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Tags Claudine Gay , harvard , plagiarism

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Old 2nd January 2024, 06:35 PM   #1
angrysoba
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Claudine Gay resigns as Harvard President

Quote:
Harvard University's president has resigned after facing allegations of plagiarism and criticism over her comments about antisemitism on campus.

Claudine Gay had faced mounting pressure to step down in recent weeks.

In a letter announcing her resignation, she said it was in the "best interests" of the university for her to step down.

"It has been distressing to have doubt cast on my commitments to confronting hate and to upholding scholarly rigour," she said.

"This is not a decision I came to easily. Indeed, it has been difficult beyond words," Dr Gay wrote, adding that her resignation would allow Harvard to "focus on the institution rather than any individual".

She said she had been subjected to personal threats and "racial animus".
Link

I expect two things are true in this case.

Was she targeted for racial abuse? Yes, almost certainly.

Was she guilty of plagiarism? Yes. If you look at some of the passages that appear in her work, she blatantly used the exact same wording as papers that she cited but without using quotations. She clearly gave the impression that the words were hers and thus used other people's work without proper attribution.

It has been pointed out that students have been kicked out of Harvard for doing exactly what she has done, so it makes no sense to allow her to remain as president of the university.

As a person who grades student work, albeit students writing in a second language, I have had seen plenty of examples like this, usually in a first draft because my job is to teach students who to write gooder, and then I would tell them to change it. If they still decided to submit work which was blatantly using other people's words as their own, then they would receive a zero for the assignment.
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Old 2nd January 2024, 07:15 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Was she targeted for racial abuse? Yes, almost certainly.

Almost certainly exactly the opposite. Despite disgracing herself and her university at the congressional campus antisemitism hearings and having repeatedly committed plagiarism, the Harvard Board voted initially to retain her. That was what was almost certainly racially motivated. In contrast, Penn's president, Elizabeth Magill, who is white, who didn't commit plagiarism, but who equally embarrassed herself and her University at the hearings, resigned under pressure.
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Old 2nd January 2024, 07:29 PM   #3
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Bigoted thief of intellectual property.

Good riddance.
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Old 2nd January 2024, 07:36 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
Almost certainly exactly the opposite. Despite disgracing herself and her university at the congressional campus antisemitism hearings and having repeatedly committed plagiarism, the Harvard Board voted initially to retain her. That was what was almost certainly racially motivated. In contrast, Penn's president, Elizabeth Magill, who is white, who didn't commit plagiarism, but who equally embarrassed herself and her University at the hearings, resigned under pressure.
I'm not saying Harvard racially abused her. The racial abuse which did happen apparently was sent to the university in emails and phone calls.
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Old 2nd January 2024, 07:38 PM   #5
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Old 2nd January 2024, 07:45 PM   #6
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Imagine how many hard working, actually accomplished, totally ethical DEI candidates were passed over for this job.

Or, if you can stomach it, imagine that Gay was the most presentable of these candidates. And imagine how much pressure Harvard must have been under, to hire such a candidate. Maybe it's the people who hired Gay to who should resign.

Maybe it's the people who pushed DEI in spite of its predicted failure modes and the people harmed - not least Gay herself - that we should be calling out as villains.
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Old 2nd January 2024, 07:51 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
Okay, that was funny!

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Old 2nd January 2024, 10:02 PM   #8
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She apparently even plagiarized her acknowledgements page, which is sort of bizarre, if you think about it (although she did change the names).
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Old 2nd January 2024, 10:46 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Imagine how many hard working, actually accomplished, totally ethical DEI candidates were passed over for this job.

Imagine how many hard working, actually accomplished, ethical candidates, judged on the merit of their accomplishments without regard to the color of their skin were passed over for the job.
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. —Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Old 2nd January 2024, 11:28 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
Imagine how many hard working, actually accomplished, ethical candidates, judged on the merit of their accomplishments without regard to the color of their skin were passed over for the job.
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. —Martin Luther King, Jr.
Claudine Gay
FTFY
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Old 3rd January 2024, 12:42 AM   #11
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This is a fascinating cancellation. She cancelled a black professor who explained the police are fair when shooting whites and blacks.
Of course Candace Owens and Amalia Ekpunobi are unsure if their children or themselves are white or black.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 03:34 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This is a fascinating cancellation. She cancelled a black professor who explained the police are fair when shooting whites and blacks.
Of course Candace Owens and Amalia Ekpunobi are unsure if their children or themselves are white or black.
Do you mean Roland Fryer? Would you mind explaining, in your own words, what role she had in cancelling him?
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Old 3rd January 2024, 07:14 AM   #13
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Old 3rd January 2024, 07:19 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Maybe it's the people who pushed DEI in spite of its predicted failure modes and the people harmed - not least Gay herself - that we should be calling out as villains.
Gay probably has a bright career ahead of her in politics, I expect she'll be fine. Plagiarism has never really been disqualifying in that field. But a whole lot of people sold on the false promises of DEI won't be.

ETA: Oh, and she won't be leaving Harvard. She's stepping down as president, but she's still a professor there. Likely still pulling in a hefty salary as well.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 08:18 AM   #15
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OK, this is funny. If you put Gay's resignation letter text into Grammarly, it flags it as plagiarized. Try it for yourself with the below links and make of it what you will.

Resignation letter text
Grammarly plagiarism checker
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Old 3rd January 2024, 08:31 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
OK, this is funny. If you put Gay's resignation letter text into Grammarly, it flags it as plagiarized. Try it for yourself with the below links and make of it what you will.

Resignation letter text
Grammarly plagiarism checker
I'm not sure how Grammarly works as I don't have it installed, but if it's like most plagiarism checkers it would just flag anything that matches stuff published online, which the resignation letter obviously was, or stuff previously added to its database. You'd need to know what it was matching with to interpret it correctly.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 08:39 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I'm not saying Harvard racially abused her. The racial abuse which did happen apparently was sent to the university in emails and phone calls.
I would have been shocked if this wasn't the case. In the age of easy anonymous communication, that's more the norm than not.

Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
She apparently even plagiarized her acknowledgements page, which is sort of bizarre, if you think about it (although she did change the names).
That is the funniest bit really, I'm mean, why?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's funny.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Gay probably has a bright career ahead of her in politics, I expect she'll be fine. Plagiarism has never really been disqualifying in that field. But a whole lot of people sold on the false promises of DEI won't be.

ETA: Oh, and she won't be leaving Harvard. She's stepping down as president, but she's still a professor there. Likely still pulling in a hefty salary as well.
Plagiarism has really only caused the cancelation of the up and coming, the already established do fine.

Honestly, the sadest thing about all of this, Harvard legit has a double standard for plagerism for staff vs students. Students, its a hard out, Staff it was always a meh, that's a shame probably shouldn't do it.

Notes on Harvard that are amusing.
How do you know if someone went to harvard? Don't worry, they'll tell you.
Allegedly a quote by Thomas Sowell, the best thing about going to Harvard, you'll never again be impressed by anyone that went to Harvard.

I have a cousin that wen to Yale, she's quite bright but that seems to be despite her education, I'll never again be impressed by someone that went to Yale.

Last edited by ahhell; 3rd January 2024 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 09:51 AM   #18
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Hot take by the Associated Press:

Quote:
The campaign against Gay and other Ivy League presidents has become part of a broader right-wing effort to remake higher education, which has often been seen as a bastion of liberalism. Republican detractors have sought to gut funding for public universities, roll back tenure and banish initiatives that make colleges more welcoming to students of color, disabled students and the LGBTQ+ community. They also have aimed to limit how race and gender are discussed in classrooms.
Classic journalism; when a liberal does something wrong, the story is always "Republicans pounce!"
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Old 3rd January 2024, 09:58 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Hot take by the Associated Press:
"initiatives that make colleges more welcoming to students of color"

If hiring an underqualified, unethical person of color makes colleges more welcoming to students of color, then we should probably take a long hard look at where these students are coming from, and why that is what makes them feel more welcome. Maybe the AP can do some investigative journalism on that topic.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 10:15 AM   #20
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Liberal, black, woman, and Gay. Gonna be a tough quadfecta to beat.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 11:11 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Liberal, black, woman, and Gay. Gonna be a tough quadfecta to beat.
At least she did not claim North American Indian heritage.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 11:32 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
At least she did not claim North American Indian heritage.
Kevin Costner plans to make a feature film of her career called Dances With Xerox.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 12:07 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
Imagine how many hard working, actually accomplished, ethical candidates, judged on the merit of their accomplishments without regard to the color of their skin were passed over for the job.
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. —Martin Luther King, Jr.
There is a special place in hell for people who misappropriate that line.

She messed up. She needed to go for the plagiarism. Hell, she should have been drummed out of academia for even trying it. Her performance at that hearing was bad. She should have been better prepared to deal with dumb right-wing trolls. She gave a lawyer's answer that was based on the idea of dealing with another mature adult acting in good faith. They all should have known better.

and now a bunch of tiki torch waving ************* are going to act like they aren't anti-Semitic and celebrate this as some kind of "win".
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Old 3rd January 2024, 12:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
Imagine how many hard working, actually accomplished, ethical candidates, judged on the merit of their accomplishments without regard to the color of their skin were passed over for the job.
Baby steps.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 12:15 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I'm not saying Harvard racially abused her. The racial abuse which did happen apparently was sent to the university in emails and phone calls.
I like her leap from "the school received some racially abusive messages" to "I was racially abused."

More like, "the admin who answers the phone and the grad student who filters my email were racially abused." Which would have been a fine and noble reason to step down: to protect those who work with you and for you.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 12:16 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Liberal, black, woman, and Gay. Gonna be a tough quadfecta to beat.
I dunno. Qualified, ethical, competent, and transparent seems like... No, you're right.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 12:23 PM   #27
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Whenever I hear of a case like this I think of the policy of selecting musicians via Blind auditionWPs.

Quote:
In a blind audition the identity of the performer is concealed from the judges so as to prevent bias. The performance takes place behind a curtain so that the judges cannot see the performer. Blind auditions have become standard in symphony orchestras.
and, further

Quote:
According to a widely cited 2001 study by Cecilia Rouse of Princeton and Claudia Goldin of Harvard, the introduction of blind auditions to American symphony orchestras increased the probability that a woman would advance from preliminary rounds by 50 percent. Among those symphonies, "about 10 percent of orchestra members were female around 1970, compared to about 35 percent in the mid-1990s." Rouse and Goldin attribute about 30 percent of this gain to the advent of blind auditions, though they admit that their "estimates have large standard errors and at least one persistent effect in the opposite direction."
Surely the fairest way of doing things. No gender, racial, age or physical bias. Just the best player wining.

Not applicable to all competitions but something to strive for.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 12:30 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
There is a special place in hell for people who misappropriate that line.
How is that misappropriated?

Quote:
She messed up. She needed to go for the plagiarism. Hell, she should have been drummed out of academia for even trying it.
But she wasn't. Instead, she was promoted. Why? Because she checked the DEI boxes, not because of any competency. She displays none. She is capable of none. That's why she plagiarized in the first place. And even if her plagiarism went unnoticed rather than disregarded, I don't find it in the least bit plausible that her lack of competence did.

Quote:
Her performance at that hearing was bad. She should have been better prepared to deal with dumb right-wing trolls.
But she wasn't. Because, again, she's not actually competent.

Quote:
She gave a lawyer's answer that was based on the idea of dealing with another mature adult acting in good faith.
Now you're engaging in pathetic excuses. No. She gave a bad answer because she was unwilling to publicly stand against the antisemitism infesting her own university. You claim that the questioners were acting in bad faith, but that's not actually relevant, it's an unfalsifiable attempt to distract from what happened. The questions themselves were quite simple and direct. She did not give a direct answer because she could not give a direct answer. That's entirely on her, no one else.

Quote:
and now a bunch of tiki torch waving ************* are going to act like they are anti-Semitic are celebrating this as some kind of "win".
It is a kind of win. Plagiarists shouldn't be put in charge of academic institutions. How is removing a plagiarist from being in charge of an academic institution NOT a win? Instead of complaining that the wrong people are calling it a win, you should start claiming it as a win for your own side, so that you can actually claim to be in favor of academic integrity. Because right now, it's looking like you don't really care about that, you're only giving it lip service.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 12:33 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Whenever I hear of a case like this I think of the policy of selecting musicians via Blind auditionWPs.



and, further



Surely the fairest way of doing things. No gender, racial, age or physical bias. Just the best player wining.

Not applicable to all competitions but something to strive for.
"Now, each candidate will be behind a curtain and will president the university. Then the judges will decide, without seeing the candidate, which one presidented the best."

Yeah, I think this may not work with all positions and competitions.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 12:39 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Whenever I hear of a case like this I think of the policy of selecting musicians via Blind auditionWPs.
Blind auditions are now being attacked from the left, because while they select the best musicians, they don't select a properly "diverse" group of musicians. It's now the left which is explicitly in favor of racial discrimination over meritocracy.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 12:49 PM   #31
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I don't think a university president's job --particularly of a large and famous institution like Harvard -- is analogous to a musician's job. Surely the former is largely about PR and academic (and actual) politics? In such a position race, appearance, sexuality, background, all of that stuff may well indeed matter to the work.

Unless presidents of Harvard teach classes and do academic research? Do they? Did this lady pop into the lecture hall and teach students? Spends her evenings grading papers? I suspect the job was more about expense account lunches with potential donors and attending fancy parties. Representing the university as [insert all your possible groups here] might well indeed be a part of the job.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 12:51 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How is that misappropriated?
For starters, it is an aspirational quote. Second, we are nowhere near that time where a person isn't based on the color of their skin. Its being used here to celebrate taking down a black woman.

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But she wasn't. Instead, she was promoted.
Yes, and we can agree that was wrong.

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Why? Because she checked the DEI boxes, not because of any competency. She displays none. She is capable of none. That's why she plagiarized in the first place. And even if her plagiarism went unnoticed rather than disregarded, I don't find it in the least bit plausible that her lack of competence did.
You know hat I would like to see? The same vitriol thrown at people who get these jobs because of family connections or just being in the old boys' network. White Folk Affirmative Action.

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But she wasn't. Because, again, she's not actually competent.
I don't think this was her specific failure, rather none of them realized that they were dealing with trolls grandstanding for morons.

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Now you're engaging in pathetic excuses. No. She gave a bad answer because she was unwilling to publicly stand against the antisemitism infesting her own university.
No, it was a stupid question meant to trap her. Should she have been better prepared? Absolutely. And the people going at her now are a big part of the "antisemitism infesting her own university."

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You claim that the questioners were acting in bad faith, but that's not actually relevant,
Of course it is. I'm not pretending that anyone celebrating this gives a rat's ass about Jewish students, faculty, or staff being harassed or attacked. Just like they don't give a rat's ass about the Muslim students, faculty, and staff facing the same thing. Just like they don't give a rat's about the LGBTQ+ student, faculty and staff. Just like they don't give a rat's ass about sexual assault.

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it's an unfalsifiable attempt to distract from what happened.
Aren't the questions themselves unfalsifiable?

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The questions themselves were quite simple and direct.
Simple is definitely a word I would use.

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She did not give a direct answer because she could not give a direct answer. That's entirely on her, no one else.
Meh, group failure. She should have known better and the people advising her should have prepared her better

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It is a kind of win.
Yes, for tikki torch waving *************. Glad we agree.

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Plagiarists shouldn't be put in charge of academic institutions. How is removing a plagiarist from being in charge of an academic institution NOT a win?
Because the people who actually believe she should be forced out due to plagiarism aren't celebrating it. They recognize it as the structural failure it was.

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Instead of complaining that the wrong people are calling it a win, you should start claiming it as a win for your own side, so that you can actually claim to be in favor of academic integrity. Because right now, it's looking like you don't really care about that, you're only giving it lip service.
I've said she should be forced to step down. I've never backed away from holding people I may agree with accountable.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 12:51 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"Now, each candidate will be behind a curtain and will president the university. Then the judges will decide, without seeing the candidate, which one presidented the best."

Yeah, I think this may not work with all positions and competitions.
Can be solved by an appropriate AI algorithm. Just agree on all the relevant factors and let the computer decide.

(Like that's going to happen either. )
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Old 3rd January 2024, 12:53 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"Now, each candidate will be behind a curtain and will president the university. Then the judges will decide, without seeing the candidate, which one presidented the best."

Yeah, I think this may not work with all positions and competitions.
Resolved.

Next item: anonymous resumes and CVs, for first- or second-round screening of applicants.

After that we can figure out what to do in cases where the unqualified applicant is being recommended via a personal network and thus bypasses the anonymous screening rounds.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 12:53 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Blind auditions are now being attacked from the left, because while they select the best musicians, they don't select a properly "diverse" group of musicians. It's now the left which is explicitly in favor of racial discrimination over meritocracy.
Sorry. I can't be responsible for the World being insane.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 01:17 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Can be solved by an appropriate AI algorithm. Just agree on all the relevant factors and let the computer decide.

(Like that's going to happen either. )
When AI gets good enough to excel at picking candidates for such jobs, it might just qualify for the job itself! But like I said in a later post, I think some jobs like this one might involve a lot of intangible qualifications. Like schmoozing, charm, and other skills used to pry money out of people, and rise to power in academic politics.

It seems more like casting an actor than hiring an IT person with a bulletpoint list of skills.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 01:20 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't think a university president's job --particularly of a large and famous institution like Harvard -- is analogous to a musician's job. Surely the former is largely about PR and academic (and actual) politics? In such a position race, appearance, sexuality, background, all of that stuff may well indeed matter to the work.

Unless presidents of Harvard teach classes and do academic research? Do they? Did this lady pop into the lecture hall and teach students? Spends her evenings grading papers? I suspect the job was more about expense account lunches with potential donors and attending fancy parties. Representing the university as [insert all your possible groups here] might well indeed be a part of the job.
I think the search for a university president should be like Iron Chef. Get them into a kitchen arena, give them a major problem facing the university, and they have one hour to whip up a solution to the problem, along with an appetizer, entree and dessert. Three celebrity panelists would choose who gets the job. My panelists would be Kathy Griffin, Carrot Top, and some J-pop girl star who doesn't speak English but just giggles a lot.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 01:24 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
When AI gets good enough to excel at picking candidates for such jobs, it might just qualify for the job itself! But like I said in a later post, I think some jobs like this one might involve a lot of intangible qualifications. Like schmoozing, charm, and other skills used to pry money out of people, and rise to power in academic politics.

It seems more like casting an actor than hiring an IT person with a bulletpoint list of skills.
Not an AI thread but, if a human can decide based on fuzzy stuff, then so can AI. We, like AI, make our "decisions" based on our inputs.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 01:28 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Not an AI thread but, if a human can decide based on fuzzy stuff, then so can AI. We, like AI, make our "decisions" based on our inputs.
But some of our inputs are instincts, gut feelings, and ideas we can't elucidate and don't understand ourselves. It would be tricky to teach an AI that kind of thing. Or teach it how to recognize charisma, charm, poise, or their opposites. "He's okay on paper, but just way too awkward in manner" is something that could kill a lot of job prospects but it's not exactly quantifiable.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 01:28 PM   #40
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Wasn't there an article a few years back, about Google trying to use an AI to help screen job applicants, and discovered that it had a racial bias? Apparently they'd trained it on a corpus of previous hires and their CVs, and the AI just applied the biased pattern in that corpus.
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