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Old 28th November 2018, 12:46 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Just from seeing the map I can understand Russia's desire to "annex" Ukraine. It will give them control of that entire basin.

It's year round access to the Atlantic.

The list of other places with year round access to the Atlantic starts with Syria.
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Old 28th November 2018, 12:54 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Just from seeing the map I can understand Russia's desire to "annex" Ukraine. It will give them control of that entire basin.
Russia considers the Ukraine to be part of Russia - the list of famous "Russians" who were actually born in the Ukraine is huge.
The fact that Ukrainians don't would rather become Europeans feel like a kick in the nuts to many patriotic Russians.
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Old 28th November 2018, 01:16 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Er, the Black Sea?
Both the Black Sea and the Baltic could have been closed to Russian passage at any time, as could exit from the Med.
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Old 28th November 2018, 01:22 PM   #44
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The amount of land that Russia manages to have and still have almost no usable ports is sort of impressive.

I read somewhere (grain of salt) that due to the Great Lakes, Mississippi River, and St. Lawrence Seaway some Midwestern landlocked states have better sea access than the entire country of Russia does.
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Old 28th November 2018, 02:06 PM   #45
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And let's nor forget that Russia has always wanted Istnabul and control of the Straits of Bosphorus.
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Old 28th November 2018, 02:43 PM   #46
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I've been saying for a while that Russia has an existential conflict with pretty much the rest of the Northern Hemisphere, simply because of its geography.
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Old 28th November 2018, 03:17 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The amount of land that Russia manages to have and still have almost no usable ports is sort of impressive.

I read somewhere (grain of salt) that due to the Great Lakes, Mississippi River, and St. Lawrence Seaway some Midwestern landlocked states have better sea access than the entire country of Russia does.
Not really. Sure several midwestern states could gain access to the St Lawrence Seaway, but they still need to go through another countries waters before accessing open ocean. Also, and I've read about people that travel via canals and do the great loop, its slow, I mean really slow in parts, and size is very restricted in some canals.

Also, Murmansk is ice free year round. It doesn't access the Atlantic directly, but ships don't need to go into anyways territorial water.
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Old 28th November 2018, 05:23 PM   #48
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Seems like it would be a nice time for a U.S. carrier group to pay a friendly visit to Mariupol.

I expect we could get an invite from Kiev.
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Old 28th November 2018, 06:41 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Seems like it would be a nice time for a U.S. carrier group to pay a friendly visit to Mariupol.

I expect we could get an invite from Kiev.
My first thought: haha yeah like Trump is going to stand up to his buddy.

2nd thought: have we ever sent a carrier into the Black Sea? Will one fit through the Bosphorus? Will Turkey allow it? (Ok so that's 3 thoughts).

ETA: nope won't fit under a bridge.

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Old 28th November 2018, 06:43 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
2nd thought: have we ever sent a carrier into the Black Sea? Will one fit through the Bosporus?
Yes. And the Soviets had a "bumping incident" with it. ETA: never mind, it was a ship but not a carrier. But I'm pretty sure one will fit, it's a wide strait.
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Old 28th November 2018, 06:48 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
My first thought: haha yeah like Trump is going to stand up to his buddy.

2nd thought: have we ever sent a carrier into the Black Sea? Will one fit through the Bosphorus? Will Turkey allow it? (Ok so that's 3 thoughts).

ETA: nope won't fit under a bridge.
Huh? Which bridge?
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Old 28th November 2018, 06:49 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yes. And the Soviets had a "bumping incident" with it. ETA: never mind, it was a ship but not a carrier. But I'm pretty sure one will fit, it's a wide strait.
The risk is getting through without hitting another ship. That just happens to be there. On the blind bends. Where the currents are fast and course corrections are extreme. A ship totally not filled with Russians. Also your ship probably has spies on it. Why did you hit me?
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Old 28th November 2018, 06:50 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Seems like it would be a nice time for a U.S. carrier group to pay a friendly visit to Mariupol.

I expect we could get an invite from Kiev.
Horses for courses. You're thinking of half a dozen brigades of NATO combined arms ground forces, backed by NATO air power.

Sending a carrier group into the Black Sea is a pants-on-head-retarded idea, for anything less than guaranteeing the finishing stroke of a war you're already winning.
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Old 28th November 2018, 06:53 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Huh? Which bridge?
https://www.quora.com/If-the-US-sent...-who-would-win
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Old 28th November 2018, 06:59 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Ah, thanks.
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Old 28th November 2018, 07:09 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Horses for courses. You're thinking of half a dozen brigades of NATO combined arms ground forces, backed by NATO air power.

Sending a carrier group into the Black Sea is a pants-on-head-retarded idea, for anything less than guaranteeing the finishing stroke of a war you're already winning.

Yeah, I know it is kinda hyperbolic, but my point is that it would be interesting to see how the Russians responded to a perfectly legitimate visit by someone they didn't feel like they could bully with the same impunity.

On second thought, having said that, maybe the U.S. isn't the best choice.

Does Liechtenstein* have a navy?


(* Yes, I know. They have the distinction of being one of the only two double-landlocked countries. They're still probably more likely than Trump to face Putin down. )
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Old 28th November 2018, 09:57 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
My first thought: haha yeah like Trump is going to stand up to his buddy.

2nd thought: have we ever sent a carrier into the Black Sea? Will one fit through the Bosphorus? Will Turkey allow it? (Ok so that's 3 thoughts).

ETA: nope won't fit under a bridge.
That's why we need Helicarriers.
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Old 29th November 2018, 04:04 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
My first thought: haha yeah like Trump is going to stand up to his buddy.

2nd thought: have we ever sent a carrier into the Black Sea? Will one fit through the Bosphorus? Will Turkey allow it? (Ok so that's 3 thoughts).

ETA: nope won't fit under a bridge.
The Montreux Convention (or the way it is applied by Turkey) doesn't allow aircraft carriers into the Black Sea. That's why all Russian vessels that carry aircraft are totally aircraft carrying cruisers and not aircraft carriers at all. It's also why they are less than 15,000 tons.
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Old 29th November 2018, 07:54 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Camillus View Post
The Montreux Convention (or the way it is applied by Turkey) doesn't allow aircraft carriers into the Black Sea. That's why all Russian vessels that carry aircraft are totally aircraft carrying cruisers and not aircraft carriers at all. It's also why they are less than 15,000 tons.
Lol, yeah totally not an aircraft carrier. Also its way, way more than 15,000 tons.


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Old 29th November 2018, 07:57 AM   #60
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Way, way more. At its absolute lightest the Kuznetsov is well over 40,000 tonnes.
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Old 29th November 2018, 08:29 AM   #61
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Was the Kuz ever intended to transit the Bosphorous, though?
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Old 29th November 2018, 08:30 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Was the Kuz ever intended to transit the Bosphorous, though?
Only once, it was constructed in the Ukrainian SSR so had to transit once on route to its base with the Northern Fleet.
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Old 29th November 2018, 08:32 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Camillus View Post
The Montreux Convention (or the way it is applied by Turkey) doesn't allow aircraft carriers into the Black Sea. That's why all Russian vessels that carry aircraft are totally aircraft carrying cruisers and not aircraft carriers at all. It's also why they are less than 15,000 tons.
Interesting link, I never thought of cruisers as Capital Ships.

Nice to note that that last time the USSR really pushed against foreign access to a straight in that part of the world, the end result was Turkey joining NATO. Putin may be doomed to repeat history.
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Old 29th November 2018, 09:13 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Yeah, I know it is kinda hyperbolic, but my point is that it would be interesting to see how the Russians responded to a perfectly legitimate visit by someone they didn't feel like they could bully with the same impunity.

On second thought, having said that, maybe the U.S. isn't the best choice.

Does Liechtenstein* have a navy?


(* Yes, I know. They have the distinction of being one of the only two double-landlocked countries. They're still probably more likely than Trump to face Putin down. )
Why does this always have to be about Trump? I suppose a "friendly" visit by NATO forces was exactly what was intended, when the US and its allies undertook to guarantee Ukrainian sovereignty after they gave up their nuclear arsenal to the newly-minted Russian Federation. But I don't recall anyone making disparaging comparisons to Liechtenstein when Obama washed his hands of that commitment a few years back - right at the moment of truth, when that commitment was first invoked, and when its fulfillment was most desperately needed.
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Old 29th November 2018, 09:38 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why does this always have to be about Trump? I suppose a "friendly" visit by NATO forces was exactly what was intended, when the US and its allies undertook to guarantee Ukrainian sovereignty after they gave up their nuclear arsenal to the newly-minted Russian Federation. But I don't recall anyone making disparaging comparisons to Liechtenstein when Obama washed his hands of that commitment a few years back - right at the moment of truth, when that commitment was first invoked, and when its fulfillment was most desperately needed.
I honestly don't know where you are coming from with your comment on Liechtenstein, one of the smallest most insignificant countries in the world.

Anyways, we are the worlds only superpower, and our president isn't doing much at all. That said could the EU/NATO do more? Probably, but no one is going to risk war with a nuclear power over some far off distant country (Ukraine). It just isn't going to happen. I'm pretty sure Russia is going to annex the Ukraine. Putin is calculating how bad any sanctions put on him versus the rewards of taking it over. Its going to have a knock on effect of no one ever giving up their nuclear weapons program again, and perhaps some countries start a new one. Good grief if N Korea can do it, it can't be all that hard.
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Old 29th November 2018, 10:04 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I honestly don't know where you are coming from with your comment on Liechtenstein, one of the smallest most insignificant countries in the world.
Depending on what incident he's refering to, commitment are commitments.
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Old 29th November 2018, 10:08 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I honestly don't know where you are coming from with your comment on Liechtenstein, one of the smallest most insignificant countries in the world.
You honestly don't know? I thought quadraginta explained his Liechtenstein reference quite clearly in the post I replied to. The post I quoted in my reply. My reply which you apparently didn't actually read. Did you honestly not notice that I'd quoted another post? Did you honestly not think to read the post I quoted, in order to better understand the parts that were confusing to you?
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Old 29th November 2018, 10:14 AM   #68
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I too, despite googling, have no idea what commitment Obama made to Liechtenstein that he failed to follow though on.
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Old 29th November 2018, 10:16 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I too, despite googling, have no idea what commitment Obama made to Liechtenstein that he failed to follow though on.
"I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a post."

- Charles Babbage, probably.
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Old 29th November 2018, 10:24 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a post."

- Charles Babbage, probably.
Could you just link me to the story?

Or can anyone link me to the story? My googling fails to find anything at all.
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Old 29th November 2018, 10:28 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a post."

- Charles Babbage, probably.
Would it not have been quicker to actually answer the question? Three posters have indicated that they don't know what's being refered to.
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Old 29th November 2018, 11:31 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Would it not have been quicker to actually answer the question? Three posters have indicated that they don't know what's being refered to.
Jesus Christ.

Okay.

The topic of commitments to Liechtenstein never actually came up. lobrosul5 and 3point14 appear to have badly misread this post and this post. As a result, they've gotten entirely the wrong idea of what's actually being discussed. That conversation seemed perfectly clear to me, including the aside about Liechtenstein, which makes complete sense in context. I'm at a loss to explain how lobrosul5 and 3point14 could so badly misunderstand something so obvious. And I'm at a loss to correct that misunderstanding, except to say "go back and re-read the goddamn posts in question."
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Old 29th November 2018, 11:32 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Could you just link me to the story?

Or can anyone link me to the story? My googling fails to find anything at all.
Here's your link:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post12517995

Be sure to read the quoted part as well as the response.

HTH. HAND!
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Old 29th November 2018, 11:35 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Would it not have been quicker to actually answer the question?
It is often easier to dance to someone else's tune. It's not always desirable.
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Old 29th November 2018, 11:45 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It is often easier to dance to someone else's tune. It's not always desirable.
If you think having a conversation and answering other people's honest questions is "dancing to their tune", then there's not much reason in having a conversation with you, is there?
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Old 29th November 2018, 11:46 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Jesus Christ.

Okay.

The topic of commitments to Liechtenstein never actually came up. lobrosul5 and 3point14 appear to have badly misread this post and this post. As a result, they've gotten entirely the wrong idea of what's actually being discussed. That conversation seemed perfectly clear to me, including the aside about Liechtenstein, which makes complete sense in context. I'm at a loss to explain how lobrosul5 and 3point14 could so badly misunderstand something so obvious. And I'm at a loss to correct that misunderstanding, except to say "go back and re-read the goddamn posts in question."
Thank you!


Okay, now...

Breathe...


Count backwards from ten, pray to whatever gods you believe in for the strength to fight this injustice and then, if can, in the face of such adversity, keep calm and carry on.



(My favourite bit is the graciousness with which you deal with the failings of others.)
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Old 29th November 2018, 01:02 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Thank you!


Okay, now...

Breathe...


Count backwards from ten, pray to whatever gods you believe in for the strength to fight this injustice and then, if can, in the face of such adversity, keep calm and carry on.



(My favourite bit is the graciousness with which you deal with the failings of others.)
My sincere condolences on your failings.

But perhaps you can help me understand better what went wrong. What part of my post gave you the impression that quadraginta and I were discussing commitments to Liechtenstein? I thought the whole thing was pretty clear, but if I somehow misstated something, I'd like to know it. Thanks in advance.
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Old 29th November 2018, 01:39 PM   #78
3point14
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My sincere condolences on your failings.
My thanks, I have many.

Quote:
But perhaps you can help me understand better what went wrong. What part of my post gave you the impression that quadraginta and I were discussing commitments to Liechtenstein? I thought the whole thing was pretty clear, but if I somehow misstated something, I'd like to know it. Thanks in advance.

This sentence:

But I don't recall anyone making disparaging comparisons to Liechtenstein when Obama washed his hands of that commitment a few years back - right at the moment of truth, when that commitment was first invoked, and when its fulfillment was most desperately needed.

Appears to stand alone, and, taken alone, seems to imply some failure of Obama's in relation to a commitment towards Liechtenstein.

I realise now that's it's linked to the previous sentence. I didn't then. Enitely my failing, I accept.
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Old 29th November 2018, 01:47 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
My thanks, I have many.




This sentence:

But I don't recall anyone making disparaging comparisons to Liechtenstein when Obama washed his hands of that commitment a few years back - right at the moment of truth, when that commitment was first invoked, and when its fulfillment was most desperately needed.

Appears to stand alone, and, taken alone, seems to imply some failure of Obama's in relation to a commitment towards Liechtenstein.

I realise now that's it's linked to the previous sentence. I didn't then. Enitely my failing, I accept.
It's also linked to quadraginta's mention of Liechtenstein, which explains quite clearly what he means, and which I quoted in my reply. Is there something I could have done to make that connection clearer?

Because it seems like one of your failings here was not actually taking the time to read my post (including the quoted material from quadraginta). And that seems kind of rude, to me.
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Old 29th November 2018, 01:55 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's also linked to quadraginta's mention of Liechtenstein, which explains quite clearly what he means, and which I quoted in my reply. Is there something I could have done to make that connection clearer?

I think so, yes. If I were marking it for clarity, I'd have marked it down.


Quote:
Because it seems like one of your failings here was not actually taking the time to read my post (including the quoted material from quadraginta). And that seems kind of rude, to me.
It does? Perhaps. When it happens to me, I just assume it's an error and repeat my point, possibly with more clarity if required. I could find you a recent example of this beaviour if you like?

Actually, no, I won't. This derail is done.
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