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Old 23rd May 2019, 11:04 AM   #3761
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Thank you for proving the point that you preach hypocrisy. You keep claiming that your bible tells you to give up money and yet [i]you don't give up money[.You're cooked here, Gaetan. Nobody will ever accept anything you say.
Getting rid of money is a decision we must take collectively, it will be of no help if i am the only one on earth to get rid of money.
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Old 23rd May 2019, 11:10 AM   #3762
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Getting rid of money is a decision we must take collectively, it will be of no help if i am the only one on earth to get rid of money.
You're the only one here who wants to be "spiritual". This is why we must abolish religion. Its sycophants want to impose their goofiness on normal people.

If I were to have a religion, it would be based on free sex workers. Do you want me to make you use a sex worker without paying? Or do you still think you should pay?
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Old 23rd May 2019, 12:21 PM   #3763
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
When people play any games they don't play only for money, when you go to play your rich sport, golf, do you play in order to make money?
Golf is for uppity white middle class people.

This is the rich sport I and my kind play:

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Old 23rd May 2019, 03:04 PM   #3764
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Getting rid of money is a decision we must take collectively, it will be of no help if i am the only one on earth to get rid of money.
Sure, but somebody has to start it. And who is better than you? :-)
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Old 23rd May 2019, 03:45 PM   #3765
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
My internet bill will be free of charge once the money will be abolished, isn't it nice?
Sure, it will indeed be free. You simply wont have any internet at all.
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Old 24th May 2019, 09:44 AM   #3766
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Originally Posted by curious cat View Post
Sure, but somebody has to start it. And who is better than you? :-)
I live in a real world and the world use money then i must follow their stupid rule. I was listening a report yesterday about people working in a shop and they were following courses to make them more productive but what about their social life, are people just live for a company to make more profit. They are so obsessed about their work that they don't even think about making love anymore.
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Old 24th May 2019, 09:49 AM   #3767
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I live in a real world
Facts not in evidence.
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Old 24th May 2019, 09:57 AM   #3768
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I live in a real world and the world use money
So at some level, you do realize that your religion is just fantasy.

Quote:
then i must follow their stupid rule. I was listening a report yesterday about people working in a shop and they were following courses to make them more productive but what about their social life, are people just live for a company to make more profit. They are so obsessed about their work that they don't even think about making love anymore.
When is the last time you did?
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Old 24th May 2019, 10:10 AM   #3769
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I live in a real world and the world use money then i must follow their stupid rule. I was listening a report yesterday about people working in a shop and they were following courses to make them more productive but what about their social life, are people just live for a company to make more profit. They are so obsessed about their work that they don't even think about making love anymore.
You said in you no money world, if more people wanted Ferraris, we would just make more. Thus people would have to do more work to create more Ferraris and they would live just to make more cars and to make it worse, their extra work gets them ZERO money. They'll be so obsessed with work they won't even think about making love anymore.
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:00 AM   #3770
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
You said in you no money world, if more people wanted Ferraris, we would just make more. Thus people would have to do more work to create more Ferraris and they would live just to make more cars and to make it worse, their extra work gets them ZERO money. They'll be so obsessed with work they won't even think about making love anymore.
In the world of no money there is no obligation to be more productive to satisfy the need of rich to make more money. There won't be competition between companies making products but mutual aid. As people won't need to track money or investments to work and useless products delete, there will be more people at work and then more time off for citizen working to fulfil the need of people. Every thing done will be recyclable and repairable and food waste used as compost. Pollution will be completely abolished then your Ferraris will be without polluant emission.

Last edited by Gaetan; 24th May 2019 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:20 AM   #3771
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In the world of no money there is no obligation to be more productive to satisfy the need of rich to make more money. There won't be competition between companies making products but mutual aid. As people won't need to track money or investments to work and useless products delete, there will be more people at work and then more time off for citizen working to fulfil the need of people. Every thing done will be recyclable and repairable and food waste used as compost. Pollution will be completely abolished then your Ferraris will be without polluant emission.
When will Jesus bring the pork-chops?
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:23 AM   #3772
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In the world of no money there is no obligation to be more productive to satisfy the need of rich to make more money. There won't be competition between companies making products but mutual aid. As people won't need to track money or investments to work and useless products delete, there will be more people at work and then more time off for citizen working to fulfil the need of people. Every thing done will be recyclable and repairable and food waste used as compost. Pollution will be completely abolished then your Ferraris will be without polluant emission.
And sex workers will be free. Don't forget that.
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Old 24th May 2019, 12:23 PM   #3773
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In the world of no money there is no obligation to be more productive.
That part of your quote is exactly why your no money world will fail. When things are "free", people will not be motivated to do any work.

In fact, look at the black Friday shopping as an example. People will trample and stampede, even killing others just to get cheaper stuff. Not even free.

Make it free and there will be riots and anarchy with people trying to "get theirs". Money is a safe and more viable solution, even if money may not be a perfect system.
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Old 24th May 2019, 02:14 PM   #3774
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I live in a real world and the world use money then i must follow their stupid rule. I was listening a report yesterday about people working in a shop and they were following courses to make them more productive but what about their social life, are people just live for a company to make more profit. They are so obsessed about their work that they don't even think about making love anymore.
You see, and you wont them to even increase their productivity to cover the demand of the masses getting everything for free. Ever heard about a vicious circle?
Edited: Sorry, Joecool! I didn't read your post until later :-).

Last edited by curious cat; 24th May 2019 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 24th May 2019, 04:59 PM   #3775
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Originally Posted by curious cat View Post
You see, and you wont them to even increase their productivity to cover the demand of the masses getting everything for free. Ever heard about a vicious circle?
Edited: Sorry, Joecool! I didn't read your post until later :-).
I said that the goods if there is need for more production will be provided not by the increase of productivity but by the more people affected to work.
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Old 24th May 2019, 05:04 PM   #3776
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I said that the goods if there is need for more production will be provided not by the increase of productivity but by the more people affected to work.
Why would anyone need to work if everything is free?
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Old 24th May 2019, 06:42 PM   #3777
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I said that the goods if there is need for more production will be provided not by the increase of productivity but by the more people affected to work.
So, now you have more people working - if they work, their needs will inevitably increase accordingly. You see, there is no escape from that vicious circle.
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Old 25th May 2019, 06:22 AM   #3778
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
That part of your quote is exactly why your no money world will fail. When things are "free", people will not be motivated to do any work.
What motivate you to work is to get goods and services, there is no change if you are paid for it or not.
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Old 25th May 2019, 06:25 AM   #3779
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What motivate you to work is to get goods and services, there is no change if you are paid for it or not.
But goods and services are free, right? Like sex workers won't be charging anything? I won't HAVE to work to get anything I want in your world?
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Old 25th May 2019, 08:19 AM   #3780
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What motivate you to work is to get goods and services, there is no change if you are paid for it or not.
But goods and services are free. Why should I be motivated to work?
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Old 25th May 2019, 08:31 AM   #3781
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
But goods and services are free. Why should I be motivated to work?
To have goods and services
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Old 25th May 2019, 08:33 AM   #3782
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I said that the goods if there is need for more production will be provided not by the increase of productivity but by the more people affected to work.
"more production will be provided" is an "increase of productivity". You appear to be claiming that "the more people affected to work" will result in them producing the same amount, or less, as when there was fewer "people affected to work".

Again, do please let us know when you can at least agree with just yourself.
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Old 25th May 2019, 08:46 AM   #3783
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
But goods and services are free. Why should I be motivated to work?
To have goods and services

Yet you have asserted that no one is obligated to work. So you simply working does, and can not, obligate others to provide you those "goods and services".
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Old 25th May 2019, 08:58 AM   #3784
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
To have goods and services
Then you've been lying about them being free? Typical hypocritical religious.
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Old 25th May 2019, 06:29 PM   #3785
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What motivate you to work is to get goods and services, there is no change if you are paid for it or not.
iWork so I can get paid in money. With the money, I buy goods and services that I want. If things were all free, I wouldn't be motivated to work anymore.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way Gaetan. If people don't work, there will be less production and free loaders will reign.
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Old 25th May 2019, 07:19 PM   #3786
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
To have goods and services
I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "motivation". Motivation is something, what prompts me to do something in order to obtain something what I wouldn't get otherwise.
If I can obtain goods and services for free, what would motivate me to work for them?

Last edited by curious cat; 25th May 2019 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 26th May 2019, 08:04 AM   #3787
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Originally Posted by curious cat View Post
I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "motivation". Motivation is something, what prompts me to do something in order to obtain something what I wouldn't get otherwise.
If I can obtain goods and services for free, what would motivate me to work for them?
Just take the Amerindians they didn't use money, they live by sharing foods, when they needed a long house they build it together, what motivate them is the need to have a better live, to be more efficient. Money is a tool brought by kings and dictators to take advantage of their population. It is a tool of slavery to serve the elites of countries.
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Old 26th May 2019, 08:34 AM   #3788
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Just take the Amerindians they didn't use money, they live by sharing foods, when they needed a long house they build it together, what motivate them is the need to have a better live, to be more efficient. Money is a tool brought by kings and dictators to take advantage of their population. It is a tool of slavery to serve the elites of countries.
https://nakamotoinstitute.org/shelling-out/


Quote:

The natives had money, but it was very different from the money Europeans were used to. American Indians had been using money for millenia, and quite useful money it turned out to be for the newly arrived Europeans Ė despite the prejudice among some that only metal with the faces of their political leaders stamped on it constituted real money. Worse, the New England natives used neither silver nor gold. Instead, they used the most appropriate money to be found in their environment Ė durable skeleton parts of their prey. Specifically, they used wampum, shells of the clam venus mercenaria and its relatives, strung onto pendants.

Can you at least try to get something, anything correct? That means actually researching stuff and not just pulling crap from your arse.
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Old 26th May 2019, 08:44 AM   #3789
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Just take the Amerindians they didn't use money, they live by sharing foods, when they needed a long house they build it together, what motivate them is the need to have a better live, to be more efficient. Money is a tool brought by kings and dictators to take advantage of their population. It is a tool of slavery to serve the elites of countries.
Religion was invented by the truly evil and corrupt to force everyone else to do their will. To worship them and give them money and free sex. Religious leaders just wanted to abuse children as they do now. Religion is an abomination that must be abolished. Religion is a tool of slavery to serve the religious elites.
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Old 26th May 2019, 09:56 AM   #3790
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
https://nakamotoinstitute.org/shelling-out/
Can you at least try to get something, anything correct? That means actually researching stuff and not just pulling crap from your arse.
They didn't use money because a tribe couldn't survive this way and so we do.

How did their economy work?
5 Answers
Weyodi O'Clerc Stern
Weyodi O'Clerc Stern, studied Being Comanche/Numunu
Answered Aug 21 2018 ∑ Author has 842 answers and 546.8k answer views
Interestingly none of the answers Iíve read fit with what I know of how things were done historically or even currently within my tribe.

We traditionally function internally with what is called a ďgift economyĒ. You see instead of individuals and families gaining social prestige by hoarding wealth in the form of money or things, we accumulate social power by giving things away. This way the person who has fed the most hungry people, given the most lavish gifts has the most respect and power.
Think of it this way, the most respected healer isnít the one who charges the most in exchange for their healing. No, itís the healer who not only heals the sick, they feed the sick personís family and sends everyone away with a gift when the healing is over.
People donít make themselves permanently destitute because every is competing to give more and better and raise their social status through generosity.

Historically a person couldnít come out and say they wanted to become agreed upon negotiator with the Europeans, no, if they wanted an official position within the band they had to campaign by giving away everything they could beg, borrow, or steal through raiding and hope someone else didnít manage to demonstrate even greater largesse.

We still celebrate milestones in our lives and our families accomplishments with ďgive awaysĒ where hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars worth of cash, groceries, clothing, and electronics are publicly distributed within the community to honor an individual or an event.

https://www.quora.com/What-did-the-N...r-economy-work

Last edited by Gaetan; 26th May 2019 at 10:03 AM.
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Old 26th May 2019, 12:19 PM   #3791
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
They didn't use money because a tribe couldn't survive this way and so we do.
They did use money, they did survive and there were were many different tribes. About 573 legally recognized by the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) of the United States.

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
How did their economy work?
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Weyodi O'Clerc Stern
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Answered Aug 21 2018 ∑ Author has 842 answers and 546.8k answer views
Interestingly none of the answers I’ve read fit with what I know of how things were done historically or even currently within my tribe.

We traditionally function internally with what is called a “gift economy”. You see instead of individuals and families gaining social prestige by hoarding wealth in the form of money or things, we accumulate social power by giving things away. This way the person who has fed the most hungry people, given the most lavish gifts has the most respect and power.
Think of it this way, the most respected healer isn’t the one who charges the most in exchange for their healing. No, it’s the healer who not only heals the sick, they feed the sick person’s family and sends everyone away with a gift when the healing is over.
People don’t make themselves permanently destitute because every is competing to give more and better and raise their social status through generosity.

Historically a person couldn’t come out and say they wanted to become agreed upon negotiator with the Europeans, no, if they wanted an official position within the band they had to campaign by giving away everything they could beg, borrow, or steal through raiding and hope someone else didn’t manage to demonstrate even greater largesse.

We still celebrate milestones in our lives and our families accomplishments with “give aways” where hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars worth of cash, groceries, clothing, and electronics are publicly distributed within the community to honor an individual or an event.

https://www.quora.com/What-did-the-N...r-economy-work
First, his claim is only to internal sociological functioning of his tribe and second, nowhere does he claim they didn't use money or trade with other tribes. You will note his claim of "...they had to campaign by giving away everything they could beg, borrow, or steal through raiding...". So you can't give away what you don't first acquire and demonstrably, just by his own assertions, some of that acquisition was not by gifts. Do better research on even just your own citations.
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Last edited by The Man; 26th May 2019 at 12:24 PM. Reason: added "of his tribe"
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Old 26th May 2019, 12:29 PM   #3792
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Well that's bizarre. Now, not only do we have to ditch money, we have to ditch all the material goods you said we would have for free?

And how would you know anything about it? If, as you claim, it is necessary to abolish money and material goods to obtain spirituality (whatever that is), then clearly you have not attained it either because you are using money and material goods to participate here.
Religion and "spirituality" aren't going to create a post-scarcity world. That's something science, technology and human ingenuity might deliver.
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Old 26th May 2019, 12:45 PM   #3793
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
they could beg, borrow, or steal
How do you steal things that are "free"?

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someone else didnít manage to demonstrate even greater largesse.
I can demonstrate the most largesse of anyone. Since everything in the world will be "free" in your fantasy, I'll just declare that everything in the world is mine. Then I'll give away everything but my yachts and mansions and supercars. I win.

Are you getting the idea yet of how goofy your fantasy is? Better to live by Jesus's words that "the laborer deserves his wages". Only followers of Moses think otherwise.
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Old 26th May 2019, 03:03 PM   #3794
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
They did use money, they did survive and there were were many different tribes. About 573 legally recognized by the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) of the United States.
To survive all these tribes had to live under the way of gift economy simply because all the wealth would fall in hands of few fellows and the rest of people would die from starvation, and so we do. We have to consider the whole world as a simple tribe otherwise we won't survive. Few follows have more wealth than 50% of poorer in the world, these people use their money to elect their dictators like Trump, Obama, or other criminals to keep that system who feed them of wealth going, it has to be an end to this monopoly game otherwise the whole world will die.

Last edited by Gaetan; 26th May 2019 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 26th May 2019, 03:24 PM   #3795
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
To survive all these tribes had to live under the way of gift economy simply because all the wealth would fall in hands of few fellows and the rest of people would die from starvation, and so we do. We have to consider the whole world as a simple tribe otherwise we won't survive. Few follows have more wealth than 50% of poorer in the world, these people use their money to elect their dictators like Trump, Obama, or other criminals to keep that system who feed them of wealth going, it has to be an end to this monopoly game otherwise the whole world will die.
Who elected Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen or Kenneth Copeland? They and all the other criminals prey on the weak minded to line their coffers with gold. All while convincing their brainless flock to get rid of their money. You'll notice that the religious criminal leaders aren't getting rid of their money. Have you gotten rid of yours?
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Old 26th May 2019, 04:02 PM   #3796
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
To have goods and services
But they are free. What motivates me to work when I have no need to do so?
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Old 26th May 2019, 04:07 PM   #3797
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
They didn't use money because a tribe couldn't survive this way and so we do.

How did their economy work?
5 Answers
Weyodi O'Clerc Stern
Weyodi O'Clerc Stern, studied Being Comanche/Numunu
Answered Aug 21 2018 ∑ Author has 842 answers and 546.8k answer views
Interestingly none of the answers Iíve read fit with what I know of how things were done historically or even currently within my tribe.

We traditionally function internally with what is called a ďgift economyĒ. You see instead of individuals and families gaining social prestige by hoarding wealth in the form of money or things, we accumulate social power by giving things away. This way the person who has fed the most hungry people, given the most lavish gifts has the most respect and power.
Think of it this way, the most respected healer isnít the one who charges the most in exchange for their healing. No, itís the healer who not only heals the sick, they feed the sick personís family and sends everyone away with a gift when the healing is over.
People donít make themselves permanently destitute because every is competing to give more and better and raise their social status through generosity.

Historically a person couldnít come out and say they wanted to become agreed upon negotiator with the Europeans, no, if they wanted an official position within the band they had to campaign by giving away everything they could beg, borrow, or steal through raiding and hope someone else didnít manage to demonstrate even greater largesse.

We still celebrate milestones in our lives and our families accomplishments with ďgive awaysĒ where hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars worth of cash, groceries, clothing, and electronics are publicly distributed within the community to honor an individual or an event.

https://www.quora.com/What-did-the-N...r-economy-work
WTF? I have to obtain my free goods by "stealing and raiding"? Really? That is what you are advocating?

It turns out we were all right all along. You want a return to barbarism.
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Old 26th May 2019, 04:11 PM   #3798
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
How do you steal things that are "free"?


I can demonstrate the most largesse of anyone. Since everything in the world will be "free" in your fantasy, I'll just declare that everything in the world is mine. Then I'll give away everything but my yachts and mansions and supercars. I win.

Are you getting the idea yet of how goofy your fantasy is? Better to live by Jesus's words that "the laborer deserves his wages". Only followers of Moses think otherwise.
Nope. He just advocated "stealing and raiding" as the methods to get your "free" stuff.

He has not thought this through.
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Old 26th May 2019, 04:13 PM   #3799
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
To survive all these tribes had to live under the way of gift economy simply because all the wealth would fall in hands of few fellows and the rest of people would die from starvation, and so we do.
No they didn't as we do not. Even your own citation, just for that one tribal example, notes that what was acquired wasn't just from gifts. Not even your own citation supports your claims.




Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
We have to consider the whole world as a simple tribe otherwise we won't survive. Few follows have more wealth than 50% of poorer in the world, these people use their money to elect their dictators like Trump, Obama, or other criminals to keep that system who feed them of wealth going, it has to be an end to this monopoly game otherwise the whole world will die.
Just as your expectations and failure to actually read your own citation don't translate into historical fact. Neither do your simple fears and misrepresentations translate into future certainty.
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Old 26th May 2019, 04:18 PM   #3800
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Nope. He just advocated "stealing and raiding" as the methods to get your "free" stuff.

He has not thought this through.
It seems at least somewhat of a theft economy may be getting a bit conflated with a gift economy.
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