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Old 29th December 2017, 05:15 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
So? And the ONLY reason we know what we do know is from science.
Really? I know I'm conscious because of science? I kind of took that for granted. Most of the important things I know are through self-discovery. Those truths are heard-earned. What flavor quarks make up a proton? Kind of trivial.

Quote:
But since you think there is another way I CHALLENGE YOU to tell us how. Please expound on this other method to learn about the universe. Should we pray for an answer?
Introspection, of course, is one way. The unexamined life is not worth living, and all that.
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Old 29th December 2017, 05:17 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yea, I think it's another version of woo. Sounds like a tech version of astrology. Bovine excrement piled high for the 21st century.
Or you can keep spinning your wheels and hoping that the answer is coming someday...
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Old 29th December 2017, 05:34 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Really? I know I'm conscious because of science? I kind of took that for granted. Most of the important things I know are through self-discovery. Those truths are heard-earned. What flavor quarks make up a proton? Kind of trivial.
Now you're changing subjects. You said we only know about 5 percent of the universe or galaxy and my reply was the ONLY reason we know as much as we do is through science. My remark had nothing to do with consciousness, but about humanity's acquired knowledge and it's source.

Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Introspection, of course, is one way. The unexamined life is not worth living, and all that.
You think if you contemplate your belly button long enough that the answer of how consciousness develops will somehow pop into your mind? Get serious.

Sam Harris or maybe it was Lawrence Krause was discussing this on a YouTube video I recently watched. He basically dismissed that even if Einstein, Bohr and Feynman gathered in a room and meditated, they would not be productive.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 29th December 2017 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 29th December 2017, 05:48 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Or you can keep spinning your wheels and hoping that the answer is coming someday...
"I don't know" is a perfectly scientific answer.

"I don't know, therefore insert woo of choice" most certainly is not. You should know this by now.

And it isn't a case of spinning one's wheels at all because the answers are being discovered as we speak. Tough luck.
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Old 29th December 2017, 05:53 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Or you can keep spinning your wheels and hoping that the answer is coming someday...
It has nothing to do with hope. It has to do with the track record. Whereas science hasn't provided answers for ever question we have, it's track record of success is real. In contrast, woo has provided answers for NOTHING and likely never will.
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Old 29th December 2017, 08:22 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It has nothing to do with hope. It has to do with the track record. Whereas science hasn't provided answers for ever question we have, it's track record of success is real. In contrast, woo has provided answers for NOTHING and likely never will.
I think we should leave it at: you have faith in the scientific track record; and I think past performance is no guarantee of future results.

I think [ETA] that sums things up pretty nicely.

Last edited by Fudbucker; 29th December 2017 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 29th December 2017, 08:42 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I think we should leave it at: you have faith in the scientific track record;
It's not faith. Faith is the answer people give when they don't have a good reason. Because if you had a good reason you wouldn't need faith.

It's an understanding of reality. Science is the only method to date that has any success and woo has successfully answered nothing. Sure, it's possible that science may not be able to come up with the answer, but there is virtually no chance that woo will answer this question or any question.
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
and I think past performance is no guarantee of future results.

I think whats sums things up pretty nicely.
It may not be a guarantee, but it's pretty damn close. I'll hitch my wagon every time to the one method we know has the best chance at success to the other method which has never ever been successful.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 29th December 2017 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 30th December 2017, 01:02 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Materialism has no room for gods, obviously, so if materialism leads to an absurdity, as I believe it does, the other two models become more believable.
Does materialism also fail to explain the origin of life? Because that strikes me as a more basic question: Create some primordial ooze, add sunlight and presto! Life! And if you believe in inanimate material suddenly becoming alive,you're practically going from materialist to dualist to theist right there.

So: Is the origin of life question also unsolvable, in the way that you believe the origin of consciousness is unsolvable?

I don't find materialism to be all that satisfying, philosophically. Do you believe that before there was conscious meat, there was unconscious meat; is it only in the higher animals that you see any necessity for a dualistic world view? What about during the dinosaur era, did the so-called problem of consciousness exist?

I like the idea of there being a body and soul, but I can't say when a body becomes ensouled. Materialism is all-of-a-piece; there is no metaphysical threshold (that I know of) that needs to be bridged. It leads to a more coherent picture, IMO. I ran around with a consciousness crowd for a while, the dualistic, non-emergent, anti-AI wing. They were a mix of serious theorists and New Age types, but not many doing hard-core neuroscience.
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Old 30th December 2017, 02:47 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I look forward to hearing your explanation as to how brains produce consciousness, given all this research you talk about.

And let me ask an obvious question: how will you know if a machine is conscious or not?

And let me ask another obvious question: what is consciousness?
Why do you ask me? It seems you deny consciousness exists, for you can't define or detect it. If you are right, then there is nothing to be explained.
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Old 30th December 2017, 04:22 AM   #90
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In other context, I was just reminded of Clarke's First Law, and I think it applies here:
"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, they are almost certainly right. When they state that something is impossible, they are very probably wrong."
I realize that none of us probably is a distinguished but elderly scientist, but the second half of the law I think applies to non-distinguished, non-elderly non-scientists as well.
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Old 30th December 2017, 05:07 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post

I think we should look in areas that might seem ridiculous. Ridiculous things sometimes turn out to be true.

Other people (mostly cranks) are starting to go this route: https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science...ous-ncna772956[/quote]
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Old 30th December 2017, 06:44 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
..........I like the idea of there being a body and soul.........
This is all you've got in support of the idea of the existence of souls. It's all anyone has got.
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Old 30th December 2017, 07:02 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Science doesn't know, but the key is I believe science won't ever know. It's unequipped to solve that one.
[Snip]
Materialism has no room for gods, obviously, so if materialism leads to an absurdity, as I believe it does, the other two models become more believable.
There is no absurdity. Its just your personal unsupported belief that consciousness can't arise from organisation in matter.
"I don't want to believe that" isn't an argument.

And you throw around this challenge to science to define consciousness for you, as if that somehow strengthens your position.
If you don't even have a working definition, how can you claim that consciousness is outside the scope of scientific understanding?
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Old 30th December 2017, 07:43 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
...snip....

If materialism is true, then consciousness arising from a lump of meat is an ongoing miracle which science has utterly failed to explain. And probably never will.
You are confusing your lack of knowledge and understanding for the current state of understanding behaviours such as "consciousness".
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Old 30th December 2017, 08:35 AM   #95
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Neuroscience is a subject of interest to me, and I subscribe to a couple of neuroscience blogs on Tumblr. They are both quite active.
I also just read the Robert Ornstein book, “The Evolution of Consciousness” which explores the subject in some detail.

While contemporary neuroscience, like contemporary cosmology and astrophysics, can’t tell us everything about how our little “3-pound universes” work, we are gaining more and more knowledge of these things on an ongoing basis.

It’s been said that we’ve learned more about brain function in the last 10 years than we have in all of previous history.

In all of that, I’ve never seen even the slightest indication that anything other than the electrochemical activity of “The most complex stuff in the universe” is necessary to explain consciousness.
To all evidence it’s tied inextricably to the activity of the brain, which is easily demonstrated by the profound effects on consciousness that occur when one tampers with or damages the brain.
Damage this area...That bit of function is lost. Stimulate that area, a memory may be reliably elicited. Introduce psychoactive chemicals, and predictable effects occur. Alter the brain’s internal chemical balances even slightly, and profound effects may occur. Just drop the blood-sugar level a few points and the person becomes incoherent, confused, and eventually unconscious.
The overall solution to the so-called “hard problem” of consciousness may be as knotty as is the nature of the Dark Matter.... But it’s in the area of neuroscience that it will be sussed out, not spiritual mumbo-jumbo.
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:03 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Neuroscience is a subject of interest to me, and I subscribe to a couple of neuroscience blogs on Tumblr. They are both quite active.
I also just read the Robert Ornstein book, “The Evolution of Consciousness” which explores the subject in some detail.

While contemporary neuroscience, like contemporary cosmology and astrophysics, can’t tell us everything about how our little “3-pound universes” work, we are gaining more and more knowledge of these things on an ongoing basis.

It’s been said that we’ve learned more about brain function in the last 10 years than we have in all of previous history.

In all of that, I’ve never seen even the slightest indication that anything other than the electrochemical activity of “The most complex stuff in the universe” is necessary to explain consciousness.
To all evidence it’s tied inextricably to the activity of the brain, which is easily demonstrated by the profound effects on consciousness that occur when one tampers with or damages the brain.
Damage this area...That bit of function is lost. Stimulate that area, a memory may be reliably elicited. Introduce psychoactive chemicals, and predictable effects occur. Alter the brain’s internal chemical balances even slightly, and profound effects may occur. Just drop the blood-sugar level a few points and the person becomes incoherent, confused, and eventually unconscious.
The overall solution to the so-called “hard problem” of consciousness may be as knotty as is the nature of the Dark Matter.... But it’s in the area of neuroscience that it will be sussed out, not spiritual mumbo-jumbo.
Thank you for this post. I've never really thought this was an unsolvable mystery.

I'm convinced that life and consciousness is all about the right recipe. Put the proper ingredients together under the right conditions and life will materialise every time. And given enough time and the right conditions simple life will eventually evolve into more complex life and that life will develop consciousness.

That we don't know today precisely what those conditions exactly are is not a failure of science. Things take time and require resources and the right technology and some times that technology hasn't been invented as of yet.

Man is in his technological infancy. I think about the massive amount of knowledge we have acquired in just the last few years and I am awestruck. But we didn't get here with mumbo jumbo.

There is no evidence of a universal consciousness or spirit. And more importantly, why would anyone think there is?
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:49 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It certainly does matter. If materialism leads to an absurd conclusion, like the existence of conscious pieces of meat, it's devastating for the theory.
Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Am I the only one that doesn't find "conscious pieces of meat" to be an absurd conclusion?

I mean, they're all around me. I am one. Why would I find it absurd? This seems like an argument from incredulity, like he's just trying to word it in a way that sounds strange even though it's an incredibly normal thing.

Calling them "pieces of meat" makes them sound like dead slabs of steak or something, and I agree that would be absurd. But we're talking about living brains, right? That's not absurd at all.

http://www.terrybisson.com/page6/page6.html
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Old 30th December 2017, 01:49 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It certainly does matter. If materialism leads to an absurd conclusion, like the existence of conscious pieces of meat, it's devastating for the theory. I think it reached that point long ago. Consciousness has always been the achilles heel of materialism.

Well to me the idea of consciousness being achieved by a non material being is far more absurd.

Oh, but hang on we can always bring in the "this is God we are talking about and we just don't understand it" clause. That's taken care of that.
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Old 30th December 2017, 01:56 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well to me the idea of consciousness being achieved by a non material being is far more absurd.

Oh, but hang on we can always bring in the "this is God we are talking about and we just don't understand it" clause. That's taken care of that.

But as Fudbucker said, "the problem is that there should have been hints of an explanation after all this time." And religion has had a lot more time than science to come up with a hint of an explanation.
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Old 30th December 2017, 02:12 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I think it would be a catastrophic failure if materialism continues to come up empty trying to explain something as fundamental as consciousness. I would eventually start looking at other theories, wouldn't you?
You'd look into the ridiculous and, to start making sense of it, find... dah-dah-dah-dah-bam-ting! You're back to the old sciency ways.

What tedious hypocrisy; that you couldn't bear the courage of your conniptions!
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Old 30th December 2017, 02:12 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
......If materialism leads to an absurd conclusion, like the existence of conscious pieces of meat, it's devastating for the theory. I think it reached that point long ago.
I've highlighted the only important words in these two sentences.


Quote:
Consciousness has always been the achilles heel of materialism.
You are projecting your ignorance here, in the course of stating something as fact for which there is no evidence.
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Old 30th December 2017, 02:47 PM   #102
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I think, therefore, I am

This is all I need to know about conciousness
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Old 30th December 2017, 02:48 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It certainly does matter. If materialism leads to an absurd conclusion, like the existence of conscious pieces of meat, it's devastating for the theory. I think it reached that point long ago. Consciousness has always been the achilles heel of materialism.
This makes no sense at all. Materialism is the only thing that explains the conscious pieces of meat. We know of NO such thing as a conscious that exists without an organic entity associated with it. Consciousness is NOT an Achilles heel of materialism.
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Old 30th December 2017, 03:06 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This makes no sense at all. Materialism is the only thing that explains the conscious pieces of meat. We know of NO such thing as a conscious that exists without an organic entity associated with it. Consciousness is NOT an Achilles heel of materialism.
Well, it could be, for those who are obsessed with knowing why consciousness exists (usually the same people who accept the existence of invisible sky deities without any evidence or proof).

For mine, conciousness is something I experience. It exists, and I don't much care why. If it didn't exist, well we would not be having this discussion.
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Old 30th December 2017, 04:19 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This makes no sense at all. Materialism is the only thing that explains the conscious pieces of meat.
Actually, materialism has so far failed to explain this, which is the whole point of the thread.

Quote:
We know of NO such thing as a conscious that exists without an organic entity associated with it.
Which does not mean that no such thing exists. There are a lot of things whose existence, when we learned of it, surprised us.

Quote:
Consciousness is NOT an Achilles heel of materialism.
I disagree.
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Old 30th December 2017, 04:21 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
But as Fudbucker said, "the problem is that there should have been hints of an explanation after all this time." And religion has had a lot more time than science to come up with a hint of an explanation.
This is wasted on me, I'm not a theist. My point is that materialist-based science has failed on this. Some people are hypothesizing a possible consciousness field that permeates the universe. Research along those lines might turn up interesting results.
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Old 30th December 2017, 04:39 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
This is wasted on me, I'm not a theist.
You sure smell like one.

Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
My point is that materialist-based science has failed on this.
And I thought you don’t fail until you give up. I don’t see materialist-based science giving up any time soon.

Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Some people are hypothesizing a possible consciousness field that permeates the universe. Research along those lines might turn up interesting results.
Only if The Universe turns out to be an omnipresent brain.

Keep looking, I’m sure you will eventually find the god you desperately seek (if you haven't already).

Cosmic consciousness - A god by any other name . . .
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Old 30th December 2017, 05:47 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Actually, materialism has so far failed to explain this, which is the whole point of the thread.
Of COURSE IT HAS. Can you identify a single item anywhere that you KNOW to have a conscious that doesn't have a living organism associated with it? Therefore the material is necessary for consciousness.

Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Which does not mean that no such thing exists. There are a lot of things whose existence, when we learned of it, surprised us.
By that logic, you can postulate that fairies, Big Foot and cow farts are the source of consciousness. There IS ABSOLUTELY no reason to believe that these things are true anymore than the horse manure you are putting stock in.


Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I disagree.
So what? So you disagree? You can believe in all kinds of things. That doesn't make them true.
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Old 30th December 2017, 07:01 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
This is wasted on me, I'm not a theist. My point is that materialist-based science has failed on this. Some people are hypothesizing a possible consciousness field that permeates the universe. Research along those lines might turn up interesting results.
Well, since you claim that materialism cannot explain consciousness, let's hear your explanation. Do you have one? Of course not.
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Old 30th December 2017, 08:00 PM   #110
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A perfect analogy

Fud seems to believe because we don't have a detailed answer for what causes consciousness and despite every clue pointing toward a material association that we look for an answer in the universe instead.

This is like proposing that since you can't find your keys, you should look half way around the world in places you have never been as opposed to continuing your search in the places you frequent.

Granted you may be frustrated since you haven't found them, but that doesn't justify going off on a wild goose chase.
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Old 30th December 2017, 08:45 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Or you can keep spinning your wheels and hoping that the answer is coming someday...

... as opposed to religion where new information comes never.
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Old 30th December 2017, 09:30 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Really? I know I'm conscious because of science? I kind of took that for granted. Most of the important things I know are through self-discovery. Those truths are heard-earned. What flavor quarks make up a proton? Kind of trivial.
I don't claim to know I am conscious.
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Old 30th December 2017, 09:55 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't claim to know I am conscious.

According to Richard Linklater, flip the lightswitch. You can't turn lights on or off in your dreams.

I have no idea if this is true or how anybody could possibly know it. Still, it's in a Richard Linklater movie, so it must be genius.
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Old 30th December 2017, 09:56 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There is no evidence of a universal consciousness or spirit. And more importantly, why would anyone think there is?
Because we experience our own personalities, and the personalities of our loved ones, so powerfully that it's hard to believe that all of this dies with brain death. You sit with someone dying; at some point they're "gone," and maybe we instinctively believe they've gone somewhere?

I never saw the "big problem" nature of consciousness. I wasn't sure there was anything to explain. I did not know of any reason that an organism would not become self-aware, maybe as an evolutionary strategy.
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Old 31st December 2017, 01:15 AM   #115
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I'm not sure consciousness is such a big deal anyway. It obviously seems important to us, but most animals manage perfectly well without it. The more we find out about how the brain works the less of a big deal it becomes, seeming to be little more than a thin veneer on the unconscious workings of the brain with far less of a role to play in decision making, for example, than we'd previously assumed.
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Old 31st December 2017, 01:58 AM   #116
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So, Fudbucker, all you have to discount materialism is your personal incredulity.

Could you perhaps explain why you think science will never be able to research consciousness?
Your previous 'explanation' that science isn't equipped for it isn't an explanation, just a rephrasing of your claim.

And could you point us to a system with a better track record for finding answers about the way things work?
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Old 31st December 2017, 03:00 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
This is wasted on me, I'm not a theist. My point is that materialist-based science has failed on this. Some people are hypothesizing a possible consciousness field that permeates the universe. Research along those lines might turn up interesting results.

How do you plan researching it without involving materialism?
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Old 31st December 2017, 03:30 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Because we experience our own personalities, and the personalities of our loved ones, so powerfully that it's hard to believe that all of this dies with brain death. You sit with someone dying; at some point they're "gone," and maybe we instinctively believe they've gone somewhere?
Nothing more than an emotionally comforting denial of an unpalatable reality.
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Old 31st December 2017, 03:35 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
How do you plan researching it without involving materialism?
Don’t think metaphysical enlightenment is the result of research.
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Old 31st December 2017, 04:07 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Don’t think metaphysical enlightenment is the result of research.

But it produces marvellously detailed descriptions of the Emperor's feathered hat. It might even finally answer the question of what colour Russell's teapot is.
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