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Tags murder cases , Oscar Pistorius , South Africa cases

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Old 3rd March 2016, 07:55 PM   #441
Desert Fox
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The reason why I say that is that I wonder if an earlier intervention of some type might have saved her life and prevented him from going the track he did.
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Old 3rd March 2016, 10:42 PM   #442
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
The reason why I say that is that I wonder if an earlier intervention of some type might have saved her life and prevented him from going the track he did.
Well, it's not as though there weren't a few clues that the guy was:

A Nuts
and
B A gun nut

Never a good combination.
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:22 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
The reason why I say that is that I wonder if an earlier intervention of some type might have saved her life and prevented him from going the track he did.
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Well, it's not as though there weren't a few clues that the guy was:

A Nuts
and
B A gun nut

Never a good combination.
I will attend dutifully to these questions, and also address all LondonJohn's points soon.
I regard it as implausible that Oscar deliberately shot his trophy girl friend. I have not the slightest doubt this can be unequivocally proved with correct analysis of the crime scene, phone records and transcripts.
I am not for bending on this. You may collectively find and describe that one data point, that grain of sand under the rhino skin to remove such certainty.

Last edited by Samson; 4th March 2016 at 04:41 AM.
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:37 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I will attend dutifully to these questions, and also address all LondonJohn's points soon.
I regard it as implausible that Oscar deliberately shot his trophy girl friend. I have not the slightest doubt this can be unequivocally proved with correct analysis of the crime scene, phone records and transcripts.
I am not for bending on this. You must collectively find and describe that one data point, that grain of sand under the rhino skin to remove my certainty.
What is his trophy girl friend was going to call it quits. Maybe he simply could not handle rejection.

The trouble is that the court basically ruled that it does not matter if you had the Son of Sam in your bathroom, it is still not lawful to shoot through the door.
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:51 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
.......I regard it as implausible that Oscar deliberately shot his trophy girl friend. .......
As it happens, and as you know, so do I. But that's irrelevant, as you've been told for months.


Originally Posted by Samson View Post
.......I have not the slightest doubt this can be unequivocally proved with correct analysis of the crime scene, phone records and transcripts.......
So what? It's irrelevant. He intentionally killed someone, and it matters not a jot that he didn't know who he might be killing.
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Old 4th March 2016, 12:00 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I regard it as implausible that Oscar deliberately shot his trophy girl friend.
Sure. And the Tooth Fairy will be around to collect your teeth shortly after the Easter Bunny leaves your Easter Eggs on the floor of your flying De Lorean.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I have not the slightest doubt this can be unequivocally proved with correct analysis of the crime scene, phone records and transcripts.
That says it all, really.

There's a name for immovable belief in something that can't be proved, but I forget what it's called.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I am not for bending on this. You may collectively find and describe that one data point, that grain of sand under the rhino skin to remove such certainty.
Who cares?

As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, it doesn't matter whether he thought it was Reeva - he's been correctly banged up, and banged up he shall stay.

Jeez, I hope they don't have the same rule as us and UK - that he has to acknowledge his guilt before he can get parole...
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Old 4th March 2016, 02:56 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Jeez, I hope they don't have the same rule as us and UK - that he has to acknowledge his guilt before he can get parole...
Especially when it has been shown that admitting guilt does not show a pattern of fewer cases of reoffending.
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:04 PM   #448
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I think it's an insane rule.

It encourages the guilty to lie about their remorse while punishing the innocent who rightly refuse to acknowledge guilt because they're not guilty.

We've had two famous cases like that here in the past few years: Peter Ellis & Teina Pora.
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Old 4th March 2016, 06:21 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
As it happens, and as you know, so do I. But that's irrelevant, as you've been told for months.




So what? It's irrelevant. He intentionally killed someone, and it matters not a jot that he didn't know who he might be killing.
It makes a difference to my thinking. If he set out to frighten or kill Reeva there are no mitigating circumstances. She was in the house as a guest not an intruder. It makes all the difference.
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Old 5th March 2016, 01:39 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It makes a difference to my thinking. If he set out to frighten or kill Reeva there are no mitigating circumstances. She was in the house as a guest not an intruder. It makes all the difference.
How many times do you have to be told that your thinking has no relevance to this case?

Are you trolling? Your erstwhile hero LondonJohn has clearly pointed out that IT DOESN"T MATTER IF SOMEONE OTHER THAN REEVA WAS IN THE TOILET. He is a murderer regardless.

I think, like many others, that he deliberately killed Reeva. BUT IT DOESN"T *********** MATTER.

Christ this is so frustrating.
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Old 5th March 2016, 04:01 AM   #451
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
How many times do you have to be told that your thinking has no relevance to this case?

Are you trolling? Your erstwhile hero LondonJohn has clearly pointed out that IT DOESN"T MATTER IF SOMEONE OTHER THAN REEVA WAS IN THE TOILET. He is a murderer regardless.

I think, like many others, that he deliberately killed Reeva. BUT IT DOESN"T *********** MATTER.

Christ this is so frustrating.
I think if it turned out to be a dead intruder armed with a machete Pistorius would not have been charged. However we need a sage analyst from the republic to answer this. There was a similar case where a man shot and killed his daughter thinking a man was stealing her car.

He was not charged.
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Old 5th March 2016, 04:05 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I think if it turned out to be a dead intruder armed with a machete Pistorius would not have been charged.........
Not so. There was a finding in law which was that he could be under no threat from behind a shut door. If Attila the Hun had been behind that door armed with a sub machine gun, it would still have been murder.
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Old 5th March 2016, 04:07 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It makes a difference to my thinking.........
Well thank christ you aren't a judge or prosecutor then.
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Old 5th March 2016, 04:49 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Not so. There was a finding in law which was that he could be under no threat from behind a shut door. If Attila the Hun had been behind that door armed with a sub machine gun, it would still have been murder.
This case has been cited earlier on the thread

While the pain of having killed his own child remains, former Springbok rugby player Rudi "Vleis" Visagie will find peace in the fact that he is not to be charged with her murder.

The anguished father, who accidentally killed his daughter three months ago, is believed to have suffered enough.


http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-afri...at-last-219358

Knock yourselves out describing the difference to the current case. There ain't none.
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Old 5th March 2016, 04:49 AM   #455
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I think if it turned out to be a dead intruder armed with a machete Pistorius would not have been charged. However we need a sage analyst from the republic to answer this. There was a similar case where a man shot and killed his daughter thinking a man was stealing her car.

He was not charged.
What you think, as has been demonstrated, is irrevalent. It is also idiotic. Give up.
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Old 5th March 2016, 04:50 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
What you think, as has been demonstrated, is irrevalent. It is also idiotic. Give up.
See post above. I am not giving up.
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Old 5th March 2016, 04:56 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
See post above. I am not giving up.
Every poor judgement means that Pistorius should also be poorly judged? Are you serious?

OJ Simpson wasn't convicted, so others shouldn't be?

A stupid argument.
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Old 5th March 2016, 05:22 AM   #458
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This case has been cited earlier on the thread

While the pain of having killed his own child remains, former Springbok rugby player Rudi "Vleis" Visagie will find peace in the fact that he is not to be charged with her murder.

The anguished father, who accidentally killed his daughter three months ago, is believed to have suffered enough.


http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-afri...at-last-219358

Knock yourselves out describing the difference to the current case. There ain't none.
Cheers all round if you think the punishment for auto theft should be capital. He was putting someone's life on the line, just didn't realise it was his daughters.

I see your point.
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Old 10th March 2016, 05:03 AM   #459
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I find it odd that anyone can believe that it's impossible for a man to want, in a fit of rage, to kill his 'trophy girlfriend' (can't we just call her his girlfriend?

Men assault beautiful women, whom they profess to love, all the time.

It is well documented that men and women have killed their spouses or partners in the past.

I don't understand why on earth anyone could think that it's a given that Oscar couldn't have deliberately shot Reeva just because she's beautiful and they were a couple. That seems, to me, to be a leap without any support at all.

And, as others have pointed out, it is totally irrelevant in terms of the legal outcome.
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Old 10th March 2016, 07:13 AM   #460
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Quote:
Men assault beautiful women, whom they profess to love, all the time.
<cough>

OJ Simpson.
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Old 10th March 2016, 07:58 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by snoop_doxie View Post
<cough>

OJ Simpson.
This is a bad analogy. He caught them together, no such parallel exists here.
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Old 10th March 2016, 12:10 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This is a bad analogy. He caught them together, no such parallel exists here.
Wow, that is one of the most stunning things I've ever read.

Whether you mean it or not, it seems to condone crime passionelle.
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Old 10th March 2016, 12:15 PM   #463
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Wow, that is one of the most stunning things I've ever read.

Whether you mean it or not, it seems to condone crime passionelle.

I think he means that a man will only kill his partner if he finds her with another man.

I still don't understand the thinking that gets one to this point.
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Old 10th March 2016, 01:37 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think he means that a man will only kill his partner if he finds her with another man.

I still don't understand the thinking that gets one to this point.
I can, but only because I think things like that propagate in families.

Funnily enough, if Oscar had had this trouble only 30 years ago, he could have claimed he shot her because she was bonking another bloke and he would have broken no law. White rule had some things going for it.
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Old 10th March 2016, 01:42 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This is a bad analogy. He caught them together, no such parallel exists here.
How about the battered women shelters basically everywhere?
Many of the women fear for their lives. Did they all cheat on their husband / partner?

Also, this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/1...n_5927140.html
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Old 10th March 2016, 03:50 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think he means that a man will only kill his partner if he finds her with another man.

I still don't understand the thinking that gets one to this point.
No, I think it is less likely, and vanishingly unlikely in the position Oscar was in. I think
1. He thought he had the intruder he always expected, and
2. It means the finding of murder is wrong, just as in the ex springbok case.
Note I am separating the function of law from the administration of justice.
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Old 11th March 2016, 12:56 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
......I think
1. He thought he had the intruder he always expected,
I agree.
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
2. It means the finding of murder is wrong,.........
Well, you are just plain flat out wrong on this, and incredibly stubborn in sticking to it. Even if it had been an armed intruder behind that bolted door, it would still have been murder.
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Old 11th March 2016, 01:16 AM   #468
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well, you are just plain flat out wrong on this, and incredibly stubborn in sticking to it. Even if it had been an armed intruder behind that bolted door, it would still have been murder.
Unless it was this guy:

It is always self defense to kill this guy even if you use a sniper rifle from 1000 yards
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Old 11th March 2016, 01:22 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well, you are just plain flat out wrong on this, and incredibly stubborn in sticking to it. Even if it had been an armed intruder behind that bolted door, it would still have been murder.
I think he's suggesting that the law itself is wrong, not the application of it. I think.
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Old 11th March 2016, 02:46 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
No, I think it is less likely, and vanishingly unlikely in the position Oscar was in.

I am genuinely baffled as to how you get to this.
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Old 11th March 2016, 03:36 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I am genuinely baffled as to how you get to this.
MikeG got there too, but differs on the ethical discussion that follows.
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Old 11th March 2016, 03:39 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Wow, that is one of the most stunning things I've ever read.

Whether you mean it or not, it seems to condone crime passionelle.
You mean Dominique Strauss-Kahn and the fastest chat up in history?
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Old 11th March 2016, 04:18 AM   #473
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
MikeG got there too, but differs on the ethical discussion that follows.

Got where? To an understanding of why someone would think, in a world full of domestic violence, in a country with what might be called a chequered history (although don't they all) that a very obviously angry young man couldn't hurt or kill his lover?

It just seems like one big argument from incredulity to me, which holds no logical weight whatsoever.
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Old 11th March 2016, 04:29 AM   #474
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Got where? To an understanding of why someone would think, in a world full of domestic violence, in a country with what might be called a chequered history (although don't they all) that a very obviously angry young man couldn't hurt or kill his lover?

It just seems like one big argument from incredulity to me, which holds no logical weight whatsoever.
Here is a list of a few people who appear to have bought it.

Judge Masipa
MikeG
icerat
Leila Schnepps
Samson

Are they all incredulous? I doubt it.
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Old 11th March 2016, 04:33 AM   #475
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Got where? To an understanding of why someone would think, in a world full of domestic violence, in a country with what might be called a chequered history (although don't they all) that a very obviously angry young man couldn't hurt or kill his lover?

It just seems like one big argument from incredulity to me, which holds no logical weight whatsoever.
Not at all. I just read the evidence as presented to the court and think the balance of probablities lies in favour of Pistorius' own description of his motives being correct. I saw nothing that ruled it out, and as none of us can mind-read, I accept (as I think the judge did), that he thought he was confronting an intruder. That doesn't for a second change my view that he committed murder.
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Old 11th March 2016, 06:34 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Here is a list of a few people who appear to have bought it.

Judge Masipa
MikeG
icerat
Leila Schnepps
Samson

Are they all incredulous? I doubt it.

Ah, then we may be talking at cross purposes.

I have no issue with a logical assessment of the case leading to a belief that Oscar was truthful.

I may have conflated your position with another poster who stated a belief that Oscar wouldn't kill Reva simply because she was his beautiful 'trophy' girlfriend and it wouldn't be logical for him to do it. Which struck me as fallacious.
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Old 11th March 2016, 03:03 PM   #477
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Ah, then we may be talking at cross purposes.

I have no issue with a logical assessment of the case leading to a belief that Oscar was truthful.

I may have conflated your position with another poster who stated a belief that Oscar wouldn't kill Reva simply because she was his beautiful 'trophy' girlfriend and it wouldn't be logical for him to do it. Which struck me as fallacious.
Fallacious in modal logic, but not in probability theory. We should have a long list of successful men with dead girl friends to contemplate.
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Old 11th March 2016, 05:09 PM   #478
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Fallacious in modal logic, but not in probability theory. We should have a long list of successful men with dead girl friends to contemplate.
If you're saying what I think you're saying, that's the bit I disagree with.
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Old 11th March 2016, 05:49 PM   #479
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Not at all. I just read the evidence as presented to the court and think the balance of probablities lies in favour of Pistorius' own description of his motives being correct. I saw nothing that ruled it out, and as none of us can mind-read, I accept (as I think the judge did), that he thought he was confronting an intruder. That doesn't for a second change my view that he committed murder.

I think there are several very solid reasons to suspect that Pistorius must have known it was Steenkamp behind that door. I think that his whole story simply doesn't stack up in relation to normal human experiences. He would have had to have walked right round past the bed on his way to investigate the noise, so he could (and, IMO, would) have checked that Steenkamp was in bed, and whispered or said to her to stay there and to call the security staff, before heading off to the bathroom armed with a high-power handgun.

In addition, by definition (if Pistorius' account is to be believed) there HAS to have been sufficient opportunity for Steenkamp to have slipped silently out of bed and walked to the bathroom area without Pistorius seeing or hearing anything - even though he says he was only bringing the fan in over a matter of seconds.

And also, I find it very hard to believe that Pistorius was (per his version) standing in the bathroom yelling "Get the ... out of my house!" directly towards the closed toilet door, and yet Steenkamp wouldn't have made some sort of calling out to tell Pistorius that it was her behind the bathroom door (given that if Pistorius' account is to be believed, Steenkamp would likely be aware that Pistorius hadn't seen or heard her slipping away from the bedroom to go to the toilet).

And then we add in other evidence of Pistorius' personality and his treatment of girlfriends, and I conclude that by some distance the most plausible narrative is one where Pistorius and Steenkamp had an escalating argument in the bedroom area, Steenkamp started to dress to leave (perhaps in response to Pistorius yelling "Get the ... out of my house!" at HER), Pistorius physically threatened Steenkamp in the bedroom area, Steenkamp dropped her jeans (as they were found in the bedroom) and ran to the toilet, locking herself in, Pistorius followed her on his stumps, then Steenkamp said (through the door) that she had her phone and she was going to call family/friend/security/police, tell them the threatening situation, and request assistance. I think this would have pushed Pistorius over the edge in rage - the combination of Steenkamp's unequivocal decision to leave him and (maybe more powerful) the thought of having his image and reputation damaged by a public accusation of abuse and physical violence towards Steenkamp. I think he really did fire somewhat reflexively at the point, in a blind rage - and almost immediately realised what he'd done and was overcome with remorse and grief.

But as you point out (and as I have done too), the issue of Pistorius' presumed identification of the person behind the door is wholly moot in the context of the criminal charge and the conviction. And as you also say, it's impossible to prove one way or the other whether Pistorius genuinely thought he was firing at an intruder or Steenkamp. That will be cold comfort to Steenkamp's family though, I suppose. I am guessing that all of Steenkamp's family believe that Pistorius knew it was her behind the door (not that that makes any difference intellectually or legally of course).
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Old 11th March 2016, 06:28 PM   #480
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Fallacious in modal logic, but not in probability theory. We should have a long list of successful men with dead girl friends to contemplate.
Uhhh, we do:

OJ Simpson
Gig Young
Sid Vicious
Phil Spector
Colin Thatcher
Robert Durst
Chris Foster

Need more? There are plenty.
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