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14th January 2018, 07:12 PM | #481 |
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We can simply look to our own experience, the mundane and day to day. Are we a parcel or unit of consciousness, moving about in a shared external brutish world? Is everything we’ve ever experienced, loved, despised; is everything about being a human life a running calculation occurring within the confines of our skull?
No, we are part of and intimate with the world. All the evidence we have shows the fundamental nature of consciousness-everything occurs within consciousness. There is no evidence of anything lying outside consciousness. Materialism is a model, and as with all models, it is not correct, it is not to be mistaken for reality. And like all models it has various degrees of utility. |
14th January 2018, 07:28 PM | #482 |
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Science cannot explain consciousness, therefore....consciousness remains unexplained.
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14th January 2018, 07:44 PM | #483 |
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Who’s having a really bad hair day then, with all that negative “mundane” and “brutish” view of life rant? If everything is created in your consciousness as you apparently claim, then the “mundane” and “external brutish world” is merely a figment of your own imagination. Why can’t you simply imagine a nicer world with plenty of peace, love and light? Can't be that hard. Heaps of others seem to be able to do it. I think it helps if you put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and go "La, la, la, la, la".
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15th January 2018, 03:17 AM | #484 |
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The above is just an expression of wilful ignorance and belief in the supernatural. It says that the correct answers will be known to us simply from what any of us can experience in our daily lives. If that were true then almost none of the many billions of things that science has discovered would have ever have been known ... we do not "experience" the molecular and atomic structure of things ... we are not aware of evolution taking place all around us ... your daily living experience would never have shown you anything at all about relativity or quantum effects or about galaxies and the age of the universe. Instead you would be doing what Larry does in all these threads, which is to claim that science is not discovering true explanations for anything, and that instead the true understanding is to believe that effects such as "consciousness" are caused by some sort of inexplicable supernatural agency that also tells us the universe has no reality except in an unreal human imagination. Frankly that's just a display of monumental anti-scientific ignorance and a self-indulgent belief in the supernatural (it's almost always part of a God belief … and that's a belief that arose entirely from an ancient world that was positively drowning in ignorance and superstition). |
15th January 2018, 04:49 AM | #485 |
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Some precisions:
Science cannot explain everything about consciousness then there are aspects of consciousness that are not scientifically explainable... now. Is there some reason why science is not able of explain some aspects of the consciousness? Can you consider another kind of explanation? |
15th January 2018, 05:38 AM | #486 |
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15th January 2018, 11:01 AM | #487 |
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15th January 2018, 12:04 PM | #488 |
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15th January 2018, 03:36 PM | #489 |
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15th January 2018, 04:51 PM | #490 |
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I have claimed none of these-I have not referenced the supernatural nor did I disparage or even mention science. All I claimed is that ‘matter as primary’ is a model, as I would also claim ‘consciousness as primary’ is also a model.
I would also claim these models are also a way of seeing (perceiving, thinking and being present). Consciousness as primary is the more authentic, natural way of seeing-and when folks feel alienated and separate from experience, feel like a brain living in an alien world, they nurture a way back to the intimacy of living in consciousness. |
15th January 2018, 04:57 PM | #491 |
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15th January 2018, 06:27 PM | #492 |
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15th January 2018, 06:44 PM | #493 |
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15th January 2018, 08:11 PM | #494 |
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solipsism, so soon? Usually the high priests of Materialism play the solipsism card when they’ve completely run out of ideas.
The butterfly dream sequence was a bit desperate-don’t ya think? |
15th January 2018, 09:02 PM | #495 |
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15th January 2018, 09:13 PM | #496 |
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You can make a model out of anything being primary.
Shrimp is primary. A shrimpness field pervades the universe that enables us to experience shrimp. It also explains why evolution of life on earth tended toward generating shrimp in the first place, as well as why we evolved intelligence and language so as to be able to understand and appreciate shrimp. In fact everything is actually a form of shrimp, but our limited brains are incapable of recognizing the shrimp nature of most things. The question isn't whether such concepts are models, but whether they're useful for anything. |
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16th January 2018, 03:56 AM | #497 |
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"Matter" is not a "model". “Matter” is just a word that humans invented in language. It's just a word that refers to the all the things we detect around us (animals detect all the same things too ... in fact, so do plants). That's not a "model" in the sense of anyone saying "lets assume there are such things as solid objects, liquids, gases, ... everything" ... we are not merely "assuming" it or "proposing" it, instead it's simply everything that "exists" ... and what we mean by "exists" is all of that which we ever detect. I have no idea what the second highlighted paragraph is supposed to mean at all. It sounds as if it's just an attempt to make-up a load of tenuous phrases so as to avoid the fact that all humans, all animals and plants, and even all inanimate "material” objects, also detect all the same things in the world around us. But I think you have posted here many times before to support the usual philosophical objection that says “our understanding of the world comes to us only from using our senses and our brain, and that sensory system (inc. the brain) might be producing a completely false impression of everything”. However there are several very obvious problems with any such philosophical claim - 1. It's completely frivolous and in fact is nothing more than saying that if science cannot absolutely prove things as a 100% certainty, then it's perfectly reasonable for philosophers to claim that everything is quite likely to be totally untrue. 2. If philosophers make any such claim of saying our brain and senses might be fooling us in any significant way, then their suggestion/claim is utterly worthless until they show good evidence for that claim – they have to show that the universe is indeed not at all the way that science says it is ... and there's only one way to do that - they have to publish genuine research papers in the science research journals, to show that the theories of science are wrong ... but so far no philosopher has ever been able to do that ... so far the score is several million scientific papers explaining the universe in huge detail vs. philosophers alternative/objecting papers precisely None!... not a single one. 3. Philosophers must explain how it could ever be possible for any thinking intelligent animal (e.g. even inc. advanced aliens) to use any other method than a brain to determine the nature of the universe … what does the philosopher propose as an alternative to a brain? … and how is any alternative free from the same objections? |
16th January 2018, 04:01 AM | #498 |
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16th January 2018, 04:22 AM | #499 |
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16th January 2018, 05:22 AM | #500 |
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16th January 2018, 05:39 AM | #501 |
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16th January 2018, 06:02 AM | #502 |
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If consciousness is the prime component of reality, then why can't we affect the world through thought alone?
And why does the apparently illusory material world produce reliable predictable results? That no amount of focusing, thinking, meditating or being conscious can affect in any perceivable way? And if you say that's because it's part of our overarching shared consciousness and we have to obey consciousness' rules, then what you have is materialism by another name. |
16th January 2018, 06:16 AM | #503 |
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16th January 2018, 06:24 AM | #504 |
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I just noticed the above sentence in your earlier post. That above claim is completely wrong. In fact it's the precise & complete opposite of the actual situation. It is completely untrue to say that any evidence at all shows that "everything occurs within consciousness". On the contrary, all known evidence shows that everything is taking place outside your consciousness! All that is happing in your so-called "consciousness", i.e. in your brain chemistry, is a reconstructed/pictured/sensed awareness of everything that is taking place outside of your brain! Lets put that more simply - when you look into the sky at night and see all sorts of stars and planets, it is certainly untrue for you to claim that those stars and planets exist only in your "consciousness" i.e. just as a figment of your imagination. To the contrary - all known evidence shows that your mind/imagination/consciousness is simply reproducing a visual image of stars, planets, and a night sky in a universe that exists outside of and entirely independently of any human brain. That's what all the known evidence shows. And that's what's shown as the evidence in every scientific paper ever published. What has never been shown, and never been published in any scientific paper, is the opposite situation which you just claimed, where all events in this universe only happen in the human mind/brain/consciousness, and not in any other external reality at all. |
16th January 2018, 06:40 AM | #505 |
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Thoughts arise in consciousness as any other experience, they hold no special powers or capacity. Yes, I’ve stated many times that the materialism model has utility. And yes, consciousness as primary is similar to a matter as primary model. The question is which model best describes your human experience, is your life a sequence of brain states, a discreet parcel of consciousness; or, is your experience a seamless integrated whole, where everything occurs in consciousness?
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16th January 2018, 07:06 AM | #506 |
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Introducing extra layers of reality that could complicate things, but miraculously work just like the simpler model, justified by wishful thinking because you feel like you're a spirit. Is that really all you have? All your haughty comments in every consciousness thread amount to this?
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16th January 2018, 07:09 AM | #507 |
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On the other side of the equation, sometimes when I'm not really thinking about anything and I zone out, I lose the feeling of 'specialness' that the 'self' usually offers. Seems to indicate that the feeling of being an observer separate from the world is just an illusion that can be turned off at times.
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16th January 2018, 08:50 AM | #508 |
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16th January 2018, 09:06 AM | #509 |
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16th January 2018, 09:25 AM | #510 |
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It's only more complex in contrast to naive solipsism. If you're disclaiming solipsism, then you need to explain persistence and consistence of perception between different times and observers. If we go to the the same zoo, why do you see the same elephants (and the same zoo) that I do? Matter is one explanation, which adds elements (and elephants). Any alternative model must also add elements (whether those include elephants or not). Unless, of course, it fails to acknowledge and explain the same observations materialism does; but in that case, its simplicity is no advantage. |
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16th January 2018, 10:55 AM | #511 |
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Originally Posted by abaddon
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A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN |
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16th January 2018, 11:00 AM | #512 |
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16th January 2018, 11:06 AM | #513 |
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16th January 2018, 11:51 AM | #514 |
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Ian, what you are describing is one interpretation of the evidence
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16th January 2018, 02:25 PM | #515 |
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Solipsism / idealism notwithstanding it is generally accepted that reality is mind independent. But this cannot be demonstrated because
all knowledge and experience about reality is filtered through the mind. There is no mind independent testable hypothesis which can be conducted to show that reality is mind independent. This does not mean it is not mind independent just that it cannot be demonstrated But the best arguments in favour of mind independence are that everyone experiences the same objective reality rather than their own individual subjective realities. Also that the observable Universe existed for over 99.99 per cent of its existence before humans evolved |
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16th January 2018, 04:29 PM | #516 |
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I can’t imagine any other kind of explanations of consciousness that are worthy of any serious consideration. You and some others imply (at the very least) that there are other kinds of non-scientific methods that offer other kinds of explanations of consciousness, and imply (at the very least) that they are worthy of serious consideration. You and those others NEVER define what those methods or explanations are however.
So yes, I’m definitely giving you and some others “the ball back” to explain what those methods and explanations are. A fair and appropriate request. Your turn . . . |
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16th January 2018, 05:35 PM | #517 |
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16th January 2018, 05:48 PM | #518 |
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16th January 2018, 06:54 PM | #519 |
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Well, his sarcastic comment was a bit off, but so was the absurd physics in the analogy you made that he was being sarcastic about. "A gravitational field exists independently of mass." Cite please? "As soon as you remove the mass..." How do you do that, exactly? You can move the mass, which alters the gravitational field. (Current theory holds that those changes propagate at the speed of light, as gravity waves; perhaps you've heard of those.) You can also change some of the mass to energy. That in and of itself (until the energy moves, in which case see previous paragraph) has no effect at all on the gravitational field. General Relativity says energy has the same gravitation as the equivalent amount (E/C2) of mass. If you know a way to make mass-energy vanish, or generate a gravitational field independent of mass, you should indeed receive a Nobel prize. |
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16th January 2018, 07:26 PM | #520 |
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