ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags LGBT issues , transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgenderism

Reply
Old 27th November 2018, 04:26 PM   #1
Tsukasa Buddha
Other (please write in)
 
Tsukasa Buddha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NeverLand
Posts: 14,910
NYT Op-Ed: "My New Vagina Won’t Make Me Happy" - It's bad.

It's really bad.

Quote:
Next Thursday, I will get a vagina. The procedure will last around six hours, and I will be in recovery for at least three months. Until the day I die, my body will regard the vagina as a wound; as a result, it will require regular, painful attention to maintain. This is what I want, but there is no guarantee it will make me happier. In fact, I don’t expect it to. That shouldn’t disqualify me from getting it.
Linky.

It only gets worse from here, but I want to get this out of the way. A neovagina is not like an open wound. The body isn't going to heal it shut. It's a bizarre piece of misinformation.

I think the point of the essay, and why the NYT published it, was to counter "medical gatekeeping". She is rejecting what she describes as the conservative narrative that trans people are mentally ill and should be prevented from transitioning, but also the liberal narrative that trans people are helped by transitioning so as to alleviate gender dysphoria.

But then things go off the rails:

Quote:
Buried under all of this, like a sober tuber, lies an assumption so sensible you’ll think me silly for digging it up. It’s this: People transition because they think it will make them feel better. The thing is, this is wrong.

I feel demonstrably worse since I started on hormones. One reason is that, absent the levees of the closet, years of repressed longing for the girlhood I never had have flooded my consciousness. I am a marshland of regret. Another reason is that I take estrogen — effectively, delayed-release sadness, a little aquamarine pill that more or less guarantees a good weep within six to eight hours.

Like many of my trans friends, I’ve watched my dysphoria balloon since I began transition. I now feel very strongly about the length of my index fingers — enough that I will sometimes shyly unthread my hand from my girlfriend’s as we walk down the street. When she tells me I’m beautiful, I resent it. I’ve been outside. I know what beautiful looks like. Don’t patronize me.

I was not suicidal before hormones. Now I often am.
Then she circles back to her main argument:

Quote:
The medical maxim “First, do no harm” assumes that health care providers possess both the means and the authority to decide what counts as harm. When doctors and patients disagree, the exercise of this prerogative can, itself, be harmful. Nonmaleficence is a principle violated in its very observation. Its true purpose is not to shield patients from injury but to install the medical professional as a little king of someone else’s body.

Let me be clear: I believe that surgeries of all kinds can and do make an enormous difference in the lives of trans people.

But I also believe that surgery’s only prerequisite should be a simple demonstration of want. Beyond this, no amount of pain, anticipated or continuing, justifies its withholding.

Nothing, not even surgery, will grant me the mute simplicity of having always been a woman. I will live with this, or I won’t. That’s fine. The negative passions — grief, self-loathing, shame, regret — are as much a human right as universal health care, or food. There are no good outcomes in transition. There are only people, begging to be taken seriously.
If anything, I am coming away from this essay worried that there isn't enough medical gatekeeping.

A lot of people in trans spaces are questioning if she is even trans, which is usually not acceptable at all.

For a deeper dive, we can look at her other writings. It is immediately clear that there are two main things she talks about when it comes to being trans, and they yet again are things that give ammo to her opposition.

First, the fetish angle. She wrote an essay entitled Did Sissy Porn Make Me Trans? VICE interviewed six trans people and while the rest generally described feeling free to be themselves, she gives this answer:

Quote:
I didn’t transition to “be” a girl; I transitioned because I wanted all the cool **** girls were getting that I wasn’t—like the girls’ sleepover, which in my mind was this exciting, intimate, erotic affair that involved lots of secrets and touching. Sometimes very well-meaning cis women tell me, “Well, those sleepovers weren’t all they were cracked up to be,” and I say, “You’re missing the point: I don’t want the thing you think I think you had but which you actually didn’t have, I want the way in which you didn’t have it."
Linky.

Next, the political angle. We have from her Twitter:

Quote:
this is important bc i would bet good money that not only are there plenty of trans women who experienced male privilege before transition, but also many of them, esp those exposed to feminism, transitioned as a way to *atone* for that privilege
Linky.

Someone replied: Uhh I really don’t think anyone is reading Judith Butler and then being like “I’m so complicit in patriarchy, better take estrogen”

To which she responded:

Quote:
lol i literally did

the only sane response tbh
Linky.

For both angles in one, we have this article:

Quote:
The truth is, I have never been able to differentiate liking women from wanting to be like them.

...

It was in my junior year of college that I first read the SCUM Manifesto, crossing over the East River in a lonely subway car. It exhilarated me: the grandeur, the brutal polemics, the raw, succulent style of the whole thing. Solanas was cool. Rereading SCUM, I realized this was no accident.

...

This line took my breath away. This was a vision of transsexuality as separatism, an image of how male-to-female gender transition might express not just disidentification with maleness but disaffiliation with men. Here, transition, like revolution, was recast in aesthetic terms, as if transsexual women decided to transition, not to “confirm” some kind of innate gender identity, but because being a man is stupid and boring.
__________________
As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn
Tsukasa Buddha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 06:17 PM   #2
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,237
Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
A lot of people in trans spaces are questioning if she is even trans, which is usually not acceptable at all.

For a deeper dive, we can look at her other writings.
You obviously put time and effort into this post and I read most of the linked essays. It's hard to come up with a response.

I wouldn't want to be her surgeon.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 06:53 PM   #3
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 15,975
I'd love for them to find a physical cause for LGBT, it would put the debate to rest.

But it ain't going to happen. Meantime, I figure it is a mental disorder on a par with being a chronic over achiever or autism. Surgery does not help them either.
__________________
Great minds discuss ideas.
Medium minds discuss events.
Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 08:57 PM   #4
Lambchops
Muse
 
Lambchops's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Norvegr
Posts: 737
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I'd love for them to find a physical cause for LGBT, it would put the debate to rest.

But it ain't going to happen. Meantime, I figure it is a mental disorder on a par with being a chronic over achiever or autism. Surgery does not help them either.
Uh, you might want to edit your post. Do you seriously not know what "LGBT" stands for?

(Hint: This thread is about the "T", not the "LGB".) Learn some **** before you start spewing nonsense.
__________________
Need a good laugh? Click this link: https://www.reddit.com/r/beholdthemasterrace/

Last edited by Lambchops; 27th November 2018 at 08:59 PM.
Lambchops is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 09:29 PM   #5
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,237
I also was a bit taken aback at the description of autism as a mental disorder.

Or of being gay as a mental disorder.

Or of believing surgery has ever been claimed to be effective on overachievers.

Last edited by Minoosh; 27th November 2018 at 09:32 PM.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 09:34 PM   #6
Lambchops
Muse
 
Lambchops's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Norvegr
Posts: 737
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I also was a bit taken aback at the description of autism as a mental disorder.

Or of being gay as a mental disorder.

Or of believing surgery has ever been claimed to be effective on overachievers.
Yeah, that was kinda weird. To say the least.
__________________
Need a good laugh? Click this link: https://www.reddit.com/r/beholdthemasterrace/
Lambchops is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 09:38 PM   #7
Lambchops
Muse
 
Lambchops's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Norvegr
Posts: 737
"Anything I do not understand must be a mental disorder!"

__________________
Need a good laugh? Click this link: https://www.reddit.com/r/beholdthemasterrace/
Lambchops is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 09:41 PM   #8
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,237
She seems to think of surgery and hormones as self-harm, almost as penance to atone for her having benefited from male privilege in the past.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 09:47 PM   #9
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,361
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I also was a bit taken aback at the description of autism as a mental disorder.
Why? It's in the The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. I get that a lot of people don't like categorizing it as a disorder, but that's not exactly a new or fringe position.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 09:52 PM   #10
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,361
Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
I think the point of the essay, and why the NYT published it, was to counter "medical gatekeeping". She is rejecting what she describes as the conservative narrative that trans people are mentally ill and should be prevented from transitioning, but also the liberal narrative that trans people are helped by transitioning so as to alleviate gender dysphoria.
I think the best description I can come up with for the vibe I'm getting is this:
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 10:11 PM   #11
Lambchops
Muse
 
Lambchops's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Norvegr
Posts: 737
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I think the best description I can come up with for the vibe I'm getting is this:
https://memegenerator.net/img/images...hat-i-want.jpg
Stay classy, Zig.
__________________
Need a good laugh? Click this link: https://www.reddit.com/r/beholdthemasterrace/
Lambchops is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 10:30 PM   #12
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I'd love for them to find a physical cause for LGBT, it would put the debate to rest.

But it ain't going to happen. Meantime, I figure it is a mental disorder on a par with being a chronic over achiever or autism. Surgery does not help them either.
Wow, that's an echo of science in the 60s.

You have some reading to do to catch up to the science of the 21st century.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 10:31 PM   #13
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Uh, you might want to edit your post. Do you seriously not know what "LGBT" stands for?

(Hint: This thread is about the "T", not the "LGB".) Learn some **** before you start spewing nonsense.
That too.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 11:24 PM   #14
Ranb
Philosopher
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 9,370
From the quotes in the OP;
Quote:
Next Thursday, I will get a vagina.

I was not suicidal before hormones. Now I often am.
I think perhaps there should not be any surgery until this person no longer feels suicidal.

Ranb
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 11:26 PM   #15
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,237
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why? It's in the The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. I get that a lot of people don't like categorizing it as a disorder, but that's not exactly a new or fringe position.
It's a neurological issue. Maybe all "mental disorders" are.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2018, 11:28 PM   #16
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
From the quotes in the OP;

I think perhaps there should not be any surgery until this person no longer feels suicidal.

Ranb
I agree.

Mental illness can affect anyone, even people with other issues like gender identity.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 27th November 2018 at 11:31 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 06:09 AM   #17
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 15,975
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I agree.

Mental illness can affect anyone, even people with other issues like gender identity.
So you do see my point. Thanks.
__________________
Great minds discuss ideas.
Medium minds discuss events.
Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 06:35 AM   #18
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 76,412
Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
"Like many of my trans friends"
How would she have many? They're like, one in a thousand, if that. I have trouble finding red-haired people around me, and I live up north.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 07:05 AM   #19
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,178
I am Jack's neovagina.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 07:07 AM   #20
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 14,901
Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post

If anything, I am coming away from this essay worried that there isn't enough medical gatekeeping.
Why?
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 07:14 AM   #21
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 18,152
As a father of a trans teen, I know what my sons reaction will be to this ball of crap.

Nevertheless, I will present it without prejudice just to see what he makes of it.

Result to follow whenever he reads it.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 07:14 AM   #22
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,538
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why?
The author of the op-ed reminded me of your posts a lot.
Arguing that principles should be applied no matter the outcome, and arguing that stuff like happiness, success, viability and so on shouldn't play a part in our decision making process.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 07:41 AM   #23
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 14,901
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
The author of the op-ed reminded me of your posts a lot.
Arguing that principles should be applied no matter the outcome, and arguing that stuff like happiness, success, viability and so on shouldn't play a part in our decision making process.
Exactly
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 07:42 AM   #24
SuburbanTurkey
Muse
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 847
I would agree with Buddha that the op-ed author seems to have a lot of emotional complications surrounding her gender identity. Gender dysphoria, suicidal thoughts, fetishization, and radical gender politics all in a witches brew of self-doubt and unhappiness.

While her situation may be more complicated than most trans people, I expect most would have a pretty complicated set of emotions when it comes to gender dysphoria, self identity, and reassignment surgeries. I don't even know where someone would begin trying to establish any kind of psychological standard for gatekeeping this procedure, nor whether that is a good idea. I don't envy anyone in these situations.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 28th November 2018 at 08:29 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 07:43 AM   #25
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 46,637
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How would she have many? They're like, one in a thousand, if that. I have trouble finding red-haired people around me, and I live up north.
Have you tried actively seeking out the redheads, though? Gay people are a minority but we manage to find each other. By, you know, looking. Try your local redhead bar, or the sunscreen aisle in the drug store.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 08:09 AM   #26
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,496
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Have you tried actively seeking out the redheads, though? Gay people are a minority but we manage to find each other. By, you know, looking. Try your local redhead bar, or the sunscreen aisle in the drug store.
That's where I meet most of my bald friends, too.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 06:50 PM   #27
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 39,206
The story is a recursive loop into existentialist hell.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 07:32 PM   #28
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,361
Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
The story is a recursive loop into existentialist hell.
The Onion used to do these fake newspaper covers that were supposedly from decades ago. I remember one of them, supposedly from 1944, had a headline, "French playwright says that Hell is other French people".
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 08:39 PM   #29
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,237
Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
The story is a recursive loop into existentialist hell.
What a great way to put it. Contentment is always going to be out of reach.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 08:42 PM   #30
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 23,980
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I'd love for them to find a physical cause for LGBT, it would put the debate to rest.
Isn’t there a theory that it is largely explained by exposure to testosterone in the womb, and that this can account for not only sexual preference but also to other phenotypes typically thought common to the opposite sex?
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 08:54 PM   #31
phunk
Illuminator
 
phunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,854
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How would she have many? They're like, one in a thousand, if that. I have trouble finding red-haired people around me, and I live up north.
Ok so one in a thousand... then how many live in NYC, where she lives? Do you think people with something in common, something which also alienates them from others, might seek each other out?
phunk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2018, 10:23 PM   #32
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,575
Originally Posted by phunk View Post
Ok so one in a thousand... then how many live in NYC, where she lives? Do you think people with something in common, something which also alienates them from others, might seek each other out?
There are only so many pro basketball players in the world, and yet, somehow, ten of them have managed to find one another right here in the middle of this arena!
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2018, 12:19 AM   #33
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,166
Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
For both angles in one, we have this article:

Quote:
The truth is, I have never been able to differentiate liking women from wanting to be like them.

...

It was in my junior year of college that I first read the SCUM Manifesto, crossing over the East River in a lonely subway car. It exhilarated me: the grandeur, the brutal polemics, the raw, succulent style of the whole thing. Solanas was cool. Rereading SCUM, I realized this was no accident.

...

This line took my breath away. This was a vision of transsexuality as separatism, an image of how male-to-female gender transition might express not just disidentification with maleness but disaffiliation with men. Here, transition, like revolution, was recast in aesthetic terms, as if transsexual women decided to transition, not to “confirm” some kind of innate gender identity, but because being a man is stupid and boring.

I was curious about the date of that article since it reminded me of one of the episodes of American Horror Story: Cult (2017). The article is from 2018!
I think that the writer may have been inspired by the two self-hating gay characters in Cult rather than by the actual SCUM Manifesto.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2018, 09:00 AM   #34
Armitage72
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,310
Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
It only gets worse from here, but I want to get this out of the way. A neovagina is not like an open wound. The body isn't going to heal it shut. It's a bizarre piece of misinformation.

You mean "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" isn't a documentary?
Armitage72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2018, 09:07 AM   #35
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 30,410
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
What a great way to put it. Contentment is always going to be out of reach.
That's not quite right, though. It's true that there seems to be no limit to human desire, and that even people who have "everything" still want something more. But this person is describing a deep and sickening sense of *lack* that goes far beyond the healthy human experience of (partial) contentment.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2018, 09:18 AM   #36
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,005
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How would she have many? They're like, one in a thousand, if that. I have trouble finding red-haired people around me, and I live up north.
But they're not entirely randomly distributed across the world. Trans people like many groups who aren't looked on too fondly by conservative America, flock to cities like NYC. And within those cities, trans people, like other marginalized groups, concentrate around things like the arts and political activism. I run in similar social circles and have a lot more gay and trans friends and aquaintences than the national average would suggest.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2018, 09:27 AM   #37
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 5,508
Gotta give credit to OPs for delivering on their titles lately.
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2018, 09:30 AM   #38
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 14,966
Being a transperson myself, and having numerous trans friends in various states of transitioning or non-transitioning, I'd have to say that this person, assuming this person is who and what she says she is, has some serious mental issues that are not even remotely related to her being or not being transgender. Transpeople can suffer from any mental disorder that cispeople can, and this appears to be one of those cases.

I say appears to be, because I'm not necessarily convinced that this person is who she says she is. This entire thing reads like a page from the TERF conspiracy theory manual. She hits nearly all of their anti-trans propaganda points -- trans is just a mental illness, transwomen are only looking to invade female spaces, transpeople are "turned" trans rather than being born trans, GRS is nothing but genital mutilation and hormone therapy is inevitably damaging and not valid treatment, and so on. Her reference to Solanas kind of cements this view.

The options I see are:

1) She's trans, but has a lot of unrelated mental issues, and likely some internalized-oppression issues.
2) She's not trans, but has an untreated mental disorder that has her seriously confused about who and what she is.
3) She's a TERF, or a useful idiot spewing TERF anti-trans propaganda, trying to discredit transpeoples' experiences.

I'm leaning heavily toward 3 at this time, but the other two are equally likely.

What I do know is that there will be a whole lot of TERFs, religious nutjobs, and other anti-trans crusaders who will hold her up as epitomizing all transpeople and being typical of trans experience.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

Last edited by luchog; 29th November 2018 at 09:33 AM.
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2018, 09:36 AM   #39
pharphis
Graduate Poster
 
pharphis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,764
It really does read like a strawperson. I don't normally think such a possibility is worthy of consideration, though. Weird
pharphis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2018, 10:11 AM   #40
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 30,410
We seem to be dangerously close to accusing the New York Times of publishing fake news.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:37 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.