IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , consciousness

Reply
Old 14th January 2018, 07:12 PM   #481
LarryS
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,351
We can simply look to our own experience, the mundane and day to day. Are we a parcel or unit of consciousness, moving about in a shared external brutish world? Is everything we’ve ever experienced, loved, despised; is everything about being a human life a running calculation occurring within the confines of our skull?
No, we are part of and intimate with the world. All the evidence we have shows the fundamental nature of consciousness-everything occurs within consciousness.
There is no evidence of anything lying outside consciousness.
Materialism is a model, and as with all models, it is not correct, it is not to be mistaken for reality. And like all models it has various degrees of utility.
LarryS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2018, 07:28 PM   #482
Toontown
Philosopher
 
Toontown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,595
Science cannot explain consciousness, therefore....consciousness remains unexplained.
__________________
"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump
Toontown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2018, 07:44 PM   #483
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
We can simply look to our own experience, the mundane and day to day. Are we a parcel or unit of consciousness, moving about in a shared external brutish world? Is everything we’ve ever experienced, loved, despised; is everything about being a human life a running calculation occurring within the confines of our skull?
No, we are part of and intimate with the world. All the evidence we have shows the fundamental nature of consciousness-everything occurs within consciousness.
There is no evidence of anything lying outside consciousness.
Materialism is a model, and as with all models, it is not correct, it is not to be mistaken for reality. And like all models it has various degrees of utility.
Who’s having a really bad hair day then, with all that negative “mundane” and “brutish” view of life rant? If everything is created in your consciousness as you apparently claim, then the “mundane” and “external brutish world” is merely a figment of your own imagination. Why can’t you simply imagine a nicer world with plenty of peace, love and light? Can't be that hard. Heaps of others seem to be able to do it. I think it helps if you put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and go "La, la, la, la, la".
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 14th January 2018 at 07:58 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 03:17 AM   #484
IanS
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,692
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
We can simply look to our own experience, the mundane and day to day. Are we a parcel or unit of consciousness, moving about in a shared external brutish world? Is everything we’ve ever experienced, loved, despised; is everything about being a human life a running calculation occurring within the confines of our skull?
No, we are part of and intimate with the world. All the evidence we have shows the fundamental nature of consciousness-everything occurs within consciousness.
There is no evidence of anything lying outside consciousness.
Materialism is a model, and as with all models, it is not correct, it is not to be mistaken for reality. And like all models it has various degrees of utility.

The above is just an expression of wilful ignorance and belief in the supernatural.

It says that the correct answers will be known to us simply from what any of us can experience in our daily lives. If that were true then almost none of the many billions of things that science has discovered would have ever have been known ... we do not "experience" the molecular and atomic structure of things ... we are not aware of evolution taking place all around us ... your daily living experience would never have shown you anything at all about relativity or quantum effects or about galaxies and the age of the universe.

Instead you would be doing what Larry does in all these threads, which is to claim that science is not discovering true explanations for anything, and that instead the true understanding is to believe that effects such as "consciousness" are caused by some sort of inexplicable supernatural agency that also tells us the universe has no reality except in an unreal human imagination.

Frankly that's just a display of monumental anti-scientific ignorance and a self-indulgent belief in the supernatural (it's almost always part of a God belief … and that's a belief that arose entirely from an ancient world that was positively drowning in ignorance and superstition).
IanS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 04:49 AM   #485
David Mo
Philosopher
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 5,036
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Science cannot explain consciousness, therefore....consciousness remains unexplained.
Some precisions:

Science cannot explain everything about consciousness then there are aspects of consciousness that are not scientifically explainable... now.

Is there some reason why science is not able of explain some aspects of the consciousness?
Can you consider another kind of explanation?
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 05:38 AM   #486
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 24,894
Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Science has already begun explaining a lot of traits of consciousness.

That said, on the other hand, it seems that a lot of individual people's consciousnesses cannot explain science.
Nominated!

Hans
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 11:01 AM   #487
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Can you consider another kind of explanation?
Sure (do tell) . . .
  1. What is this "other kind of explanation?"
  2. How does it work?
  3. What explanation of consciousness does it provide?

"Some precisions" would be appreciated in the answers.
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 15th January 2018 at 11:25 AM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 12:04 PM   #488
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 25,301
Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Science has already begun explaining a lot of traits of consciousness.

That said, on the other hand, it seems that a lot of individual people's consciousnesses cannot explain science.

I think it might have been American research engineer and scientist, and past President of the IEEE, Emerson Pugh who once said

"If the human brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple that we couldn’t!”
__________________
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 03:36 PM   #489
Nonpareil
The Terrible Trivium
 
Nonpareil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Nethescurial
Posts: 8,096
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
All the evidence we have shows the fundamental nature of consciousness-everything occurs within consciousness.
Incorrect.

Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
There is no evidence of anything lying outside consciousness.
Save for everything ever experienced by anyone, ever, you mean.
__________________
"The only thing you can do easily is be wrong, and that's hardly worth the effort."
- Norton Juster, The Phantom Tollbooth
Nonpareil is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 04:51 PM   #490
LarryS
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,351
I have claimed none of these-I have not referenced the supernatural nor did I disparage or even mention science. All I claimed is that ‘matter as primary’ is a model, as I would also claim ‘consciousness as primary’ is also a model.
I would also claim these models are also a way of seeing (perceiving, thinking and being present). Consciousness as primary is the more authentic, natural way of seeing-and when folks feel alienated and separate from experience, feel like a brain living in an alien world, they nurture a way back to the intimacy of living in consciousness.
LarryS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 04:57 PM   #491
LarryS
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,351
Originally Posted by Nonpareil View Post
Incorrect.



Save for everything ever experienced by anyone, ever, you mean.
No one has yet to find anything outside of consciousness. There is no thing outside of our being aware of it. Now, for specific questions and problems it’s perfectly rational to assume ‘matter as fundamental’.
LarryS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 06:27 PM   #492
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
No one has yet to find anything outside of consciousness.
Life is but a dream.

Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
There is no thing outside of our being aware of it.
Last night I was a man dreaming I'm a butterfly. Today am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man?

Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
Now, for specific questions and problems it’s perfectly rational to assume ‘matter as fundamental’.
Specific questions and problems like reality and sanity perhaps?
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 15th January 2018 at 06:29 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 06:44 PM   #493
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
I have claimed none of these-I have not referenced the supernatural nor did I disparage or even mention science. All I claimed is that ‘matter as primary’ is a model, as I would also claim ‘consciousness as primary’ is also a model.
I would also claim these models are also a way of seeing (perceiving, thinking and being present). Consciousness as primary is the more authentic, natural way of seeing-and when folks feel alienated and separate from experience, feel like a brain living in an alien world, they nurture a way back to the intimacy of living in consciousness.
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
No one has yet to find anything outside of consciousness. There is no thing outside of our being aware of it. Now, for specific questions and problems it’s perfectly rational to assume ‘matter as fundamental’.
Massively conceited of you to believe that you alone are so special that the entire Universe (including all other humans) exists entirely and only as a figment of your consciousness.
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 15th January 2018 at 06:59 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 08:11 PM   #494
LarryS
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,351
solipsism, so soon? Usually the high priests of Materialism play the solipsism card when they’ve completely run out of ideas.

The butterfly dream sequence was a bit desperate-don’t ya think?

Last edited by LarryS; 15th January 2018 at 08:20 PM.
LarryS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 09:02 PM   #495
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
No one has yet to find anything outside of consciousness. There is no thing outside of our being aware of it.
Pure solipsism.
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 09:13 PM   #496
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 20,891
You can make a model out of anything being primary.

Shrimp is primary. A shrimpness field pervades the universe that enables us to experience shrimp. It also explains why evolution of life on earth tended toward generating shrimp in the first place, as well as why we evolved intelligence and language so as to be able to understand and appreciate shrimp. In fact everything is actually a form of shrimp, but our limited brains are incapable of recognizing the shrimp nature of most things.

The question isn't whether such concepts are models, but whether they're useful for anything.
__________________
"*Except Myriad. Even Cthulhu would give him a pat on the head and an ice cream and send him to the movies while he ended the rest of the world." - Foster Zygote
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 03:56 AM   #497
IanS
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,692
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
I have claimed none of these-I have not referenced the supernatural nor did I disparage or even mention science. All I claimed is that ‘matter as primary’ is a model, as I would also claim ‘consciousness as primary’ is also a model.

I would also claim these models are also a way of seeing (perceiving, thinking and being present). Consciousness as primary is the more authentic, natural way of seeing-and when folks feel alienated and separate from experience, feel like a brain living in an alien world, they nurture a way back to the intimacy of living in consciousness.

"Matter" is not a "model". “Matter” is just a word that humans invented in language. It's just a word that refers to the all the things we detect around us (animals detect all the same things too ... in fact, so do plants). That's not a "model" in the sense of anyone saying "lets assume there are such things as solid objects, liquids, gases, ... everything" ... we are not merely "assuming" it or "proposing" it, instead it's simply everything that "exists" ... and what we mean by "exists" is all of that which we ever detect.

I have no idea what the second highlighted paragraph is supposed to mean at all. It sounds as if it's just an attempt to make-up a load of tenuous phrases so as to avoid the fact that all humans, all animals and plants, and even all inanimate "material” objects, also detect all the same things in the world around us.

But I think you have posted here many times before to support the usual philosophical objection that says “our understanding of the world comes to us only from using our senses and our brain, and that sensory system (inc. the brain) might be producing a completely false impression of everything”. However there are several very obvious problems with any such philosophical claim -

1. It's completely frivolous and in fact is nothing more than saying that if science cannot absolutely prove things as a 100% certainty, then it's perfectly reasonable for philosophers to claim that everything is quite likely to be totally untrue.

2. If philosophers make any such claim of saying our brain and senses might be fooling us in any significant way, then their suggestion/claim is utterly worthless until they show good evidence for that claim – they have to show that the universe is indeed not at all the way that science says it is ... and there's only one way to do that - they have to publish genuine research papers in the science research journals, to show that the theories of science are wrong ... but so far no philosopher has ever been able to do that ... so far the score is several million scientific papers explaining the universe in huge detail vs. philosophers alternative/objecting papers precisely None!... not a single one.

3. Philosophers must explain how it could ever be possible for any thinking intelligent animal (e.g. even inc. advanced aliens) to use any other method than a brain to determine the nature of the universe … what does the philosopher propose as an alternative to a brain? … and how is any alternative free from the same objections?

Last edited by IanS; 16th January 2018 at 03:58 AM.
IanS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 04:01 AM   #498
David Mo
Philosopher
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 5,036
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Sure (do tell) . . .
  1. What is this "other kind of explanation?"
  2. How does it work?
  3. What explanation of consciousness does it provide?

"Some precisions" would be appreciated in the answers.
Are you giving me the ball back?
Can I assume that you can't imagine any other kind of explanations that aren't scientific?
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 04:22 AM   #499
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
solipsism, so soon? Usually the high priests of Materialism play the solipsism card when they’ve completely run out of ideas.
Blame yourself, then.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 05:22 AM   #500
Cheetah
Master Poster
 
Cheetah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: South Africa
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
All the evidence we have shows the fundamental nature of consciousness-everything occurs within consciousness.
There is no evidence of anything lying outside consciousness.
Materialism is a model, and as with all models, it is not correct, it is not to be mistaken for reality.
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
solipsism, so soon? Usually the high priests of Materialism play the solipsism card when they’ve completely run out of ideas.
I thought you were the one who brought it up?
__________________
"... when you dig my grave, could you make it shallow so that I can feel the rain" - DMB
Cheetah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 05:39 AM   #501
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
I thought you were the one who brought it up?
Apparently it's not fair to mention that solipsists are solipsists. You'd think that if they were any good at it they wouldn't let you mention it in the first place.

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 06:02 AM   #502
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,950
If consciousness is the prime component of reality, then why can't we affect the world through thought alone?
And why does the apparently illusory material world produce reliable predictable results? That no amount of focusing, thinking, meditating or being conscious can affect in any perceivable way?
And if you say that's because it's part of our overarching shared consciousness and we have to obey consciousness' rules, then what you have is materialism by another name.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 06:16 AM   #503
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
If consciousness is the prime component of reality, then why can't we affect the world through thought alone?
Because you don't believe.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 06:24 AM   #504
IanS
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,692
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
All the evidence we have shows the fundamental nature of consciousness-everything occurs within consciousness.
There is no evidence of anything lying outside consciousness.

I just noticed the above sentence in your earlier post. That above claim is completely wrong. In fact it's the precise & complete opposite of the actual situation.

It is completely untrue to say that any evidence at all shows that "everything occurs within consciousness".

On the contrary, all known evidence shows that everything is taking place outside your consciousness! All that is happing in your so-called "consciousness", i.e. in your brain chemistry, is a reconstructed/pictured/sensed awareness of everything that is taking place outside of your brain!

Lets put that more simply - when you look into the sky at night and see all sorts of stars and planets, it is certainly untrue for you to claim that those stars and planets exist only in your "consciousness" i.e. just as a figment of your imagination. To the contrary - all known evidence shows that your mind/imagination/consciousness is simply reproducing a visual image of stars, planets, and a night sky in a universe that exists outside of and entirely independently of any human brain.

That's what all the known evidence shows. And that's what's shown as the evidence in every scientific paper ever published. What has never been shown, and never been published in any scientific paper, is the opposite situation which you just claimed, where all events in this universe only happen in the human mind/brain/consciousness, and not in any other external reality at all.

Last edited by IanS; 16th January 2018 at 06:26 AM.
IanS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 06:40 AM   #505
LarryS
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,351
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
If consciousness is the prime component of reality, then why can't we affect the world through thought alone?
And why does the apparently illusory material world produce reliable predictable results? That no amount of focusing, thinking, meditating or being conscious can affect in any perceivable way?
And if you say that's because it's part of our overarching shared consciousness and we have to obey consciousness' rules, then what you have is materialism by another name.
Thoughts arise in consciousness as any other experience, they hold no special powers or capacity. Yes, I’ve stated many times that the materialism model has utility. And yes, consciousness as primary is similar to a matter as primary model. The question is which model best describes your human experience, is your life a sequence of brain states, a discreet parcel of consciousness; or, is your experience a seamless integrated whole, where everything occurs in consciousness?
LarryS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 07:06 AM   #506
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,950
Introducing extra layers of reality that could complicate things, but miraculously work just like the simpler model, justified by wishful thinking because you feel like you're a spirit. Is that really all you have? All your haughty comments in every consciousness thread amount to this?
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 07:09 AM   #507
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Introducing extra layers of reality that could complicate things, but miraculously work just like the simpler model, justified by wishful thinking because you feel like you're a spirit.
On the other side of the equation, sometimes when I'm not really thinking about anything and I zone out, I lose the feeling of 'specialness' that the 'self' usually offers. Seems to indicate that the feeling of being an observer separate from the world is just an illusion that can be turned off at times.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 08:50 AM   #508
LarryS
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,351
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Introducing extra layers of reality that could complicate things, but miraculously work just like the simpler model, justified by wishful thinking because you feel like you're a spirit. Is that really all you have? All your haughty comments in every consciousness thread amount to this?
I have added nothing, materialism asserts matter and is far more complex.
LarryS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 09:06 AM   #509
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
I have added nothing, materialism asserts matter and is far more complex.
Nonsense. Matter is a lot simpler than thought. Perhaps you should drop the philosophical nonsense and stick to science and fact.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 09:25 AM   #510
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 20,891
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
I have added nothing, materialism asserts matter and is far more complex.

It's only more complex in contrast to naive solipsism.

If you're disclaiming solipsism, then you need to explain persistence and consistence of perception between different times and observers. If we go to the the same zoo, why do you see the same elephants (and the same zoo) that I do? Matter is one explanation, which adds elements (and elephants). Any alternative model must also add elements (whether those include elephants or not). Unless, of course, it fails to acknowledge and explain the same observations materialism does; but in that case, its simplicity is no advantage.
__________________
"*Except Myriad. Even Cthulhu would give him a pat on the head and an ice cream and send him to the movies while he ended the rest of the world." - Foster Zygote

Last edited by Myriad; 16th January 2018 at 09:28 AM.
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 10:55 AM   #511
surreptitious57
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 404
Originally Posted by abaddon
When exactly and using what method did you measure the speed of gravity
Is it not true that gravity propagates at the speed of light because it is massless
__________________
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious57 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 11:00 AM   #512
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by surreptitious57 View Post
Is it not true that gravity propagates at the speed of light because it is massless
Oh? Then what is true? What speed does it propagate at, and why?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 11:06 AM   #513
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by surreptitious57 View Post
Is it not true that gravity propagates at the speed of light because it is massless
That's right, and that's why after ridiculing me with his sarcastic comment, he has stayed away from the thread.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 11:51 AM   #514
LarryS
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,351
Ian, what you are describing is one interpretation of the evidence
LarryS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 02:25 PM   #515
surreptitious57
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 404
Solipsism / idealism notwithstanding it is generally accepted that reality is mind independent. But this cannot be demonstrated because
all knowledge and experience about reality is filtered through the mind. There is no mind independent testable hypothesis which can be
conducted to show that reality is mind independent. This does not mean it is not mind independent just that it cannot be demonstrated
But the best arguments in favour of mind independence are that everyone experiences the same objective reality rather than their own
individual subjective realities. Also that the observable Universe existed for over 99.99 per cent of its existence before humans evolved
__________________
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious57 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 04:29 PM   #516
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Are you giving me the ball back?
Can I assume that you can't imagine any other kind of explanations that aren't scientific?
I can’t imagine any other kind of explanations of consciousness that are worthy of any serious consideration. You and some others imply (at the very least) that there are other kinds of non-scientific methods that offer other kinds of explanations of consciousness, and imply (at the very least) that they are worthy of serious consideration. You and those others NEVER define what those methods or explanations are however.

So yes, I’m definitely giving you and some others “the ball back” to explain what those methods and explanations are. A fair and appropriate request.

Your turn . . .
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 16th January 2018 at 05:44 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 05:35 PM   #517
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
Ian, what you are describing is one interpretation of the evidence
Provide another interpretation that has some credibility beyond being mere unsupported assertion or belief.
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 16th January 2018 at 05:42 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 05:48 PM   #518
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
Am I the only one that thinks this . . .
Originally Posted by surreptitious57 View Post
Solipsism / idealism notwithstanding it is generally accepted that reality is mind independent. But this cannot be demonstrated because all knowledge and experience about reality is filtered through the mind. There is no mind independent testable hypothesis which can be conducted to show that reality is mind independent. This does not mean it is not mind independent just that it cannot be demonstrated
is a contradiction of this . . .?
Originally Posted by surreptitious57 View Post
But the best arguments in favour of mind independence are that everyone experiences the same objective reality rather than their own individual subjective realities. Also that the observable Universe existed for over 99.99 per cent of its existence before humans evolved
ETA - I've removed the inappropriate and annoying line breaks to from the original post to make it easier to read (you're welcome).
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 16th January 2018 at 05:51 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 06:54 PM   #519
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 20,891
Originally Posted by baron View Post
That's right, and that's why after ridiculing me with his sarcastic comment, he has stayed away from the thread.

Well, his sarcastic comment was a bit off, but so was the absurd physics in the analogy you made that he was being sarcastic about.

Originally Posted by baron View Post
That doesn't tell the full story. A gravitational field exists independently of mass, but as soon as you remove the mass the field vanishes too (and indeed there will always be a slight delay so that the gravitational field will always exist after the mass has vanished).

"A gravitational field exists independently of mass." Cite please?

"As soon as you remove the mass..." How do you do that, exactly? You can move the mass, which alters the gravitational field. (Current theory holds that those changes propagate at the speed of light, as gravity waves; perhaps you've heard of those.)

You can also change some of the mass to energy. That in and of itself (until the energy moves, in which case see previous paragraph) has no effect at all on the gravitational field. General Relativity says energy has the same gravitation as the equivalent amount (E/C2) of mass.

If you know a way to make mass-energy vanish, or generate a gravitational field independent of mass, you should indeed receive a Nobel prize.
__________________
"*Except Myriad. Even Cthulhu would give him a pat on the head and an ice cream and send him to the movies while he ended the rest of the world." - Foster Zygote
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 07:26 PM   #520
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 8,143
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
"A gravitational field exists independently of mass." Cite please?
It can exist independently of rest mass at least, a spacetime with just a bunch of photons flying in different directions will have a gravitational field.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:19 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.