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Old 2nd December 2018, 08:04 AM   #121
angrysoba
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There was a good article (IOW, I agreed with it!) in the Graun, by Kenan Malik.

He grew up as an Asian kid in the 1970s:

Quote:
I cannot recall ever being “waterboarded”. But nor can I recall many days when, as a schoolboy, I did not return home without a bruised lip or a bloodied nose. Sometimes, I got a hiding at home too. “You should know better than to get into a fight.”

Not getting into a fight was not, however, a choice in 70s Britain. Not if you were Asian in an age in which “Paki-bashing” was almost a national sport.

...
Quote:
The incident raises questions about attitudes to refugees. It raises questions, too, about the role of social media. ... It can also distort perceptions. It is easy to regard such incidents as expressive of everyday life in Britain. One of the reasons they are so shocking, though, is that Britain has changed so much from the nation of my childhood.
Quote:
Social media exposure can also lead to people piling on to individuals, including children. The alleged racist has received death threats and his family forced to leave their house. It’s easy to say: “He’s a racist, he deserves what he gets.” But however nasty the assault, do we really want to encourage the corrosive effects upon public space and civic life of social-media-driven mobs?
Quote:
We are witnessing, too, the emergence of a culture in which it is acceptable passively to record deplorable acts to share online rather than actively to intervene to aid the victims.
But he does argue that there have been politicians who are now issuing the moral banalities about this being an appalling act, who may themselves bear some responsibility for the climate that has led to it happening:

Quote:
Ellwood serves in a government led by a prime minister who, as home secretary, celebrated the creation of a “hostile environment” for migrants considered illegal. Her policy nurtured a climate of suspicion in which people were deemed guilty unless they could prove themselves innocent. It dragooned teachers and doctors and landlords to act as auxiliary immigration officers. It created an environment that incubated the Windrush scandal. And one that nurtures the hostility to refugees that sometimes spills over into violence.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ed-by-rascists
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Old 2nd December 2018, 10:37 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
There was a good article (IOW, I agreed with it!) in the Graun, by Kenan Malik.

He grew up as an Asian kid in the 1970s:

But he does argue that there have been politicians who are now issuing the moral banalities about this being an appalling act, who may themselves bear some responsibility for the climate that has led to it happening:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ed-by-rascists
Bullies target anybody weaker than themselves for any perceived difference, whether it be skin colour, appearance, weight, height, mannerisms or intelligence. Bullying needs to be dealt with but not like this. Pakistani gangs raped young girls in Huddersfield for decades without the police or council lifting a finger, but the instant a schoolboy is bullied they jump into action.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 04:54 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Bullies target anybody weaker than themselves for any perceived difference, whether it be skin colour, appearance, weight, height, mannerisms or intelligence.
No doubt, but so what? It doesn't mean that racist incidents don't happen. The article is specifically saying that as a society racist incidents have become much rarer and that society has become rightly less tolerant of it.

Originally Posted by baron View Post
Bullying needs to be dealt with but not like this.
Which is what the article writer says too!

Originally Posted by baron View Post
Pakistani gangs raped young girls in Huddersfield for decades without the police or council lifting a finger, but the instant a schoolboy is bullied they jump into action.
Okay, now you are changing the subject. Or is there an implication that there is a link here? Who is this "they" anyway?
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Old 3rd December 2018, 02:55 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No doubt, but so what? It doesn't mean that racist incidents don't happen. The article is specifically saying that as a society racist incidents have become much rarer and that society has become rightly less tolerant of it.
Society has in general become less tolerant of all bullying. Being bullied because of race is not somehow worse than being bullied because of a disability or for any other reason.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Which is what the article writer says too!

Okay, now you are changing the subject. Or is there an implication that there is a link here? Who is this "they" anyway?
Of course there is a link, because I'm talking about the reaction. A kid is the subject of a bullying event (a very minor one, I might add, although I admit it looks like it was the latest in a string of incidents). What happens?

The moment the evidence comes to light the perpetrator, who was 15 at the time, is arrested and charged. A group of 30 Muslims, unrelated to the child and led by the local imam, protest outside the school. The council sends representatives to meet with them, together with the head teacher and two persons on the board of governors. There is international news coverage. £200K is raised for the victim and his family.

Consider now, in the very same town, Pakistani Muslim gangs raped hundreds of young girls with impunity for over two decades. The police did nothing. The council did nothing. Did we see protests in support of these girls by local Muslims led by the imam? Did we buggery. How much money was raised for these young white girls who were repeatedly raped and brutalised by Pakistani men? That would be nothing. We saw nothing.

If that doesn't tell you something I don't know what to say.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 06:24 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Society has in general become less tolerant of all bullying. Being bullied because of race is not somehow worse than being bullied because of a disability or for any other reason.
That's true enough.

Originally Posted by baron View Post
Of course there is a link, because I'm talking about the reaction. A kid is the subject of a bullying event (a very minor one, I might add, although I admit it looks like it was the latest in a string of incidents). What happens?

The moment the evidence comes to light the perpetrator, who was 15 at the time, is arrested and charged. A group of 30 Muslims, unrelated to the child and led by the local imam, protest outside the school. The council sends representatives to meet with them, together with the head teacher and two persons on the board of governors. There is international news coverage. £200K is raised for the victim and his family.

Consider now, in the very same town, Pakistani Muslim gangs raped hundreds of young girls with impunity for over two decades. The police did nothing. The council did nothing. Did we see protests in support of these girls by local Muslims led by the imam? Did we buggery. How much money was raised for these young white girls who were repeatedly raped and brutalised by Pakistani men? That would be nothing. We saw nothing.

If that doesn't tell you something I don't know what to say.
I've already agreed with you that the reaction to the video is an over-reaction. In every way. That is also something the writer said.

That's the nature of viral videos though. That people react way out of proportion to individual incidents is well-known.

And if a bunch of imams turned up at my door to moralize to me, I would tell them where they can stick their claims to moral authority.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 06:37 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Being bullied because of race is not somehow worse than being bullied because of a disability or for any other reason.
Yeah the doucheturds of the world will always find a reason to be doucheturds. That's a truism basically. The fear of "the other" almost certainly is built into the human psyche at a very, very base level.

If everyone was the same race we'd fight over hair color if everyone was the same hair colored we'd fight over height if everyone was the same height we fight over attached versus detached earlobes if there was just one human alive alone in a room he'd headbutt the mirror for looking at him funny.

But none of that means "Factors that cause hatred aren't factors." Some reasons to dislike other people have a more problematic history and more potential to go very, very bad than others.

In other words when Star Trek fans enslave Star Wars fans and go to war over the right to keep doing it and create an entire underclass out of them... we can worry about that to the same degree. It hasn't, so we don't. This ain't that hard.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 06:41 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
People can discuss what they want but my question is the one I posed; "The primary question... is whether the coverage and outcomes of this incident are conducive to making people more or less sympathetic towards racism."
Ok I hadn't understood that from the OP or title.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 07:33 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
That's true enough.

I've already agreed with you that the reaction to the video is an over-reaction. In every way. That is also something the writer said.

That's the nature of viral videos though. That people react way out of proportion to individual incidents is well-known.
Indeed, but there's a distinction to be made. I don't want to vilify anybody who chipped in with £10 for the family, they no doubt mean well, but when the school and the police and the council - allegedly professional bodies - get in on the act, especially considering their lack of action as described above - that's where the real issue lies.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
And if a bunch of imams turned up at my door to moralize to me, I would tell them where they can stick their claims to moral authority.
And that's exactly what the school should have done as soon as 30 grown men appeared at the school gates making demands. "No, we won't discuss issues involving our children with you. No, we won't tolerate you hanging around the school gates intimidating the children, and if you continue to do so we will call the police."

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah the doucheturds of the world will always find a reason to be doucheturds. That's a truism basically. The fear of "the other" almost certainly is built into the human psyche at a very, very base level.

If everyone was the same race we'd fight over hair color if everyone was the same hair colored we'd fight over height if everyone was the same height we fight over attached versus detached earlobes if there was just one human alive alone in a room he'd headbutt the mirror for looking at him funny.

But none of that means "Factors that cause hatred aren't factors." Some reasons to dislike other people have a more problematic history and more potential to go very, very bad than others.
That might be so for some groups but bullying is an individual issue. The victim doesn't feel better because they have history on their side (and other groups have suffered far more than black people in Europe in recent history).

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
In other words when Star Trek fans enslave Star Wars fans and go to war over the right to keep doing it and create an entire underclass out of them... we can worry about that to the same degree. It hasn't, so we don't. This ain't that hard.
We should worry about all of it to the same degree. In the town where I used to attend sixth form a young girl was stamped to death by a gang for being a Goth. You go explain to her parents how they should be grateful her skin colour played no part.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 07:47 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
You go explain to her parents how they should be grateful her skin colour played no part.
You know damn well that's not what anyone is arguing.

The difference "Goths" never got systematically enslaved. Stop pretending like that doesn't change the landscape.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 08:07 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Indeed, but there's a distinction to be made. I don't want to vilify anybody who chipped in with £10 for the family, they no doubt mean well, but when the school and the police and the council - allegedly professional bodies - get in on the act, especially considering their lack of action as described above - that's where the real issue lies.
Sure, and to accept that premise that people in responsibility should know better, is to also accept the premise that politicians have a duty to be careful how they characterize refugees and other immigrants.

There is a distinction to be made then, in how the government treats disabled people and refugees. If we saw a rise in bullying of people who are refugees coinciding with anti-refugee rhetoric, the answer is not to shrug it off with bullies gonna bully.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 3rd December 2018, 08:07 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You know damn well that's not what anyone is arguing.

The difference "Goths" never got systematically enslaved. Stop pretending like that doesn't change the landscape.
So explain in what way it changes the landscape, rather than just asserting it. What practical difference does it make? Is there a ranking table of how seriously we should treat bullying dependent on the attributes of the victim?
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Old 3rd December 2018, 08:11 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Sure, and to accept that premise that people in responsibility should know better, is to also accept the premise that politicians have a duty to be careful how they characterize refugees and other immigrants.

There is a distinction to be made then, in how the government treats disabled people and refugees. If we saw a rise in bullying of people who are refugees coinciding with anti-refugee rhetoric, the answer is not to shrug it off with bullies gonna bully.
I don't see evidence of such a connection. These kids don't sit and listen to Theresa May in their spare time and even if they did they're hardly likely to adopt her and her cronies as role models. The link is pure rhetoric devised for political ends, and of course to sell newspapers.

And for the record, disabled people are treated far worse than refugees in this country.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 02:31 PM   #133
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It is much more productive than dismissing accusations of racism out of hand, and orders of magnitude better than being a denialist that hand-waves evidence of systemic racism and blames the victims of racism. The presence of accusations of racism that turn out to be false and over-reactions to accusations of racism in no way justify or support concluding racism wasn't a factor in other events, nor make specific conclusions on specific cases not idiotic/worthy of condemnation.

Note that at no point did I argue here that false accusations and over-reactions to accusations or racism are great or acceptable, but they are so far behind actual racists and denialists as far as harm goes that all comparisons of such are going to end up being false equivalencies.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 02:48 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
We should worry about all of it to the same degree. In the town where I used to attend sixth form a young girl was stamped to death by a gang for being a Goth. You go explain to her parents how they should be grateful her skin colour played no part.
I have thought for some time that if anything constituted a hate crime, it was that, but obviously as far as the law was/is framed, it wasn't.
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Old 8th December 2018, 11:18 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Which one?
I'm sorry, I thought I was clear. I was referring to what you referred to as the "real question", which was who is funding these media outlets and why.
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Old 8th December 2018, 11:28 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I'm sorry, I thought I was clear. I was referring to what you referred to as the "real question", which was who is funding these media outlets and why.
I'll ask again. What conspiracy theory are you talking about?
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Old 8th December 2018, 11:55 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I'll ask again. What conspiracy theory are you talking about?
The conspiracy that would have been revealed by answering that "real quesiton" of yours.

I don't think I can make it more clear than that. It was, after all, your own statement.
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Old 8th December 2018, 12:44 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The conspiracy that would have been revealed by answering that "real quesiton" of yours.

I don't think I can make it more clear than that. It was, after all, your own statement.
I'll ask a third time. What conspiracy theory are you talking about?
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Old 8th December 2018, 12:47 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Okay, now you are changing the subject. Or is there an implication that there is a link here?

Racism is now so unacceptable that racists feel a need to justify themselves.
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Old 8th December 2018, 12:51 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Racism is now so unacceptable that racists feel a need to justify themselves.
What about child rape apologists? Easy question for you.
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Old 8th December 2018, 12:54 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
What about child rape apologists? Easy question for you.

I don’t approve of either. And I haven’t invoked one to justify the other.
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Old 8th December 2018, 08:27 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I don’t approve of either. And I haven’t invoked one to justify the other.
Nothing makes rape victims feel better than their suffering being used to handwave racism.
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Old 9th December 2018, 02:54 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Nothing makes rape victims feel better than their suffering being used to handwave racism.
I'm still waiting for evidence of this racism. I have a feeling none will be forthcoming as 'some people' are happy to see child rape hidden behind the convenient smokescreen of racism, which worked well for 30 years but doesn't work any more.
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Old 9th December 2018, 03:12 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I'm still waiting for evidence of this racism.

We’re still waiting for evidence of “child rape apologists”.
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Old 9th December 2018, 03:22 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
We’re still waiting for evidence of “child rape apologists”.
I asked first. That's the way it works. And as you don't have any evidence, just your normal bilious accusations, you'll never get your question answered.
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Old 9th December 2018, 03:51 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I asked first. That's the way it works. And as you don't have any evidence, just your normal bilious accusations, you'll never get your question answered.

You mean “bilious accusations” like trying to equate those who don’t agree with your nasty little worldview as “child rape apologists”?
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Old 9th December 2018, 04:06 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
You mean “bilious accusations” like trying to equate those who don’t agree with your nasty little worldview as “child rape apologists”?
No, I'm talking about the usual crap you spout about people being racist. 'Put up or shut up.'
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Old 9th December 2018, 04:21 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
No, I'm talking about the usual crap you spout about people being racist. 'Put up or shut up.'

OK. In a discussion of bullying of Asian kids, someone sees the need to bring up “Pakistani gangs rap[ing] young girls”:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=122
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Old 9th December 2018, 04:50 AM   #149
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I have no idea about the facts surrounding this case, and whether or not the bully was a bully for bully reasons, or racism, or both. So I can only speak to bullying. Hate it. Last time I stepped in to stop a bully (case of two male adults, one much smaller), all I got for my efforts was a crowd around all three of us {egging on|excoriating} the bully. Not a single decent voice calling for calm, this in the middle of a main avenue in a wealthy area of Barcelona. I ended up feeling like a serial face slap delivered to the whole tribal crowd would have been in order, making me the bully. Jesus. Ended up handing off the whole scene to the police and retiring to my ruined evening.

As for immigrants, my heart goes out to the Africans. Not too many in my town, but those who are here keep to themselves and seem so devastatingly lonely. I've tried on several occasions to at least catch an eye so I can nod and smile a passing "good day," but no dice. Tragically, I think it is because around here so many new arrivals, especially if young, get picked up by older men who are wolves in sheep's clothing. So I've mostly given up; don't want to be taken for a sexual predator, OMG!! Shame, though. Just yesterday there was a young man in the coffee shop who was so invisible I did not see him come in or order, and only noticed him when leaving, alone and facing the wall, hunched over his coffee, looking about as forlorn as it gets. If you think racism in the US is bad, OMG, Europe takes the cake, and the whole wedding ceremony.
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Old 9th December 2018, 07:13 AM   #150
baron
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
OK. In a discussion of bullying of Asian kids, someone sees the need to bring up “Pakistani gangs rap[ing] young girls”:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=122
I'm still waiting. How is that racist? Are you disputing that the facts? Or do you think it's racist to contrast the behaviour of Huddersfield council in jumping to attention when a Muslim kid is pushed over, with their total inaction, and indeed cover-up, for 20 years whilst Muslims raped countless young white girls in the town?

People are wise to your game. You take your cue from people like Naz Shah, who re-tweeted that "Those abused girls in Rotherham and elsewhere just need to shut their mouths. For the good of diversity." So desperate is she to cover for child rapists that she didn't even consider that the original tweet might be a parody.
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Old 9th December 2018, 07:14 AM   #151
baron
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
As for immigrants, my heart goes out to the Africans. Not too many in my town, but those who are here keep to themselves and seem so devastatingly lonely. I've tried on several occasions to at least catch an eye so I can nod and smile a passing "good day," but no dice. Tragically, I think it is because around here so many new arrivals, especially if young, get picked up by older men who are wolves in sheep's clothing. So I've mostly given up; don't want to be taken for a sexual predator, OMG!! Shame, though. Just yesterday there was a young man in the coffee shop who was so invisible I did not see him come in or order, and only noticed him when leaving, alone and facing the wall, hunched over his coffee, looking about as forlorn as it gets. If you think racism in the US is bad, OMG, Europe takes the cake, and the whole wedding ceremony.
Who's being racist towards them?
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Old 9th December 2018, 08:28 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I'm still waiting. How is that racist? Are you disputing that the facts? Or do you think it's racist to contrast the behaviour of Huddersfield council in jumping to attention when a Muslim kid is pushed over, with their total inaction, and indeed cover-up, for 20 years whilst Muslims raped countless young white girls in the town?

No, I think it’s racist to bring up irrelevant bad things that have happened simply because the perpetrators happen to share a religion or ethnicity with the victim of the bullying.
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Last edited by Mojo; 9th December 2018 at 08:39 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 9th December 2018, 08:44 AM   #153
baron
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
No, I think it’s racist to bring up bad things that have happened simply because the perpetrators happen to share a religion or etnicity with the victim of the bullying.
If the ethnicity of the bullying victim hadn't have been a factor nobody would ever have known about this incident. There's nothing racist in demonstrating how the authorities' attitude and response varies so enormously based on race and / or religion. If you want to call racist then start with Huddersfield council.

I can just imagine you saying the same thing if the council had stood by whilst white men raped young Muslim girls for 20 years then jumped into action when a Muslim boy pushed over a white boy. Er, not so much. It would be a fight between the usual suspects to see who could post a 'Going to school whilst Muslim' thread first.
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Old 9th December 2018, 08:52 AM   #154
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The fact that you are unable to recognise your behaviour as racist is probably just a special case of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
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Old 9th December 2018, 08:55 AM   #155
baron
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
The fact that you are unable to recognise your behaviour as racist is probably just a special case of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Yeah, probably. Do you wish to apologise some more for child rapists or is that it for now?
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Old 9th December 2018, 09:00 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yeah, probably. Do you wish to apologise some more for child rapists or is that it for now?

I haven’t apologised for child rapists. Your insinuation that I have is a lie. It’s also begging the question, and probably poisoning the well.
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Old 9th December 2018, 04:01 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
If the ethnicity of the bullying victim hadn't have been a factor nobody would ever have known about this incident. There's nothing racist in demonstrating how the authorities' attitude and response varies so enormously based on race and / or religion. If you want to call racist then start with Huddersfield council.

I can just imagine you saying the same thing if the council had stood by whilst white men raped young Muslim girls for 20 years then jumped into action when a Muslim boy pushed over a white boy. Er, not so much. It would be a fight between the usual suspects to see who could post a 'Going to school whilst Muslim' thread first.
You're letting the ISF PC Police derail the discussion with distractions.
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Old 10th December 2018, 12:47 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
We’re still waiting for evidence of “child rape apologists”.
Look at all the defenders of the catholic church, tons of apologists there. Why just recently a court refused to name rapists because if they were known to rape kids like they did it would hurt their reputation.
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Old 11th December 2018, 04:56 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
You're letting the ISF PC Police derail the discussion with distractions.
Baron was the one who derailed the discussion with his own distraction. I was agreeing with him that this was an over-reaction when he suddenly asked about rape gangs.
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Old 11th December 2018, 05:54 AM   #160
baron
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Baron was the one who derailed the discussion with his own distraction. I was agreeing with him that this was an over-reaction when he suddenly asked about rape gangs.
Er, not quite. We were talking about the reaction of Huddersfield council to an allegation of ethnic based violence. It seems reasonable, then, to compare it to other reactions of Huddersfield council to ethnic-based violence.

Then, of course, as soon as you mention the rape gangs you're racist.
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