoming elections, given approval ratings in the promille region. Something only the notorious BBC pre$$titutes and the utter morons that still hang on to their deceptive ways can take seriously.
I am not sure how the quoted text is actually a defense of the Russian Navy.

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses...69037382828033

The Russian ship is moving much faster and makes a very clear turn to move towards the Ukrainian ship, which stays steady and slow. The Russian ship then runs into the Ukrainian ship. (If one counts a tugboat as a "ship", all three Ukrainian "ships" were much smaller than the Russian ships.)

They "put their hull on the vector of the Ukrainian warship" is just babble speak for "We pointed our ship at them and rammed them".

Two of the Russian ships collided with each other. This photo shows damage to one of them. Note that the damage is far too high above the waterline to have come from either of the little Ukrainian boats or the tug. Referenced at 2:38 in this video:

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I AGREE
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:23 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I see that access to the Ukrainian ports in the Seas of Azov was already reduced due to Russia building a bloody great big but low bridge across the Strait. Civil engineering as a tool of blockade, it seems.
Not the first time, Ukraine built a dam in a canal to cut off Crimea's drinking water supply in 2016, on top of an already existing road & rail blockade by some of its battalion and cutting off the electricity supply. No wonder they're so pissed off about the bridge, it circumvents their blockade.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:28 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
So now it's clear what the reason for this nonsense was: Porky seems to think it's a good idea to go full-blown dictator and has declared martial law. Maybe he thinks his puppet masters don't mind the optics as long as he comes across a bit nicer than Mr. Bone Saw...

But the latest news is that instead of the Rada approving his decree, hours ago there was one of the nice little parliament turmoils they like to do and now it has "adjouned the session".
It got approved. But yeah, looks like installing martial law was the goal.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:40 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I am not sure how the quoted text is actually a defense of the Russian Navy.

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses...69037382828033

The Russian ship is moving much faster and makes a very clear turn to move towards the Ukrainian ship, which stays steady and slow. The Russian ship then runs into the Ukrainian ship. (If one counts a tugboat as a "ship", all three Ukrainian "ships" were much smaller than the Russian ships.)

They "put their hull on the vector of the Ukrainian warship" is just babble speak for "We pointed our ship at them and rammed them".

Two of the Russian ships collided with each other. This photo shows damage to one of them. Note that the damage is far too high above the waterline to have come from either of the little Ukrainian boats or the tug. Referenced at 2:38 in this video:

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I AGREE
Ramming is a legal course of action to defend one's territorial waters, especially after warnings to leave have been ignored, no idea what your problem is with it.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:45 PM   #17
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Quote:
Ramming is a legal course of action to defend one's territorial waters, especially after warnings to leave have been ignored, no idea what your problem is with it.
Is it?

Are the waters in question 'territorial waters' exclusive to Russia?
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:24 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Is it?
Yes, a state is legally permitted to defend its borders.

Quote:
Are the waters in question 'territorial waters' exclusive to Russia?
The Kerch strait is, rights of passage are determined by the 2003 Treaty on the Legal Status of the Sea of Azov and the Kerch Strait, which basically says that commercial traffic has free passage and military traffic requires prior notification and permission which was apparently not done.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:37 PM   #19
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Apparently Ukraine is admitting not following the procedures regarding passage through the Kerch strait:
Quote:
According to the Ukrainian Navy, the transfer of its vessels from the port of Odesa to the port of Mariupol was planned in advance. It said that while en route on November 25 the ships had radioed the Russian Coast Guard twice to announce their approach to the Kerch Strait but received no response.

Hours later, as the boats approached the strait, they were intercepted by Russian Coast Guard vessels.
Here is the procedure:
Quote:
Each vessel (ship) before entering or beginning movement in the RVTS of the Kerch Strait coverage area should establish radio communication with the RVTS of the Kerch Strait operator and report following data on the vessel:
Операторы РСУДС Керченского пролива - number assigned by the International Maritime Organization (IMO) to vessel;

- type, name of the vessel;

- vessel number assigned by the maritime mobile service;

- country of the ship's flag;

- port of destination;

- maximum draft of vessel;

- type and amount of cargo, presence of hazardous cargo and class of hazard;

- number of crew members and passengers;

- presence of technical faults and other limitations which influence navigation safety,

and receive permission to begin movement.
The highlighted bits show where Ukraine, even by its own explanation, violated the procedure.
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Old 26th November 2018, 06:47 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Apparently Ukraine is admitting not following the procedures regarding passage through the Kerch strait:


Here is the procedure:


The highlighted bits show where Ukraine, even by its own explanation, violated the procedure.
The first highlighted bit shows where Russia violated procedure by not replying. Russia seems to have initiated the violation of procedure through that non-response.

Ukraine has a right of passage. Russia refusing to reply does not negate that right.

Last edited by crescent; 26th November 2018 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 26th November 2018, 07:26 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The first highlighted bit shows where Russia violated procedure by not replying. Russia seems to have initiated the violation of procedure through that non-response.
It is not in evidence that Ukraine attempted communication and/or Russia didn't reply, that's just Ukraine's version of the events. The Russian version of events contradicts this, they say they never got any request from Ukraine. What the two parties agree upon, however, is that Ukraine did not have the required permission to proceed through the strait yet attempted to do so anyway.

Even if we assume the Ukrainian version of events, then the non-reply does not constitute a violation of procedure.

Even if we assume that the non-reply constitutes a violation of procedure then this still doesn't give the Ukrainian vessels permission to enter the strait. Do you think a traindriver can freely decide to enter an intersection merely by virtue of failing to establish communication with the local signal center? Do you think a pilot can freely decide to land at an airport merely by virtue of failing to establish communication with air traffic control? Most likely there are other procedures to be followed in case communication with the traffic controller can not be established (such as attempting to establish communication with a neighbouring zone instead and requesting instructions from there).

Furthermore, the evidence (video in particular) shows the vessels unresponsive to the instructions they were given by the coastal guard ships so they didn't really seem to care much about permission anyway. In train parlance, it would be not only freely deciding by oneself to enter an intersection without permission from the signal box but then also deciding to ignore the signal man frantically waving a red flag at you.

Quote:
Ukraine has a right of passage. Russia refusing to reply does not negate that right.
Then they have to take it up with the appropriate maritime authority. Ukraine's vessels have violated (safety) procedures and did not have the required permission to enter the strait, that's pretty much the end of it.
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Old 26th November 2018, 07:27 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The first highlighted bit shows where Russia violated procedure by not replying. Russia seems to have initiated the violation of procedure through that non-response.

Ukraine has a right of passage. Russia refusing to reply does not negate that right.
I am not defending Russia on this, however:

I did not see anything in the IMO resolution A. 857(20) regarding response time requirements of a VTS, or escalation procedure. If it's not an emergency situation, I would think the vessel Captains should notify their national authorities and await diplomatic resolution or further instruction prior to proceeding.
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Old 26th November 2018, 07:31 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I am not defending Russia on this, however:

I did not see anything in the IMO resolution A. 857(20) regarding response time requirements of a VTS, or escalation procedure. If it's not an emergency situation, I would think the vessel Captains should notify their national authorities and await diplomatic resolution or further instruction prior to proceeding.
It's likely that more specialized backup procedures exist for such cases - which would be more in place for cases like for example technical problems with communication equipment. Such backup procedures at least exist for the railways, such as attempting to contact the signal box of a neighbouring zone.
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Old 26th November 2018, 07:38 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I am not defending Russia on this, however:

I did not see anything in the IMO resolution A. 857(20) regarding response time requirements of a VTS, or escalation procedure. If it's not an emergency situation, I would think the vessel Captains should notify their national authorities and await diplomatic resolution or further instruction prior to proceeding.

I'd be interested to know what kind of responses have occurred in the past.

Has this procedure been held to rigorously on every single transit, every time, without fail, since the signing of the treaty 15 years ago? Is this the very first time that a transit occurred without such coordination?
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Last edited by quadraginta; 26th November 2018 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 26th November 2018, 07:50 PM   #25
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Russia annexing the Crimea? Perfectly fine!

A Ukrainian tugboat not following procedures? Aggressor nation! Begin WWIII, and it's their fault!
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Old 27th November 2018, 04:47 PM   #26
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I see the Putin fans have shown up in force...
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Old 27th November 2018, 05:08 PM   #27
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Russia is detaining the captured sailors as criminals who entered Russian territory illegally. They will be detained until some future as yet undecided trial date
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Old 27th November 2018, 06:15 PM   #28
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Been pretty transparent what happens to these people. Not Putin's fault if Captain America and Captain England lose the plot.

The two SBU (Ukrainian "intelligence" LOL) officers found on the ships who were running the show were interrogated and videos published by FSB. The three wounded soldiers are kids in active duty. Twelve of the 24 sailors have faced court today and will stay two months in prison (on charges with possible punishment up to six years), the others will face court tomorrow.
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Old 28th November 2018, 06:48 AM   #29
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Russia is slacking - they haven't accused the Ukrainian naval personnel of being paedos and druggies yet.
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Old 28th November 2018, 10:23 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see the Putin fans have shown up in force...
What's this got to do with Stormy Daniels and the Mueller investigation and Brexit? The world does not exist outside of America. It's a faraway country of which few people have heard.

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 28th November 2018 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 28th November 2018, 10:27 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I see that access to the Ukrainian ports in the Seas of Azov was already reduced due to Russia building a bloody great big but low bridge across the Strait. Civil engineering as a tool of blockade, it seems.
That's why the US Navy pretty much demanded that the Chesapeake Bay be crossed with a (much more expensive and difficult to build) bridge-tunnel instead of a normal bridge, that a collapse of the bridge either intentional (sabotage, attack) or accidental (storm, structural failure) had the potential to trap the entire Atlantic Fleet in Norfolk.

Seems Russia has just accomplished a passive aggressive version of just that.
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Old 28th November 2018, 10:34 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
What's this got to do with Stormy Daniels and the Mueller investigation and Brexit? The world does not exist outside of America. It's a faraway country of which few people have heard.
It's a preview for the US:
Putin's poll numbers are down, so he needs an international conflict
Let's see if Trump learns the lesson.
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Old 28th November 2018, 11:07 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I'd be interested to know what kind of responses have occurred in the past.

Has this procedure been held to rigorously on every single transit, every time, without fail, since the signing of the treaty 15 years ago? Is this the very first time that a transit occurred without such coordination?
Worth noting that Russia has been inspecting all ships travelling between the Black sea and the Ukrainian ports in the Sea of Azov. It used to take a ship about a day to move from Mariupol to the Black Sea, it now takes a week.


Why Ukraine-Russia sea clash is fraught with risk
Quote:
Under the terms of a 2003 agreement, the Azov sea and its access point through the Kerch Strait are supposed to be shared by Ukraine and Russia.

The 2003 deal didn't put any dotted lines on the chart. Instead, the vessels of both countries were given carte blanche to pretty much roam as they wished.
Quote:
Cargo ships that wanted to reach Ukraine's Azov ports now found themselves subject to more inspections and lengthy delays that sometimes stretched to a week.

With an extra day at sea costing a shipping company up to $15,000 (£11,700), picking up steel or grain from Mariupol was now an unpredictable proposition, and some understandably opted to stay away.


Ukraine-Russia sea clash: Who controls the territorial waters around Crimea?

Quote:
The law of the sea
The UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) sets out various scenarios that give a state freedom of passage, irrespective of a state's territorial waters.

All ships, including foreign warships, enjoy the right of "innocent passage" within another state's territorial sea under international law.

Russia has disputed whether the passage was innocent. The UN law states that a passage is innocent "so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal state". That includes threat or use of force, exercise or practice with weapons or any act of propaganda affecting the security of the state.

Russia would need to prove that the passage of the Ukrainian vessels was not innocent and that Ukraine had showed "some form of hostile intent", says Mr Muller, to act against them.
Quote:
Ukraine has also highlighted provisions (Article 38 and Article 44) of the convention, which require all ships to be given the freedom to travel through a strait from one part of the high seas to another - known as transit passage.

There are also rules within the UN convention that "ensure that ports which can only be reached by a single route through the strait, as is true of all ports in the Sea of Azov, always remain accessible", says Andrew Serdy, director of the Institute of Maritime Law at Southampton University.


Remember that time during the Cold War when NATO closed Soviet passage through the Bosporus? Bottled up the Soviet fleet in the Baltic by closing off access through the Danish Straits, or the ÷resund (bordered on one side by Denmark, a NATO country? Neither do I because it never happened, such things are a very big deal.

Last edited by crescent; 28th November 2018 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 28th November 2018, 12:16 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see the Putin fans have shown up in force...
Got to get the overtime in before the New Year break.
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Old 28th November 2018, 12:22 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Got to get the overtime in before the New Year break.
I really don't think the ones who poat here are paid shills....we are too small a fry.
I think the Putin fanboys hwe are just that people , who for some warped ideological reason, support Putin. That many of them are on the far left end of the spectrum is interesintg..maybe they are of the "Putin is a Communist at heart" school of thought.
I think the term is "useful idiots".
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Old 28th November 2018, 12:22 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Remember that time during the Cold War when NATO closed Soviet passage through the Bosporus? Bottled up the Soviet fleet in the Baltic by closing off access through the Great Neck? Neither do I because it never happened, such things are a very big deal.
Er, the Black Sea?
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Old 28th November 2018, 12:25 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's why the US Navy pretty much demanded that the Chesapeake Bay be crossed with a (much more expensive and difficult to build) bridge-tunnel instead of a normal bridge, that a collapse of the bridge either intentional (sabotage, attack) or accidental (storm, structural failure) had the potential to trap the entire Atlantic Fleet in Norfolk.

Seems Russia has just accomplished a passive aggressive version of just that.
I would no be surprised if the Baltic states soon begin to receive the sttentions of Vlad the Impaler II.
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Old 28th November 2018, 12:27 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Russia is slacking - they haven't accused the Ukrainian naval personnel of being paedos and druggies yet.
I suspect some "incidents" along the Russia Ukaraine border are next on the agenda.
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Old 28th November 2018, 12:31 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Er, the Black Sea?
Baltic - but with a typo. Great Belt connects Baltic to Atlantic via Denmark. But I wrote Neck instead of Belt due to brain fart. I'll see if I'm still in the edit window.

I was citing two examples, not one. NATO had the ability to constrain movement of a large part of the Soviet Navy, but never did. It would have been easy to control movement to and from both the Baltic and Black seas.

ETA: Sweden was Neutral during the Cold War, but leaned west. The Soviet Navy could have still traversed the ÷resund even if NATO closed access to the Danish and Danish/German straights. Unless NATO violated international law by denying access to the Swedish waters of the straight. Which seems a viable comparison, given that according to International law, Crimea is still Ukrainian. The boats were in internationally recognized Ukrainian waters if they were close to the Crimean coast during the altercation.

It would have been illegal (at least violating treaties that make up "international law") for NATO to block off the Baltic Sea during the cold war, that's why they didn't do it. It is illegal for Russia to block access to Azov, but they do it anyway.

Last edited by crescent; 28th November 2018 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 28th November 2018, 12:36 PM   #40
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Just from seeing the map I can understand Russia's desire to "annex" Ukraine. It will give them control of that entire basin.
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