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Old 30th November 2018, 10:13 AM   #1
theprestige
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Interesting Essay on the Practicalities of Gun Confiscation

http://monsterhunternation.com/2018/...to-nuke-omaha/

He mostly focuses on the obvious point that lightly armed insurgencies can in fact resist global superpowers - drones, gunships, nukes, and all.

He also has this interesting aside:
... for most people on the left political violence is a knob, and they can turn the heat up and down, with things like protests, and riots, all the way up to destruction of property, and sometimes murder… But for the vast majority of folks on the right, it’s an off and on switch. And the settings are Vote or Shoot ******* Everybody.
It's a broad generalization, of course. Individual opinions will vary. But I do see the pattern on this forum. We have a lot of progressives here who are willing to turn the dial on political violence, all the way up to assault and murder (if the victim is a 'nazi'). Meanwhile, most of the conservatives here tend to argue that political violence should always be avoided. I think we tend to leave unsaid the other side of that coin - or else go all the way to armed revolt - because we don't see that the current political situation justifies flipping that switch.
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Old 30th November 2018, 10:40 AM   #2
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"Intersting essay" as in "hysterical opinion piece"?
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Old 30th November 2018, 10:47 AM   #3
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Has the author looked at a map?
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Old 30th November 2018, 10:50 AM   #4
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The writer of Monster Hunter Nation piece does seem a tad nuts.

Political violence is on/off, nothing/shoot-everyone for people on the right? Is that really fair? Sometimes they certainly do beat antifa with metal poles and such.
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Old 30th November 2018, 11:02 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's a broad generalization, of course. Individual opinions will vary. But I do see the pattern on this forum. We have a lot of progressives here who are willing to turn the dial on political violence, all the way up to assault and murder (if the victim is a 'nazi'). Meanwhile, most of the conservatives here tend to argue that political violence should always be avoided. I think we tend to leave unsaid the other side of that coin - or else go all the way to armed revolt - because we don't see that the current political situation justifies flipping that switch.
Interesting.

I see it as the conservatives here and even many of the centrists all are very happy with the current level of political violence going on and simply do what they can to obfuscate and/or downplay it, while simultaneously pretending that justified self-defense (like Antifa) is the "true danger" and "the real fascists" and other nonsense (would be 'other laughable nonsense' if it weren't so utterly tragic in how many people fall for it).
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Old 30th November 2018, 11:03 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
"Intersting essay" as in "hysterical opinion piece"?
Opinions vary.
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Old 30th November 2018, 11:15 AM   #7
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Is a 'nazi' still a 'nazi' if it is an actual self proclaimed Nazi?

Lots of strawmen there. We've got a few forum members who seem okay with some violence towards the self-avowed Nazis and White Supremacists who have been crawling out of the gutter of late. A few more who are pretty tolerant of property destruction during protests. But I don't recall any supporting murder of Nazis, except on the context of any actual civil war that were to occur.

And then there's gun confiscation, not supported by any major Gun Safety organization, not supported by the Democratic Party. it's like the ultimate strawman, albeit one supported by a tiny handful of politicians, vastly outnumbered by Flat earthers.

ETA: I mean, Gundamentalists blab about "Second Amendment Solutions" to democratic processes, and claim that they'll fight if anyone comes for der gunz. So they get ridiculed, justifiably so. "Confiscation" just seems a red herring to excuse the fact that far too many gun owners seem to excuse or parrot ideas about guns trumping democracy. Not the majority, but a significant minority of a very well-armed group.

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Old 30th November 2018, 11:26 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
"Second Amendment Solutions"
Aren't they just thinly veiled death threats?
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Old 30th November 2018, 11:52 AM   #9
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I think the leftists here need to take a look at the underlying assumption behind his "all or nothing" claim about violence from the right.

If this is true, then things like burning crosses on a person's lawn or fire-bombing their churches are not considered to be violence.

Well, that, or his whole point is whacked. Definitely one of those two.
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Old 30th November 2018, 12:27 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
I think the leftists here need to take a look at the underlying assumption behind his "all or nothing" claim about violence from the right.

If this is true, then things like burning crosses on a person's lawn or fire-bombing their churches are not considered to be violence.

Well, that, or his whole point is whacked. Definitely one of those two.

The thesis is that some on the right see political violence as a knob to be turned. Most on the right see it as a switch to be flipped, and prefer not to flip it if not absolutely necessary. These ratios are reversed on the left. This nuance, so strenuously ignored by you and others, is clearly spelled out both in the passage I quoted and in my commentary on it.

What advantage do you seek to gain, by arguing so dishonestly in this fashion?
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Old 30th November 2018, 12:41 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Most on the right see it as a switch to be flipped, and prefer not to flip it if not absolutely necessary.
So when there are protests with violence between Antifa and self-proclaimed Nazis and White Supremacists, what assumptions are you working on?

Have the Nazis and White Supremacists flipped the switch?
Or, do we assume that ALL of the violence is initiated by Antifa?
Or, do we assume that self proclaimed Nazis and White Supremacists and White Nationalists are not part of the "right"?

Because many of us are seeing quite a bit of violence FROM THE RIGHT. We're not in civil war, so it must not be the black and white scenario you're describing. The "Right" is also using and tolerating a continuum of violence, a dial that can be adjusted as suits the need.

ETA: When Trump encourages people at his rallies to "get a little" rough with protesters - has he flipped the switch?

Last edited by crescent; 30th November 2018 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 30th November 2018, 01:21 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
I think the leftists here need to take a look at the underlying assumption behind his "all or nothing" claim about violence from the right.

If this is true, then things like burning crosses on a person's lawn or fire-bombing their churches are not considered to be violence.

Well, that, or his whole point is whacked. Definitely one of those two.
Hello Horatius

I am pretty sure that the author would not consider burning crosses or firebombing churches “right wing” violence any more people on the left who would like to seriously limit gun ownership in the USA are willing to claim that they seriously endorse Representative Swalwell’s statement about the government nuking gun owners in an imagined civil war (I am assuming this is the statement that the essay talks about). While it may be fair to say most KKK members lean right, I don’t think it is accurate to say that most people who learn right support the KKK. This is like claiming that Liberals have to take ownership of the violence that Antifa perpetuates.

I think both the statement that of Representative Swalwell and Monster Hunter Nation’s statements are meant for the home team, but can easily be horriblized by the other side. The statement about violence for the right being a binary on-off thing was kind of weird though. Of course a Representative talking about the American military ending a civial war with nuclear weapons is also off. The way I read the statement of the switch by Monster Hunter, it sounds like a response by someone who feels threatened, a promise to escalate to violence if a line is crossed.

I wish both sides could pull back from talking about civil wars and nuking people, or speculating on who the Special Ops will come for when the trouble starts. We are all Americans (well at least those of us who are, and everyone is a citizen of the same little blue globe). Until the government actually starts trying to do away with the Bill of Rights it is too early to fantasize about how we will get the other side.
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Old 30th November 2018, 01:29 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
http://monsterhunternation.com/2018/...to-nuke-omaha/

He mostly focuses on the obvious point that lightly armed insurgencies can in fact resist global superpowers - drones, gunships, nukes, and all.

He also has this interesting aside:
... for most people on the left political violence is a knob, and they can turn the heat up and down, with things like protests, and riots, all the way up to destruction of property, and sometimes murder… But for the vast majority of folks on the right, it’s an off and on switch. And the settings are Vote or Shoot ******* Everybody.
It's a broad generalization, of course. Individual opinions will vary. But I do see the pattern on this forum. We have a lot of progressives here who are willing to turn the dial on political violence, all the way up to assault and murder (if the victim is a 'nazi'). Meanwhile, most of the conservatives here tend to argue that political violence should always be avoided. I think we tend to leave unsaid the other side of that coin - or else go all the way to armed revolt - because we don't see that the current political situation justifies flipping that switch.
You seem taken by what is a simplistic metaphor. Moreover, you apply the metaphor to people's postings on a forum which is not quite the same as how groups act in the real world. Lastly, you (or the article) provide no real arguement that this metaphor is in anyway true.
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Old 30th November 2018, 01:36 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
You seem taken by what is a simplistic metaphor. Moreover, you apply the metaphor to people's postings on a forum which is not quite the same as how groups act in the real world. Lastly, you (or the article) provide no real arguement that this metaphor is in anyway true.
But it frames lefties as condoning violence and righties as reluctant to be violent. That's a good thing, right? /s
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Old 30th November 2018, 01:58 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But it frames lefties as condoning violence and righties as reluctant to be violent. That's a good thing, right? /s
It appears to be the only thing.
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Old 30th November 2018, 02:01 PM   #16
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I think it's another useful demonstration on the fact that 'left' and right' are useless and devisive terms.

To attempt describe anyone's views on all of the complex social, economic, political and other views as a point on a line is ludicrous.
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:02 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
So when there are protests with violence between Antifa and self-proclaimed Nazis and White Supremacists, what assumptions are you working on?
That Antifa has the support of most leftists, who approve of them turning up the dial on political violence; and that the Nazis lack the support of most rightists, who disapprove of them turning up the dial on political violence.

ETA: TheNorseman assumes that the majority on the right, like the majority on the left, actually approve of treating political violence like a knob instead of a switch. I think he's mistaken.

I think that this thesis also explains why there's less outcry from the right about political violence from the right. We already don't approve of it, and we're already glad that it's only a tiny minority on the right who thinks otherwise. What concerns us is that we perceive that it's different on the left. We perceive that by and large, leftists see political violence very differently. We perceive that a majority actually condone this kind of thing. Certainly it seems to be the majority leftitst opinion on this forum.

Anyway, you know what I think of political violence. What do you think? Is it a knob or a switch?

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Old 30th November 2018, 03:08 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Opinions vary.
Indeed they do.
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:09 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That Antifa has the support of most leftists, who approve of them turning up the dial on political violence; and that the Nazis lack the support of most rightists, who disapprove of them turning up the dial on political violence.
Come on, there are very fine people, on both sides.
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:14 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Come on, there are very fine people, on both sides.
Very fine indeed. Except for those violent LEFTIST PROGRESSIVES THAT ADVOCATE COLD CLINICAL VIOLENCE AND DID I MENTION THEY ARE PROGRESSIVES FROM THE LEFT AND VERY VIOLENT UNLIKE CONSERVATIVES?
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Old 1st December 2018, 02:34 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That Antifa has the support of most leftists, who approve of them turning up the dial on political violence; and that the Nazis lack the support of most rightists, who disapprove of them turning up the dial on political violence.
Well, it would seem that your biggest problem is that you're not comparing like-for-like. Antifa is a broad umbrella term for wider spectrum of groups and individuals, mostly on the left; Nazis, by definition, are a specific extreme sub-set of the right.

You're also ignoring the fact that historically, whilst neither right nor left had a monopoly on political violence, it was overwhelmingly perpetrated spontaneously by the right, with only a minority on the part of the left, mostly reactive. One important factor is that right-wing groups would - and still do - turn up en masse to intimidate and attack specific communities, and often the police would stand by do nothing, unless they themselves were attacked directly. In contrast, left-wing demonstrations would be subject to over-bearing policing, with the latter swinging truncheons at the slightest provocation. Those on the right generally would often express approval of the police "breaking a few heads" in this manner.
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Old 1st December 2018, 03:46 AM   #22
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We need guns to maintain our freedom. Americans aren't going to be subjugated like Canadians, Swedes, Danes, Japs, Krauts, Kiwis, Dutch and all of you evil, no good Kangaroo-*******.
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Old 1st December 2018, 06:05 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Meanwhile, most of the conservatives here tend to argue that political violence should always be avoided. I think we tend to leave unsaid the other side of that coin - or else go all the way to armed revolt - because we don't see that the current political situation justifies flipping that switch.
Political violence like tear-gassing asylum seekers or invading/bombing other countries?

Never heard such drivel in my life.
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Old 1st December 2018, 06:25 AM   #24
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I gave a hard time taking someone seriously who classifies protests as "political violence".
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Old 1st December 2018, 07:24 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
He mostly focuses on the obvious point that lightly armed insurgencies can in fact resist global superpowers - drones, gunships, nukes, and all.
They can resist but can not win but for a lack of effort on part of the superpower.

Read up on the "cursed soldiers" in Eastern Europe after WW2. After the Soviet Union occupied their countries and began setting up communist client states there some right-wing soldiers refused to concede the inevitable and decided, often because they thought (rightfully or not) that they were going to be executed or mistreated by the Soviets anyway, to offer military resistance.

In the end they managed to accomplish nothing and spent the rest of their miserable lives in hiding until the Soviet security forces (and later, the new national forces) hunted them down, one after another, and shot them dead in their dank holes or simply arrested them.

The thought that a few fat ass redneck hicks are going to somehow hold-back the onslaught of the US military and federal law enforcement is a laughable fantasy.
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Old 1st December 2018, 09:12 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
... for most people on the left political violence is a knob, and they can turn the heat up and down, with things like protests, and riots, all the way up to destruction of property, and sometimes murder… But for the vast majority of folks on the right, it’s an off and on switch. And the settings are Vote or Shoot ******* Everybody.
It's a broad generalization, of course. Individual opinions will vary. But I do see the pattern on this forum. We have a lot of progressives here who are willing to turn the dial on political violence, all the way up to assault and murder (if the victim is a 'nazi'). Meanwhile, most of the conservatives here tend to argue that political violence should always be avoided. I think we tend to leave unsaid the other side of that coin - or else go all the way to armed revolt - because we don't see that the current political situation justifies flipping that switch.
If someone tells me that violence should be avoided, I will be believe them unless I have a specific reason not to. I assume that someone who avoids violence where possible will seek to limit it when it is unavoidable. I don't assume that they go totally psycho when cornered because they've been peaceful previously.
Individuals who go on killing sprees tend to have a history of violent behavior. It's rarely the calm, mild-mannered guys who suddenly snap.

That said, there may very well be something to the idea that, collectively, the contemporary right is more prone to radical extremism. You don't see left wing militias prepping for "civil war 2.0".
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Old 1st December 2018, 10:22 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That Antifa has the support of most leftists, who approve of them turning up the dial on political violence; and that the Nazis lack the support of most rightists, who disapprove of them turning up the dial on political violence.

ETA: TheNorseman assumes that the majority on the right, like the majority on the left, actually approve of treating political violence like a knob instead of a switch. I think he's mistaken.

I think that this thesis also explains why there's less outcry from the right about political violence from the right. We already don't approve of it, and we're already glad that it's only a tiny minority on the right who thinks otherwise. What concerns us is that we perceive that it's different on the left. We perceive that by and large, leftists see political violence very differently. We perceive that a majority actually condone this kind of thing. Certainly it seems to be the majority leftitst opinion on this forum.

Anyway, you know what I think of political violence. What do you think? Is it a knob or a switch?

This is hysterical.

Thank you for the laugh.
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Old 1st December 2018, 11:06 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The writer of Monster Hunter Nation piece does seem a tad nuts.
More puppy crap.
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Old 1st December 2018, 12:42 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
The thought that a few fat ass redneck hicks are going to somehow hold-back the onslaught of the US military and federal law enforcement is a laughable fantasy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff
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Old 2nd December 2018, 03:06 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
We need guns to maintain our freedom. Americans aren't going to be subjugated like Canadians, Swedes, Danes, Japs, Krauts, Kiwis, Dutch and all of you evil, no good Kangaroo-*******.
How's that working out for you?

13,000-plus deaths this year so far. You must be VERY free!

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
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Old 2nd December 2018, 03:10 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Probably because nobody was really interested in a replay of the gunfight at the OK corral. Just waited them out.

And it ended fine, didn't it.

Quote:
On February 10, 2016, Cliven Bundy traveled to Portland, Oregon, in response to federal law enforcement moving to end a standoff led by his sons Ammon and Ryan at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. He was arrested at the airport by the FBI and was incarcerated at the Multnomah County Jail. He was indicted for 16 federal felonies on February 17, along with Ammon and Ryan Bundy, militia leader Ryan Payne, and broadcaster Peter Santilli, who were already under arrest for their role in the Malheur standoff. Another 14 individuals were charged on March 3, 2016. Santilli subsequently pled guilty to felony conspiracy to injure or impede a federal officer.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 03:22 AM   #32
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post

The thought that a few fat ass redneck hicks are going to somehow hold-back the onslaught of the US military and federal law enforcement is a laughable fantasy.
Indeed, the only thing in their favour would be a lack of political will to annihilate a bunch of deluded idiots with extreme force.

The question with a superpower is not what they are capable of but how far are they willing to go to achieve their goals. And contrary to the OP it is usually those on the right who attempt to crank up that dial and encourage political violence against those who they deem enemies by the apparatus of the state.

And always couched in terms of protecting your freedoms. You see the good old boys marching with torches are just expressing their god given right to free speech while people like BLM are troublemakers that need to be locked up.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 04:19 AM   #33
GnaGnaMan
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
The thought that a few fat ass redneck hicks are going to somehow hold-back the onslaught of the US military and federal law enforcement is a laughable fantasy.
Is it, though?

Lincoln was killed by a confederate terrorist with a handgun. As far as that confederate was concerned, he had killed a tyrant. I modern terms, Lincoln was a radical SJW who had socialized most of the south's productive capital.
With Lincoln dead, a southern racist became president.

Confederate militias resisted the federal occupation. They had been defeated by the US military but they could easily kill black union veterans returning with their sidearms. They had no problems dealing with Republicans, the SJWs of the time.

That terror regime lasted for a century until the civil rights movement began dismantling it; arguably a still on-going process.

That lightly armed militias could resist the federal government is the historical experience of a significant part of the US.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 04:46 AM   #34
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Not only could citizens put up resistance, but the US Armed Forces are made up of citizens, many of whom would have a real problem with turning weapons on their own. Mutinies, factioning...it would be an ugly scenario, not a neat Govt v The People
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:12 AM   #35
GnaGnaMan
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not only could citizens put up resistance, but the US Armed Forces are made up of citizens, many of whom would have a real problem with turning weapons on their own. Mutinies, factioning...it would be an ugly scenario, not a neat Govt v The People
Yes, that is probably the major practical argument against the 2nd amendment.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 08:01 AM   #36
Thermal
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Yes, that is probably the major practical argument against the 2nd amendment.
Yes, but unless the people were armed, the problem of taking up arms against them is diminished to nil. They armed forces would simply be acting on orders peacefully, against an unresisting populace. Its the shoot-'em-up showdown scenario that would cause insurrection in the military ranks, I would think
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Old 2nd December 2018, 08:10 AM   #37
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Oh, and re: knob v switch: its a knob for anyone. Conservatives don't have some made-up idealogical exemption to that. Unless they are truly ticking-time-bomb sociopaths, of course.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 09:56 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That Antifa has the support of most leftists, who approve of them turning up the dial on political violence; and that the Nazis lack the support of most rightists, who disapprove of them turning up the dial on political violence.

ETA: TheNorseman assumes that the majority on the right, like the majority on the left, actually approve of treating political violence like a knob instead of a switch. I think he's mistaken.

I think that this thesis also explains why there's less outcry from the right about political violence from the right. We already don't approve of it, and we're already glad that it's only a tiny minority on the right who thinks otherwise. What concerns us is that we perceive that it's different on the left. We perceive that by and large, leftists see political violence very differently. We perceive that a majority actually condone this kind of thing. Certainly it seems to be the majority leftitst opinion on this forum.

Anyway, you know what I think of political violence. What do you think? Is it a knob or a switch?

Republican President Donald Trump celebrating violent criminal assault to the cheers of his Republican supporters.

Trump’s approval rating among Republicans remains in the mid to high 80s.

Tell me more about how the Right doesn’t approve of violence, theprestige.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 10:06 AM   #39
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The author is correct, it would be impossible to do any sort of meaningful seizure of guns in the USA.

It is one of the various reasons why the USA cannot solve its gun problem.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 10:43 AM   #40
The Great Zaganza
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The correct point at which to seize guns would be in case of death of the owner: there could be an automatic buyback scheme in place, that the rightful inheritor would have to apply for an exception of (together with a background check, of course).
This would dramatically reduce the number of (possibly ill-maintained and therefore dangerous to handle) firearms in the US.
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