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Old 28th November 2018, 05:06 PM   #41
bignickel
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Reminds me of training officers as "experts" on recognizing drug impairment.

https://www.11alive.com/article/news...r/85-437061710
Wow, that link really made me angry this morning.

The witchfinder has returned.

Besides Georgia , are there any other states that I should avoid that indulge in such legal shenanigans?
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Old 28th November 2018, 05:21 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Field testing kits are notoriously inaccurate, and dogs alert whenever their handlers tell them to.
So why the heck aren't lawyers, even Pub Defs, rocking up to court at the bail hearings and dropping a copy of the paperwork on the judge saying that the prosecution don't even have a case because the Field testing kits are so notoriously inaccurate that they can't be considered evidence of cause? Are lawyers in the US that bad at their jobs?
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Old 28th November 2018, 05:24 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Reminds me of training officers as "experts" on recognizing drug impairment.

https://www.11alive.com/article/news...r/85-437061710
Reward for best trained: what do you want to bet that includes arresting innocent people who drug test negative but take plea bargains to end the mess?
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Old 28th November 2018, 05:25 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
So why the heck aren't lawyers, even Pub Defs, rocking up to court at the bail hearings and dropping a copy of the paperwork on the judge saying that the prosecution don't even have a case because the Field testing kits are so notoriously inaccurate that they can't be considered evidence of cause? Are lawyers in the US that bad at their jobs?
US Lawyers are excellent at defending defendants who can afford excellent defense.
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Old 28th November 2018, 05:25 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
So why the heck aren't lawyers, even Pub Defs, rocking up to court at the bail hearings and dropping a copy of the paperwork on the judge saying that the prosecution don't even have a case because the Field testing kits are so notoriously inaccurate that they can't be considered evidence of cause? Are lawyers in the US that bad at their jobs?
Some public defenders, yes, and some of them don't have the needed time to spend on any one case.
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Old 28th November 2018, 05:27 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Field testing kits are notoriously inaccurate, and dogs alert whenever their handlers tell them to.
Come on, the dogs are not Clever Hans, their skills have been well documented.
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Old 28th November 2018, 05:32 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Old cotton candy doesn't look "cottony" and instead looks like a colored crystalline glob. That can happen pretty quickly depending on the ambient temperature and humidity.
I doubt the cops ever see uncut cocaine but if anyone is curious, I have. They used to actually mix a 10% solution as a local anesthetic decades ago. It looks like white glitter, very pretty.
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Old 28th November 2018, 05:35 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I previously lived along a major North-South interstate highway that was a popular trucking route, both for legal and illegal goods. The state and local police would occasionally make a big show of force doing drug enforcement, making big press releases about all the drugs seized and arrests made.

I found the whole thing pretty gross. I'd see them digging through people's cars and luggage on the side of the road in the early hours of the morning or late at night. Bunch of guys in their dress up gear, tactical vests and blacked out SUV's with dogs. I passed family of four on the side of the road they left with their many suitcases open on the road shoulder for them to pack back up after they didn't find anything.

Real American heroes, that lot.
Once I was in a car that was stopped with friends as a teen. There were no drugs, we did all look like there could have been but the trumped up excuse for the stop was bald tires. They literally removed the back bench seat and left it on the sidewalk when they were done.
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Old 28th November 2018, 06:36 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Reminds me of training officers as "experts" on recognizing drug impairment.

https://www.11alive.com/article/news...r/85-437061710
Originally Posted by bignickel View Post
Wow, that link really made me angry this morning.

The witchfinder has returned.

Besides Georgia , are there any other states that I should avoid that indulge in such legal shenanigans?
All of them, unfortunately.

A few years ago, I rear-ended a Prius* which stopped suddenly for a pedestrian while I was somewhat distracted by a tiny house** under construction along the road. The local LEO's, for no reason I can think of, decided I was drunk at 11:00AM. They then told me I was wanted on DUI warrant from my former county (hadn't got my license change yet) and handcuffed me. That was a blatant lie, of course. Eventually the State Patrol arrived, gave me a breath test, and told the locals "He blew zeroes" while giving the locals a "you idiots" look. They then made up a story about someone having the exact same name and birth year from the same county having a birthdate one digit off and let me go.
This is probably one of the most liberal communities in the country and I'm an old white guy. The cops just lied through their teeth. Imagine what it's like elsewhere, for other people.

*I live in Priusville. They are everywhere, although being partially replaced by Teslas and Leafs. Don't rear-end a Prius, the Fire Department has to come disconnect the battery in a big hurry.

**As I said, I live in Priusville.

I'm kind of sad that I can't trust the police for anything anymore.
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Old 28th November 2018, 10:23 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
A little off topic - Seems you can't "untrain" a cannabis dog. All these dogs in Canada are now being retired to a life of leisure
It's not just Canada. Dogs in US states with legal pot are losing their jobs. I take some comfort from those stories since it indicates there were properly trained dogs that weren't just finding "drugs" when the handler wanted them found.
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Old 28th November 2018, 11:48 PM   #51
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Just for the heck of it, I googled the manufacturer of the test. My guess is that this is the product the cops had. Note this in the description:

Quote:
When a predictable color or series of colors occur within a specific testing sequence, a positive confirmation may be presumed. Presumptive identification is generally recognized within our legal system as a component of probable cause. There is no drug identification system presently in use which completely eliminates the occurrence of false positives and false negatives. A forensic laboratory is required to qualitatively identify an unknown substance.
Sounds a little bit like the lab is intended to give the cops probable cause. But if the test is so poor that it gives a false positive on cotton candy, then it is arguable that it is worse than useless. I did think this detail was rather odd:

Quote:
They asked the driver if they could search the vehicle and soon found "a large, open clear plastic bag which contained a light blue substance, spherical in shape," in the car's floorboards, the lawsuit says.
What does "in the car's floorboards" mean? Does it mean under the car's floorboards? Then I would not be surprised that the cops were very suspicious. If it means under one of the seats it's a little less suspicious, but still odd. Lying on the floorboards in the back of the car, quite a bit less suspicious.
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Old 29th November 2018, 12:39 AM   #52
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Old 29th November 2018, 01:28 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
The maker of the "field test kit" should pay lots of damages too. Of course, the two and a half month delay in testing the "evidence", the two week delay in releasing her after getting negative results and the lack of proper medical care are all on government entities.
There's a few things that we can't verify that could change the view about the failed field test. It is certainly within the realms of possibility that the police just lied and the test didn't come back positive, or that the police tested a "planted" sample I. E. They added the drug. We know that the police do such things.
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Old 29th November 2018, 02:42 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
What does "in the car's floorboards" mean? Does it mean under the car's floorboards? Then I would not be surprised that the cops were very suspicious. If it means under one of the seats it's a little less suspicious, but still odd. Lying on the floorboards in the back of the car, quite a bit less suspicious.
My car has a couple of storage compartments under the floorboards in the back as standard. It's an extremely useful place for leaving things like the wheel jack, the first aid kit, a torch, bits and pieces that wouldn't fit into a convenient space when packing to go away on holiday, stuff you want to leave in the car for a short time and don't want to attract the attention of thieves (even if it's worth bugger all, a smashed window isn't), and things that you want to get home without the kids seeing them. I would submit that the item in question may plausibly fall into the last category.

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Old 29th November 2018, 05:41 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
So why the heck aren't lawyers, even Pub Defs, rocking up to court at the bail hearings and dropping a copy of the paperwork on the judge saying that the prosecution don't even have a case because the Field testing kits are so notoriously inaccurate that they can't be considered evidence of cause? Are lawyers in the US that bad at their jobs?
Courts have ruled that tests and drug dogs, which have demonstrated accuracy worse than a coin flip, are adequate to establish probable cause.

These $2 divining rods may not be enough evidence to convict someone of anything, but they are enough to establish probable cause, place a person under arrest, and generally screw up your life.

The police are looking for legal pretense to conduct a search. Inaccuracy is a feature, not a bug.
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Old 29th November 2018, 07:01 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
All of them, unfortunately.
I guess I should be more specific : which states can a cop arrest you solely because in his opinion, youíre under the influence (with no failed test)?
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Old 29th November 2018, 07:05 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by bignickel View Post
I guess I should be more specific : which states can a cop arrest you solely because in his opinion, youíre under the influence (with no failed test)?
That's a distinction without difference. Under a standard Field Sobriety Test their opinion is the test and they are notoriously unreliable.
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Old 29th November 2018, 07:18 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's a distinction without difference. Under a standard Field Sobriety Test their opinion is the test and they are notoriously unreliable.
A sober driver should refuse a FST. They can likely require a breathalyzer or even draw blood for ABV chemical analysis, which is preferable for accuracy. This is all depending on local laws, of course. In MA, you can't be compelled to take a FST, but refusing a chemical analysis when under arrest for DWI is a separate offense.

I would not trust my future liberty on the results of the extremely subjective FST.
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Old 29th November 2018, 07:34 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by bignickel View Post
I guess I should be more specific : which states can a cop arrest you solely because in his opinion, youíre under the influence (with no failed test)?
Why all of them. The cop might get a reprimand for violating your rights(unlikely) but what are you going to do to stop them?
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Old 29th November 2018, 11:36 AM   #60
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Meth is crystalline, like sugar, right? Could it be spun into a cotton-like substance like sugar?
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Old 29th November 2018, 12:07 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
What does "in the car's floorboards" mean? Does it mean under the car's floorboards? Then I would not be surprised that the cops were very suspicious. If it means under one of the seats it's a little less suspicious, but still odd. Lying on the floorboards in the back of the car, quite a bit less suspicious.
It's just bad writing and in two ways.

First, it should say "on" instead of "in". Secondly, it should say "floorboard" instead of "floorboards".

The statement doesn't inform anyone of where the baggie was found other than that it was somewhere on the floor.
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Old 30th November 2018, 05:42 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Just for the heck of it, I googled the manufacturer of the test. My guess is that this is the product the cops had.
Anomalies amongst contents:

2- NARK2001-1 Marquis Reagent (Opium Alkaloids)

2- NARK20011-1 Mecke’s Reagent (All Heroin)

2- NARK20015-1 Sodium Nitro Prusside Reagent (Methamphetamine, MDMA)

Both Marquis and Mecke can be used for amphetamines and MDMA, so at least one of the above is redundant. In fact, most reagents can be used for multiple substances. I suspect this is all a ploy to padd out the kit contents and hence the price.

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Old 30th November 2018, 07:32 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Confused* What do these cops thing meth is?
Essentially a very complicated compounding procedure from scratch done by people with little to no technical learning on the subject , improper equipment, and often a substituted precursor or two, leading to an end result that has a huge variation in color, texture, smell and consistency.

But your zinger was essentially " **** da police" so why be accurate? Facts are only important if we are the ones under fire.

Great example of how a real answer gets buried under someone's bias.
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Old 30th November 2018, 02:53 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
A sober driver should refuse a FST. They can likely require a breathalyzer or even draw blood for ABV chemical analysis, which is preferable for accuracy. This is all depending on local laws, of course. In MA, you can't be compelled to take a FST, but refusing a chemical analysis when under arrest for DWI is a separate offense.

I would not trust my future liberty on the results of the extremely subjective FST.
I'll have to look it up, but I think in my state refusing to be tested is essentially a guilty plea to DUI.
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Old 30th November 2018, 02:58 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
A sober driver should refuse a FST. They can likely require a breathalyzer or even draw blood for ABV chemical analysis, which is preferable for accuracy. This is all depending on local laws, of course. In MA, you can't be compelled to take a FST, but refusing a chemical analysis when under arrest for DWI is a separate offense.

I would not trust my future liberty on the results of the extremely subjective FST.
It's not something I would have known until now. Why refuse when you know you are not high? And to get a blood draw requires the cop take you to an ED to get it drawn.That's a hassle if you aren't high.
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:17 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's not something I would have known until now. Why refuse when you know you are not high? And to get a blood draw requires the cop take you to an ED to get it drawn.That's a hassle if you aren't high.
Because the test is highly subjective and the person giving the test has already decided that you are probably high or they wouldn't be giving the test. So, either way you are heading for more testing, but you will be noted as failing the FST, which may give them reasonable grounds to search your vehicle.

If you refuse the FST then they may have to get more people involved and it is more likely that one of those people will realize that you are not in fact high.

Once the cop has decided you are probably high your night/day/weekend/week is over. Stop worrying about that and worry about not making it worse.
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:41 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Because the test is highly subjective and the person giving the test has already decided that you are probably high or they wouldn't be giving the test. So, either way you are heading for more testing, but you will be noted as failing the FST, which may give them reasonable grounds to search your vehicle.

If you refuse the FST then they may have to get more people involved and it is more likely that one of those people will realize that you are not in fact high.

Once the cop has decided you are probably high your night/day/weekend/week is over. Stop worrying about that and worry about not making it worse.
But my point was, I wouldn't think the cop was going to think I was high if I wasn't.

Obviously now that I know about this that's no longer true.
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:53 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's not something I would have known until now. Why refuse when you know you are not high? And to get a blood draw requires the cop take you to an ED to get it drawn.That's a hassle if you aren't high.
It wouldn't be a hassle if it let your blood alcohol level drop before the blood test.
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Old 1st December 2018, 11:43 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
A sober driver should refuse a FST. They can likely require a breathalyzer or even draw blood for ABV chemical analysis, which is preferable for accuracy. This is all depending on local laws, of course. In MA, you can't be compelled to take a FST, but refusing a chemical analysis when under arrest for DWI is a separate offense.

I would not trust my future liberty on the results of the extremely subjective FST.
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'll have to look it up, but I think in my state refusing to be tested is essentially a guilty plea to DUI.
"Implied consent", it's called.
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Old 1st December 2018, 11:48 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
"Implied consent", it's called.

That refers to consent for (and consequences of refusal of) an actual chemical test, though. Not a subjective roadside assessment.

ETA: Here in MA, for instance, refusing a Breathalyzer test is an automatic 6 month license suspension (first offense). There are no legal consequences for refusing a field sobriety test. The latter refusal cannot even be presented as evidence if you go to trial for OUI.

However, it appears some MA lawyers recommend taking the field sobriety test if you are in fact under the influence and want to get away with it. That's because they're so unreliable that they can be questioned in court, and that can cast doubt on the officer's original assessment. For instance if you have a medical condition that affects your balance, that can be spun to explain why you failed the FST and that it prejudiced the officer against you. That's harder to argue if you refused the test. (Hard to see how it would help if subsequent blood or breath tests established an illegal BAC though.)

If you're actually sober might refusing the FST help you in some way? Doesn't seem likely, but it doesn't appear it would doom you either.
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Old 1st December 2018, 01:01 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I discover that there are a suprising number of videos on the internet with this narrative. A refusal to allow a search of the vehicle is met with 'you want me to get the dog' and an implicit threat of a four hour wait followed by the arrival of a dog desperate to please its handler.
Reminds me of the time we got pulled over for impeding traffic (having been previously T-boned I took 3 extra seconds because people often run caution lights) the officer asked the four of us to roll up our windows and 'stay in the car'! It was 91 degrees out while we waited for dogs to show up 45 mins later. Finally we were taken out only to have the dog give its 'alert' to the presence of.... 3 test kits later... and that little bag of crumbs they collected from under and between the car seats turned out to be nothing but cookie crumbs. Still got a ticket though. But I beat that after explaining to the judge why I hesitate on green lights.
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Old 1st December 2018, 01:46 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
So why the heck aren't lawyers, even Pub Defs, rocking up to court at the bail hearings and dropping a copy of the paperwork on the judge saying that the prosecution don't even have a case because the Field testing kits are so notoriously inaccurate that they can't be considered evidence of cause? Are lawyers in the US that bad at their jobs?
Because the kind of people brought up on charges for this are typically not the type of people who can hire their own attorneys and public defenders are often not very good at defending.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Come on, the dogs are not Clever Hans, their skills have been well documented.
I canít tell if youíre being sarcastic or not. If not, Iím sure the dogs are capable of detecting drugs, but being dogs they also look to their humans for their cues on what theyíre expected to do. If the cop wants to have probable cause the dog will be a good dog and give it to him.
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Old 1st December 2018, 02:03 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm kind of sad that I can't trust the police for anything anymore.
Because you are more aware than you used to be, not because cops used to be better.
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Old 1st December 2018, 08:08 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by bignickel View Post
Wow, that link really made me angry this morning.

The witchfinder has returned.

Besides Georgia , are there any other states that I should avoid that indulge in such legal shenanigans?
Quote:
Officer Carroll:*"You're going to jail, ma'am. Okay? I don't have a magical drug test that I can give you right now."

"But he just did the 'magical drug test' that resulted in your arrest," Keefe said.
Good gravy.
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Old 1st December 2018, 08:24 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Come on, the dogs are not Clever Hans, their skills have been well documented.
Yes and they are not nearly as accurate as people think.

NPR
Wrong More Often Than Right

Quote:
The Chicago Tribune sifted through three years worth of cases in which law enforcement used dogs to sniff out drugs in cars in suburban Chicago. According to the analysis, officers found drugs or paraphernalia in only 44 percent of cases in which the dogs had alerted them.

When the driver was Latino, the dogs were right just just 27 percent of the time.

.....

The Tribune spoke to a few dog experts and they almost universally blamed the handlers:

Dog handlers can accidentally cue alerts from their dogs by..... [yada yada]
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Old 3rd December 2018, 06:12 AM   #76
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Additional thoughts on the bunk FST. Many times sobriety is tested after a car crash to determine if either driver was intoxicated. Concussion or whiplash symptoms could easily present as similar to intoxication and cause a failure of the FST. Dilated eyes, poor eye tracking, bad balance, poor coordination, confusion, etc. Hell, even post-adrenaline jitters could be construed as intoxication. It's incredibly non-specific.

If I know I'm innocent of being intoxicated, I don't see any benefit in engaging in a test that I know could easily provide false evidence against me.

Spending a few hours having blood drawn sounds better than having to hire an attorney to defend me against an DUI charge that would not have occurred had I not participated in a FST.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 06:17 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's not something I would have known until now. Why refuse when you know you are not high? And to get a blood draw requires the cop take you to an ED to get it drawn.That's a hassle if you aren't high.
That's the point. They know most people aren't going to go through the hassle of blood test, so they "volunteer" for the FST.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 06:19 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Essentially a very complicated compounding procedure from scratch done by people with little to no technical learning on the subject , improper equipment, and often a substituted precursor or two, leading to an end result that has a huge variation in color, texture, smell and consistency.

But your zinger was essentially " **** da police" so why be accurate? Facts are only important if we are the ones under fire.

Great example of how a real answer gets buried under someone's bias.
Yes the idea that it should take less than 3 months to tell the difference between meth and cotton candy really shows my anti-police bias.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 10:02 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
One of the most common forms of "alert" is for the dog to sit. They actively move around sniffing and then suddenly just stop and sit.

The Canadian dogs are going to do a lot of sitting if the odor is everywhere.
There is an article in a recent NY Times discussing this. Apparently wide-scale layoffs are in store for both Canadian and USA sniffer dogs as more locations legalize pot. My understanding is also that most of the dogs were trained to detect any of a series of illegal substances, not just pot, using the same type of alert and it is unlikely they can easily be retrained to specifically ignore pot. An entire new generation of sniffer dogs will need to be retrained if they wish to continue to use dogs to detect other, still illegal drugs.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 10:04 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'll have to look it up, but I think in my state refusing to be tested is essentially a guilty plea to DUI.
In most states, refusing a blood or breath test will result in an automatic license suspension, but refusing a field sobriety test won't. I am by no means familiar with the laws in all 50 states, so I won't say that that refusing a FST is a good idea everywhere.

OTOH, refusing a FST may well lead the cop to conclude you are drunk and arrest you. Though you may well ultimately be acquitted, being arrested and having to fight a drunk driving charge will still suck, and likely cost you a lot of money in attorney fees. IMO, it's pretty much a coin flip as to whether you should go through a FST or refuse it.
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