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Old 1st October 2015, 02:31 AM   #41
Joey McGee
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Quote:
Perhaps most telling, 82% said that overthrowing the Taliban government was a good thing for Afghanistan, with just 11% saying it was a bad thing. In the war zone, 71% endorsed the Taliban’s overthrow while 16% saw it as a bad thing; in the north, 18% saw it as a bad thing.
Quote:
Equally large percentages endorse the US military presence in Afghanistan. Eighty-three percent said they have a favorable view of “the US military forces in our country” (39% very favorable). Just 17% have an unfavorable view.
Quote:
Afghans were also asked whether they approve or disapprove of US military forces “conducting operations to capture or kill al-Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan.” This has been controversial, as Afghan civilians have at times been killed or wounded in these efforts. Nonetheless, overall 79% said they approve, with just 13% disapproving. In the east and south-central regions where most US operations take place, approval was 10 points lower at 69%, while one in five (20%) said they disapproved.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi...55.php?lb=bras

So basically, everything you believe about Afghanistan is wrong.
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Old 1st October 2015, 04:13 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
How many people were dying in Afghanistan before the invasion?
A lot, the difference was that no-one was counting them all like they do now.

Originally Posted by Wiki
According to a 55-page report by the United Nations, the Taliban, while trying to consolidate control over northern and western Afghanistan, committed systematic massacres against civilians. UN officials stated that there had been "15 massacres" between 1996 and 2001. They also said, that "[t]hese have been highly systematic and they all lead back to the [Taliban] Ministry of Defense or to Mullah Omar himself." The Taliban especially targeted Shias or Hazaras.
The Taliban would go into an area kill people, smash the water systems, destroy the crops, and chase the people out of their villages into the wilderness. At the time the US went in the UN was predicting that millions of people would die of starvation and hypothermia in the winter of 2001/2.

Seems people have short memories.

Quote:
How long before the Taliban re-take the entire country?
Hopefully they won't. If the Afghani government is given support to combat them, then they won't.

Quote:
They control 15% but are influencing much larger areas.
It's easier to influence an area than control it.

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I will gladly (and have already) stated that as of this minute, most Afghans are better off than pre-2001. That is balanced by the lack of war inside the country at that time.
wha..... speaking of short memories. There has been constant civil war in Afghanistan since 1978!

Quote:
As usual, it depends what you think it "better" an evil government that nevertheless allows people to live a life, or be in constant danger of bombing? (from either side)
Seriously? Anyone that wasn't the right tribe or sect they massacred, they destroyed livelihoods, they destroyed food crops, irrigation and water systems. They stoned men and women who didn't follow their strict rules. Millions of people ended up living in the open wilderness because of them facing imminent starvation. More fled to Pakistan and the northern regions to get away from them. They serious did not allow people to live a life in any meaningful way of the word. So in answer to your question, and from what has been posted the people of Afghanistan agree, I'd take freedom with a chance of bombing over the slavery offered by the likes of the Taliban any day of the week.

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While I despise them, I don't believe any of those crimes against humanity rate the death penalty.
Funny thing, the Taliban do. They were quite happy to execute people for doing those things.
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Old 1st October 2015, 05:01 AM   #43
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The indoctrination is strong in that one.
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Old 1st October 2015, 01:10 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_...tan_(19962001)

Why do you pretend to know what you're talking about?
Perfect!

Hoist, petard, self.

Whine, whine, link to empty page.

Try again.
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Old 1st October 2015, 01:16 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Perfect!

Hoist, petard, self.

Whine, whine, link to empty page.

Try again.
While you're dong that, the rest of us will have a conversation.
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Old 1st October 2015, 01:26 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
wha..... speaking of short memories. There has been constant civil war in Afghanistan since 1978!


You're trying to prove things have improved because there was a civil war before the invasion and also since the invaders have [largely] left?

Brilliant!

If you want short memories, I've already pointed out that A'stan has been at war with itself for centuries, not decades.

So, here we are in 2015, still at war with itself and you're falling over yourself to prove that things are better.

As to potential famine as justification for the invasion, that is patently untrue.

If 9/11 hadn't gone down, USA would not have attacked A'stan to save a few peasants, just as they didn't attack Zimbabwe, CAR, Uganda, Somalia, Chad, North Korea, Sudan, or Rwanda to save a few peasants.

Last edited by The Atheist; 1st October 2015 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 1st October 2015, 01:29 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
The indoctrination is strong in that one.
Quite funny - that's exactly how I see people arguing against me on this.

How could anyone be so indoctrinated to support a war that their side cannot win, that is none of their damned business and which is still on at least half-burn after 14 years?
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Old 1st October 2015, 01:50 PM   #48
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You clearly say that there was a lack of war before the invasion, then try to claim you said there was war for centuries. The only thing you had to point out I got wrong was a simple mistake with the link, so you did... Admit it, you're talking out your ass and can't get your lies straight. You know you don't know what you're talking about...

The people who live in Afghanistan, they're happy the Taliban's gone, they think it's a good thing... not you! Armchair historian who knows jack **** about the country is such a moral genius and epic keyboard warrior, doesn't even have to research his claims! You'll be the one to tell the Afghan people they should be horrified the big bad Americans came to take out the group that attacked them...

In your mind, the presence of war is like a binary yes or no good and bad thing. Things can't possibly be better... they are still shooting each other! This is so anti-intellectual and juvenile, of course people think you're a Poe.

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Old 1st October 2015, 02:24 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
You clearly say that there was a lack of war before the invasion, then try to claim you said there was war for centuries.
I would contend that prior to the invasion, in 2000-2001, that era of civil war was over, with Taliban in control of the entire country.

If that's wrong, and you can show that with some evidence, I will gladly withdraw my comment.

It's not going to change the glaring point that Afghanistan is no better off now than in 2001, 1991, 1981, or even 1781.

Aside from some improvements made during the occupation that I think are extremely unlikely to last, in the face of an enemy which will not give up.
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Old 1st October 2015, 02:29 PM   #50
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How about you try to find evidence for your braindead theories all by yourself? Onus on the claimant after all...

Didn't you know one of the main things about the skeptics movement is fighting against motivated reasoning in oneself? Why have you missed this important lesson?
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Old 1st October 2015, 03:44 PM   #51
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I am getting the feeling that someone has gone troll on us.
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Old 1st October 2015, 04:27 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You're trying to prove things have improved because there was a civil war before the invasion and also since the invaders have [largely] left?
Things have improved. People can live in their homes without being rounded up and shot. They have new power stations, water treatment, irrigation for crops, they can grow crops. Most Afghani's who actually live there are saying things have improved and are far better now then under the Taliban.

Quote:
If you want short memories, I've already pointed out that A'stan has been at war with itself for centuries, not decades.
You were the one that said there was no war before the invasion in 2001

Quote:
So, here we are in 2015, still at war with itself and you're falling over yourself to prove that things are better.
I don't have to fall over myself, the people actually living there are saying that things are better. Who to believe? Those that live in the country and have to deal with it on a daily basis, or someone on the internet that lives half a world away and has never set foot in the country.... gee, hard choice that.

Quote:
As to potential famine as justification for the invasion, that is patently untrue.
Learn to read. It was never used as a justification for invasion. It was stated as a fact. Had the US not invaded 1.5 to 2 million people would have died directly because of the Taliban's actions against them. The US didn't go in to save them, but it was a consequence of the US invading that they were able to return to their homes and survive the winter rather then facing starvation in the wilderness which was and would have been their reality under the Taliban. How in the world is that better than now?

Quote:
If 9/11 hadn't gone down, USA would not have attacked A'stan to save a few peasants
No one said they did. The US attacked the Taliban because they were sheltering Al Qaeda.

Quote:
just as they didn't attack Zimbabwe, CAR, Uganda, Somalia, Chad, North Korea, Sudan, or Rwanda to save a few peasants.
You are aware that the US actually did attack North Korea? Right... the whole Korean War thing? M*A*S*H... ring any bells

France has taken the lead in CAR and Chad, as noted previously, so yes Western Nations are there.

The US did go into Somalia, you might remember the whole Blackhawk down thing? They even made a movie about it.

The US Backed African Union has taken the lead in Sudan and Darfur, again previously noted and also Somalia and Uganda, in fact, oh look, US Officials going there and discussing it just the other day

Rwanda actually had UN forces in it before the massacre, and that was a total pooch screw by the UN because they knew what was coming and fled, allowing it to occur. I'm not sure how this was the US's fault, but I'm sure you'll figure it out since you believe everything is.

As for Zimbabwe, while bad and extremely messed up with pro-government mobs and a destroyed economy, the Mugabe government isn't mass murdering its citizens at the present time, nor recently. Yes that was done back in the 1980's under Mugabe's orders, but other then the country being an economic disaster zone, with all the incumbent issues that comes with that, I'm unsure why you think the US should attack it.
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Old 1st October 2015, 04:42 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I would contend that prior to the invasion, in 2000-2001, that era of civil war was over, with Taliban in control of the entire country.
Umm, no, they controlled at maximum 90% of the country

Quote:
If that's wrong, and you can show that with some evidence, I will gladly withdraw my comment.
So you were and are totally unaware that the Northern Alliance, you know the guys the US supported and had do most of the ground fighting in 2001 were still at war with the Taliban? Seriously, if you didn't know that, well...

Quote:
It's not going to change the glaring point that Afghanistan is no better off now than in 2001, 1991, 1981, or even 1781.
And yet the crazy people that live there say that it is. I mean, gee how could it possibly be better right? Having freedom to do what you want to do, say what you want to say, worship your god as you want to, or not, all rather than having to live under the tyranny of Communism or Sharia Law, that dictates your every move with a sentence of death is you get it wrong. Nope, can't see how it could possibly be better now.

Quote:
Aside from some improvements made during the occupation that I think are extremely unlikely to last, in the face of an enemy which will not give up.
So your option is to give up your freedom and live as a slave of you are lucky enough to be of the ones allowed to live?
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Old 1st October 2015, 06:39 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Things have improved.
Sure they have, as the Taliban opens a whole new front in the war...

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/01/as...aliban-attack/

(CNN but appears well sourced)
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Old 1st October 2015, 06:50 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You are aware that the US actually did attack North Korea? Right... the whole Korean War thing? M*A*S*H... ring any bells
Since my old man was an active participant, sure.

1 It was in the '50s, which is hardly relevant to USA lack of action during famines that have killed millions.

2 It was a UN action, not a US action, or maybe you don't know that?

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
France has taken the lead in CAR and Chad, as noted previously, so yes Western Nations are there.
Excellent choices!

CAR has just delayed elections due to ongoing violence.

Been to Chad lately?

Efforts there don't seem to be going too well.


Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The US did go into Somalia, you might remember the whole Blackhawk down thing? They even made a movie about it.


One mission: failed so badly they had to make a movie about it, containing so much lying propaganda it was hysterically funny.

USA took action in Somalia.

Are you writing for Tui now?

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
... the Mugabe government isn't mass murdering its citizens at the present time, nor recently. Yes that was done back in the 1980's under Mugabe's orders, ....
So, the 1950s is relevant, but not the 1980s.

Selective much?
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Old 1st October 2015, 06:55 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Umm, no, they controlled at maximum 90% of the country



So you were and are totally unaware that the Northern Alliance, you know the guys the US supported and had do most of the ground fighting in 2001 were still at war with the Taliban? Seriously, if you didn't know that, well...
Your contradictions are killing you.

Right now, you said Taliban only control 15%, so wasn't as bad as 2001.

Now, where you say the NA controlled 10% in 2001 it was still civil war and worse than right now.

You are tying yourself in knots mate.
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Old 1st October 2015, 07:35 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
One mission: failed so badly they had to make a movie about it, containing so much lying propaganda it was hysterically funny.
I won't hold my breath waiting for you to back that claim up.
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Old 1st October 2015, 07:41 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
One mission: failed so badly they had to make a movie about it, containing so much lying propaganda it was hysterically funny.

USA took action in Somalia.

Are you writing for Tui now?
Actually, there was more action in Somalia than the infamous Day of the Ranger. There was stuff going on when I was working some ops in CENTCOM in 2004, and stuff before and after that as well.

It's a different sort of effort there, now that the somewhat heavy handed means begun by Bush 41 has been replaced by another approach. It's had mixed results, some good and some not so good.

One of the groups of folk I worked with was called "Task Force HOA" but we of course pronounced it in the smart arsed way. (HOA for Horn of Africa)
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Old 1st October 2015, 08:04 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Actually, there was more action in Somalia than the infamous Day of the Ranger. There was stuff going on when I was working some ops in CENTCOM in 2004, and stuff before and after that as well.

It's a different sort of effort there, now that the somewhat heavy handed means begun by Bush 41 has been replaced by another approach. It's had mixed results, some good and some not so good.

One of the groups of folk I worked with was called "Task Force HOA" but we of course pronounced it in the smart arsed way. (HOA for Horn of Africa)
Thanks for that - you know I can always take you at your word.

I knew they'd done a little more than the one mission, but when that film gets mentioned, I always have a bit of a snark.

Still an absolute mess. Beggars belief how this crap keeps happening.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-somalia-peril

My smart answer to the whole area is build an enormous wall around the whole ME and leave them to it.

Pity it's not very practical.
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Old 1st October 2015, 11:29 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Since my old man was an active participant, sure.

1 It was in the '50s, which is hardly relevant to USA lack of action during famines that have killed millions.

2 It was a UN action, not a US action, or maybe you don't know that?
1) So why did you bring them up? What have they done lately that makes them deserving of attack?

2) Yes I am aware, I'm also aware the it was US Lead and the bulk of the forces were US.

Quote:
So because Western troops being there doesn't stop the violence instantly.... what?

Quote:
One mission: failed so badly they had to make a movie about it, containing so much lying propaganda it was hysterically funny.

USA took action in Somalia.
You clearly don't know a lot about what happen. In actual fail the mission didn't fail, and even in the Battle of Mogadishu, it was a victory for the US armed forces. The issue was political. Americans at the time weren't willing to allow their troops to be killed in overseas actions, especially after the loses in Vietnam and then so few loses in Desert Storm/Shield. It was the political fall out the killed the mission, but any military failures.

Quote:
So, the 1950s is relevant, but not the 1980s.

Selective much?
You were the one that selected North Korea and Zimbabwe, I just pointed out the facts that the US had attacked NK, and had no reason to attack Zimbabwe today. They have no reason to attack NK today either, which is why they don't.
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Old 1st October 2015, 11:34 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Your contradictions are killing you.

Right now, you said Taliban only control 15%, so wasn't as bad as 2001.

Now, where you say the NA controlled 10% in 2001 it was still civil war and worse than right now.

You are tying yourself in knots mate.
You really are trolling right?

You honestly don't believe that there is any difference between 90% of Afghanistan living in a Taliban controlled tyranny under their death cult sharia law, and 85% of Afghanistan living under a democratically elected government with rights and freedoms that you can claim without being executed for it?

It seems to me that in these threads that you honestly believe that there is no difference between living under tyranny with the likes of the Third Reich, ISIS, The Taliban, Stalinist Russia, or North Korea, and living under a democratically elected secular government with all the rights and privileges of doing so.
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Old 2nd October 2015, 01:17 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
1) So why did you bring them up? What have they done lately that makes them deserving of attack?
Helping the people avoid the famine caused by a despotic dictator.

You obviously hadn't heard of it.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
In actual fail the mission didn't fail,...
Freud loves you, man.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You really are trolling right?
I love the way so many people call troll when someone disagrees with a popular opinion and they don't have a rational response.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You honestly don't believe that there is any difference between 90% of Afghanistan living in a Taliban controlled tyranny under their death cult sharia law, and 85% of Afghanistan living under a democratically elected government with rights and freedoms that you can claim without being executed for it?
You are treating the numbers with complete dishonesty.

It isn't a case of 90% living in some paradisical A'stan where they grow roses and sip tea while watching the U20 cricket team - 10% is completely controlled and about a further 40% is disputed. Almost half the country is anything but at peace.

Why don't you open your eyes and see what is actually going on?

Kabul is such a nice, settled place these days.

Oops, there's that nice game of cricket.

Just your typical 4 dead, 13 injured scenario.

3 dead, 21 injured in two blasts.

Just in the past couple of weeks.

Afghanistan is safer!

Betcha hotels are dirt cheap there.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It seems to me that in these threads that you honestly believe that there is no difference between living under tyranny ...
And you clearly have not been following the thread or are making it up. I have said the exact opposite of what you're claiming on many occasions.
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Old 2nd October 2015, 01:38 AM   #63
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"I love the way so many people call troll when someone disagrees with a popular opinion and they don't have a rational response."

Deep down no one wants to believe that it's possible for other people to be that stupid and ignorant.
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Old 2nd October 2015, 03:29 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Helping the people avoid the famine caused by a despotic dictator.

You obviously hadn't heard of it.
So you are advocating that the US should be attacking anywhere that people are starving, great idea. Perhaps they'll add South Auckland to the list.

Quote:
You are treating the numbers with complete dishonesty.

It isn't a case of 90% living in some paradisical A'stan where they grow roses and sip tea while watching the U20 cricket team - 10% is completely controlled and about a further 40% is disputed. Almost half the country is anything but at peace.

Why don't you open your eyes and see what is actually going on?

Kabul is such a nice, settled place these days.

Oops, there's that nice game of cricket.

Just your typical 4 dead, 13 injured scenario.

3 dead, 21 injured in two blasts.

Just in the past couple of weeks.

Afghanistan is safer!
7 dead and 40 odd injured in 2 weeks? When the Taliban were in charge they were killing more people in a day, so yes, it is safer now. This is what you don't seem to comprehend. The Taliban conducted massacres, and mass executions of people not following its rules. Plus they had bombs going off and war. Now the Government isn't systematically killing it's own people, and they have freedoms they didn't under the Taliban, thus, yes it is better. You seem to have a warped view that better can only mean perfect. It doesn't, it means it is better than it was.

Quote:
And you clearly have not been following the thread or are making it up. I have said the exact opposite of what you're claiming on many occasions.
The problem is that you claim this, and then turn around and oppose what you claimed by saying that living under a democratically elected government where you are free to live as you want, is worse than living under a tyranny that was slaughtering people and forcing them out into the wilderness in the middle of a famine they helped create so they'd all stave, just because there are occasional bombings. There are nearly 3 million people living in Kabul, there are an estimated 10,000 road deaths in Afghanistan every year. This year is looking at about 3,000 civilians killed. You have 3x more likely to die in a traffic accident in Afghanistan than you are in a bombing or shooting.

In 2000 there was 20 million people in Afghanistan. 10 million were suffering from a famine that the Taliban exacerbated with their policies and actions. That was 50% of the population with an estimated 5-10% of them likely to die had their not been intervention. So if you lived in in Afghanistan in 2000, you'd have had a 1 in 2 chance of struggling to find your next meal, and a 1 in five chance of starving to death, if you weren't killed in all the other ways, massacres, executions, bombings, fighting. Now you would have a 0.01% chance of being killed by a bomb or in a shooting, and yet this is somehow worse. And you wonder why people think you are trolling?
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Old 2nd October 2015, 07:04 AM   #65
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He isn't trolling. He is a true believer.
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Old 2nd October 2015, 01:26 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
So you are advocating that the US should be attacking anywhere that people are starving, great idea. Perhaps they'll add South Auckland to the list.
Would sure as hell improve it.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
7 dead and 40 odd injured in 2 weeks?
There were a lot more than that in just the links I gave you, plus I wasn't trying very hard - I just picked the first three that came up.

And if you think those were the only attacks in that period, you are seriously deluded. Most of them never make the press. Like USA - we hear of the murders with 10 dead, but not a word about the 88 who die from gunshot wounds every day of the week.

Do you seriously think a few news reports accurately portray what's going on in A'stan?
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Old 2nd October 2015, 01:38 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
And you wonder why people think you are trolling?
No, I don't wonder at all - I find it absolutely hysterically funny.

People get called trolls when the residents have neither the argument nor ability to counter the argument made.

Seriously - trying to convince someone like in A'stan is a bunch of roses thanks to the wonderful American saviours is more trolling than the opposite.

Oh yeah, but, but surveys....

Taken any lately?

2014 - ranked 96th out of 96 countries in lifestyle of the aged, losing to such magnificent places as West Bank and Malawi.

And that's after 13 whole years of that improvement in lifestyle you keep chirping about.

I'm happy to let Afghans speak for themselves:

In 2014 a majority of Afghans (65.4%) report always, often, or sometimes fearing for their safety or security or that of their family. Fear for safety has increased since 2013 (59.0%), and since 2006 fear for safety has been on an overall upward trend.

The provinces reporting the highest levels of fear for personal safety are Faryab (92.1%), Wardak (89.2%), Farah (87.5%), and Kunduz (87.5%).

The provinces most likely to report never or rarely experiencing fear are Panjshir (98.5%), Badakhshan (81.7), and Bamyan (74.9%). Around three quarters of Afghans say they would be afraid when traveling within Afghanistan (76.4%).

A clear majority would be afraid to participate in a peaceful demonstration (69.4%), run for public office (70.8%), and encounter international forces (76.6%).

https://asiafoundation.org/resources...n2014final.pdf

Clearly a good place - my apologies for doubting your word.

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Old 2nd October 2015, 01:46 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Clearly a good place - my apologies for doubting your word.
The choice was never between Afghanistan being a good place to live and being a bad place to live. The choice was between bad and worse. Wonder why there aren't such surveys showing how much life sucked under the Taliban? Because it wasn't even safe enough to conduct such surveys.

People vote with their feet. What happened to the number of Afghan refugees after our invasion?
http://www.unhcr.org/421316072.html
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Old 2nd October 2015, 03:58 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
My smart answer to the whole area is build an enormous wall around the whole ME and leave them to it.

Pity it's not very practical.
Amigo:
The wall the Russians built worked for about a generation.
The wall the Israelis have built isn't making things much better for them.
That stupid wall some of our pols have supported vis a vis Mexico has done BloodyForkAll to deal with the problem to hand, which is a bizarre immigration policy.
A wall around the middle east? Nah, waste of good brick.
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Old 2nd October 2015, 04:33 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The choice was never between Afghanistan being a good place to live and being a bad place to live. The choice was between bad and worse. Wonder why there aren't such surveys showing how much life sucked under the Taliban? Because it wasn't even safe enough to conduct such surveys.

People vote with their feet. What happened to the number of Afghan refugees after our invasion?
http://www.unhcr.org/421316072.html
I've already said things improved for a while.

That seems to have turned.

It's not just me, either.

Boston Globe, National Post, Bloomberg - no matter where you look, the analysis is pretty consistent.

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Amigo:
The wall the Russians built worked for about a generation.
The wall the Israelis have built isn't making things much better for them.
That stupid wall some of our pols have supported vis a vis Mexico has done BloodyForkAll to deal with the problem to hand, which is a bizarre immigration policy.
A wall around the middle east? Nah, waste of good brick.
Yeah, I know - I was being disingenuous myself.

It doesn't even need a wall in reality - they're pretty well cut off from the rest of the world anyway. If you leave them alone long enough, they'd most likely kill themselves off in no time.

Now, if we can just get Scotty back to build us a forcefield, we'd be fine.
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Old 2nd October 2015, 04:35 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
The wall the Israelis have built isn't making things much better for them.
Yes it is. It pretty much put a stop to suicide bombings within Israel.
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Old 2nd October 2015, 04:36 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I

It doesn't even need a wall in reality - they're pretty well cut off from the rest of the world anyway. If you leave them alone long enough, they'd most likely kill themselves off in no time.

Now, if we can just get Scotty back to build us a forcefield, we'd be fine.
Just keep pumpin' the oil outta there. It will eventually run out.
And then
Nobody will care about them, at all.
As it should be.
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Old 2nd October 2015, 09:36 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
https://asiafoundation.org/resources...n2014final.pdf

Clearly a good place - my apologies for doubting your word.
I find it interesting that you didn't note how 54.7% believe that the country is moving in the right direction, which has trended upwards since 2006, or that 32.8% claim that reason for optimism is good security (only 5.5% less then the 38.3% that felt that security was bad.) I also noted you missed out that on a local level on 14.1% considered security to be the biggest issue, most putting the likes of Unemployment and services well ahead of it.

You also managed to avoid that 78.6% say that they are happy. You also missed out that there are provinces extremely high in the lack of fear... provinces most likely to report never or rarely experiencing fear are Panjshir (98.5%), Badakhshan (81.7), and Bamyan (74.9%).

You seem to have missing that only 15.6% of the respondents had actually suffered from violence or crime, meaning that 84.4% had not.

You also missed that they are more confident in their own forces abilities - Using a composite measure of overall confidence, 86.5% of Afghans are confident in the ANA, and 73.2% are confident in the ANP. Overall perceptions of the ANA and ANP have improved over time, and more so for the ANA than the ANP.

Most Afghanis are happy with their Government - 75.3% of Afghans say the national government does a somewhat good or very good job. Around two-thirds say provincial government is doing a good job (67.6%), followed by municipal authorities (58.5%) and district government (56.7%). Views in 2014 are quite similar to 2013.

When asked if they are satisfied with the way democracy works in Afghanistan, 73.1% say they feel somewhat satisfied or very satisfied

And yes they do feel less safe running or going to protests, but over all - In 2014, 67.4% of Afghans surveyed said they feel very safe or somewhat safe expressing their opinions about the government in public. Residents of Parwan (94.3%), Panjshir (91.9%), and Samangan (86.0%) provinces are most likely to say they feel safe criticizing the government. !e provinces where people feel the least safe doing so are Uruzghan (43.9%), Ghor (49.2%), Herat (51.3%), and Zabul (51.9%). Afghans living in urban areas (76.2%) are more likely to feel safe speaking out about the government in public than those in rural areas (64.5%).

Wow, they can actually express their opinions of the Government in public without being executed for it, and they like it, astonishing. 70% might be afraid of participating in a peaceful demonstration, but what do you think that figure was under the Taliban? I'm going to go with about 100%.

And while over half (61.6%) of Afghans surveyed say that they were somewhat or very concerned about security threats during the election, in actual fact of only 11.6% [of those who did not vote] say they did not vote due to insecurity. How many didn't vote under the Taliban? Oh that's right, they didn't get to vote!

Television ownership has risen from 36.9% in 2007 to 58.3% in 2014, while the use of television as a source of news and information increased from 54.8% in 2013 to 58.4% in 2014. Internet use also increased from 3.2% in 2013 to 5.6% in 2014, and has nearly doubled in urban areas over the past year.

Remember the Taliban banned Television and shut down all broadcasting, even made it illegal to own a TV set.

Around two-thirds of Afghans (64.0%) say they believe the result of the presidential election will make their lives better, a significant increase from 56.4% in 2013.

Interesting that you cherry picked your data from the survey, and more interesting that in trying to show how bad it was now, you failed to actually show a comparison to how it was pre-2001. Or have you forgotten your claim that it was better under the Taliban then than it is under the Afghani Government now?
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Old 3rd October 2015, 10:08 AM   #74
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@Ziggurat: I am not convinced that the wall is what has slowed that down. Such simplified cause and effect conclusions get the hairs up on the back of my neck.
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Old 3rd October 2015, 02:26 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Just keep pumpin' the oil outta there. It will eventually run out.
And then
Nobody will care about them, at all.
As it should be.
No problem with that - just a pity it's taking so long!

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I find it interesting that you didn't note how 54.7% believe that the country is moving in the right direction, which has trended upwards since 2006, ...
This is when I know you have nothing at all.

That survey was in 2014 - a whole year ago.

Even then, a lousy just-over-half thought things were going ok.

I am willing to bet plenty if you asked that question today it would be a great deal different.
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Old 3rd October 2015, 03:55 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
This is when I know you have nothing at all.

That survey was in 2014 - a whole year ago.

Even then, a lousy just-over-half thought things were going ok.

I am willing to bet plenty if you asked that question today it would be a great deal different.
Seriously, you have lost your focus so much on trying to win, you seem to have forgotten what it was you are arguing about. Let me remind you since your short memory has faded.

Originally Posted by The Atheist
That's no improvement on the state prior to 9/11, and I would certainly call it a deterioration
Do you honestly believe that over 50% of Afghanis in 2001 would have freely claimed that their country was headed in the right direction? Seriously? This seems to be where you go off the planet. Rather then trying to show what you actually claimed, that the people of Afghanistan were better off under the Taliban, you are merely showing that life isn't perfect there and then somehow expecting that to equal your argument. It doesn't Life in Afghanistan currently might not be perfect, but it is considerably better than it was under the tyrannical hellish leadership of the Taliban. You seem to fail to grasp this very simple fact. It's like you are trying to claim that the Jews were better off under Nazi Germany than they are living in Israel today because Hamas keeps firing rockets over the border at them. You're totally delusional.

Oh, and by the way. In December 2014, a whole 3.3% more of New Zealanders, (58%) stated that they believed that New Zealand was headed in the right direction. In September of 2013 it was at just 48% with 41% believing it was heading in the wrong direction. Those stats are worse than Afghanistan's. Perhaps we should invite the Taliban to take over here so we can be better off to, right?
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Old 3rd October 2015, 05:55 PM   #77
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In recent news from Kunduz
Quote:
Aerial bombardments blew apart a Doctors Without Borders hospital in the battleground Afghan city of Kunduz about the time of a U.S. airstrike early Saturday, killing at least 19 people, officials said.
The RoE finally let the US strike the real enemy, I suppose.
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Old 4th October 2015, 01:57 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Seriously, you have lost your focus so much on trying to win, you seem to have forgotten what it was you are arguing about. Let me remind you since your short memory has faded.
No worries - I'll gladly admit to being hyperbolic, and deliberately so.

The point is, 14 years - yes fourteen years - after the great US invasion, Afghanistan is still a huge, ugly mess, virtually on the brink of civil war.

So, it was better for a while.

I'll bet that's a great comfort to the families of the dead.

I'm not even going to bother arguing that the data we're using is outdated and not likely to bear relationship to how people feel there today.
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Old 4th October 2015, 02:39 AM   #79
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Well, I read it and appreciated it, Wolf.

There is a new book out called Superforecasting. For a certain kind of person who is interested in current and future events, I believe it is indispensable. Certain learnable mental habits are prescribed that would counter certain lazy and emotional habits certain people have. I mean, for those who are willing to be honest, and do their due diligence, etc.

http://www.economist.com/news/books-...clouded-vision
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Old 4th October 2015, 07:05 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
No worries - I'll gladly admit to being hyperbolic, and deliberately so.

The point is, 14 years - yes fourteen years - after the great US invasion, Afghanistan is still a huge, ugly mess, virtually on the brink of civil war.

So, it was better for a while.
But only the perfect is good.

Right?

Just hoping I'm following your lecture correctly.


Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'll bet that's a great comfort to the families of the dead.
That imperfect good is worthless?

Frankly, I doubt anyone would be comforted by that.
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