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Old 1st December 2018, 04:48 AM   #481
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Apparently one of the members of a panel on a recent Newsnight 'debate' on Brexit has worked as an extra on some BBC show at some time in the past.
this means that she was a 'plant' as she was pro brexit and it sghows how biassed the BBC are.

It's being touted as 'Vicargate' as the panel member was dressed in a dog collar and claiming to be a Pastor in some American church organisation.
Apparently that is part of the conspiracy by the BBC to undermine the remainers.
I happened to see this programme as it aired, hoping for a decent debate. It was complete and utter rubbish. The vicar was unbearable. Other 'members of the public' were hardly able to articulate a point. It all descended into pandemonium, with the presenter unable to keep order.

TV is becoming ever more fake. Worst of all are the 'sports editors' with their totally phony 'excitement'. There are young bimbos fresh out of Southbank uni pretending to be ecstatic about Bolton Wanderers, Wigan rugby or Formula One racing. There is one Irish bimbo who has a fixed chummy smile all the way through her manic sports presentation. Whilst I am on a rant, why do they all feel obliged to talk as rapidly as possible, presumably to emulate a fake sense of uncontrollable excitement like a tv advert telling you to get down to your nearest M&S Bank Holiday furniture warehouse sale, ends this weekend!!!
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Last edited by Vixen; 1st December 2018 at 04:50 AM.
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Old 1st December 2018, 05:51 AM   #482
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Sam Gyimah isn't a Leaver, he voted Remain at the referendum.
It was more the general idea that the EU would still let us play with all their toys after we left that I was commenting on.
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Old 1st December 2018, 07:24 AM   #483
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Soooo, he is mad that the because the UK has quit to put the 'UK first' and it turns out that that sentiment is then returned?
Why did he join a pro brexit prime Minister then?
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Old 1st December 2018, 07:33 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why did he join a pro brexit prime Minister then?
She isn't pro Brexit.

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Old 1st December 2018, 07:40 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
MNC's. Set up wherever taxes and labour costs are lowest. Yet have profits the size of the GDP of third world countries. Caters for the First World.
MNC? Multi-national Corporations? If so, why not just use the term "companies" instead of globalists?
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Old 1st December 2018, 08:20 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
She isn't pro Brexit.

Dave
She is exclusively pro-May.
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Old 1st December 2018, 09:42 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
She is exclusively pro-May.
Exclusively as in "the only one that is"?
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Old 1st December 2018, 09:49 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
MNC? Multi-national Corporations? If so, why not just use the term "companies" instead of globalists?
It doesn't sound as insidious.
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Old 1st December 2018, 10:30 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
MNC? Multi-national Corporations? If so, why not just use the term "companies" instead of globalists?
'Companies' are rarely globalist. Two-thirds of UK businesses are SME's. I have one myself.

MNC's not only control the world's predominant economies, they also influence the markets.

If you want to know how and why, read the FT. It has a very different perspective than the SUN or the DAILY MAIL.

If you want the ruling class view, that is the opinion you need to look at.
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Old 1st December 2018, 10:51 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
She isn't pro Brexit.

Dave
Brexit means brexit sounds pro brexit.
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Old 1st December 2018, 11:12 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
What the hell is a globalist?
A made-up term of abuse used by populist idiots for those not blinded by nationalist nonsense.
Useful to identify people who spout a certain type of propaganda.
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Old 1st December 2018, 12:20 PM   #492
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
A made-up term of abuse used by populist idiots for those not blinded by nationalist nonsense.
Useful to identify people who spout a certain type of propaganda.
I am a globalist.
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Old 1st December 2018, 02:46 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Brexit means brexit sounds pro brexit.
No, it sounds evasive.

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Old 2nd December 2018, 03:40 AM   #494
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Old 2nd December 2018, 06:26 AM   #495
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Labour has said it will "inevitably" call a motion of no confidence in the government if Theresa May loses a Commons vote on her Brexit deal.

Shadow Brexit secretary Sir Keir Starmer told Sky News his party would seek to force a general election.

Environment Secretary Michael Gove insisted Mrs May could still win the vote on 11 December despite dozens of her own MPs being against her EU deal.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46416591
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:00 AM   #496
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Meanwhile in news that is going to be of no surprise to anyone, Leave or Remain:

Quote:
Britain would be trapped “indefinitely” in a customs union with Brussels if MPs back Theresa May’s Brexit deal, according to leaked details of the attorney-general’s legal advice, which the government has suppressed.

Senior ministers say the prime minister is refusing to publish the advice because it contains a stark passage that makes clear the UK could end up locked in a “backstop” arrangement with the European Union.

In a letter to cabinet ministers last month, the contents of which have been disclosed to The Sunday Times, Geoffrey Cox declared: “The protocol would endure indefinitely.” The government’s top law officer ruled that the only way Britain could escape the backstop would be to sign a new trade deal, which could take years. But he warned Britain could remain trapped if those talks collapsed.

The details — confirmed by three serving cabinet ministers and the former Brexit secretary Dominic Raab — will enrage Eurosceptics and are likely to harden opposition to the deal. More than 100 Tory MPs have already signalled they will oppose their own government in the crunch vote on December 11 that has left May’s premiership hanging by a thread.

Tomorrow Cox will give a statement to parliament outlining the government’s legal position in an effort to win over MPs. No 10 is expected to publish a summary of the advice but not the letter itself — a move senior ministers believe will lead to the Speaker, John Bercow, declaring the government in contempt of parliament.


Ministers say the written legal advice is far bleaker than the account Cox will give in the Commons and the verbal assessment he gave the cabinet in October. A cabinet source said: “The legal advice is very bad, which is why they don’t want anyone to see it.”

Cox’s letter was so sensitive that numbered copies of the paper were taken from ministers after they had read it. “The letter was not allowed to leave the room,” a minister said.

Raab, who resigned as Brexit secretary last month, confirmed: “The legal position is clear. The backstop will last indefinitely, until it is superseded by the treaty setting out our future relationship, unless the EU allows us to exit.

“The EU has a clear veto, even if the future negotiations stretch on for many years, or even if they break down and there is no realistic likelihood of us reaching agreement. That’s my view as a former international lawyer, but it is consistent if not identical with all the formal advice I received.”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...3a704a5f7ba818
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:06 AM   #497
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Meanwhile in news that is going to be of no surprise to anyone, Leave or Remain:


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...3a704a5f7ba818
Why is the view so entrenched in the UK that the EU would even want this backstop to go on indefenitely? Why is there soo little trust that the EU would be a willing and cooperative partner in finding a solution that works?
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Old 2nd December 2018, 08:03 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
Why is the view so entrenched in the UK that the EU would even want this backstop to go on indefenitely? Why is there soo little trust that the EU would be a willing and cooperative partner in finding a solution that works?
For the EU, the backstop is a solution that works. They'd only give it up for one that worked better, and nobody has the faintest idea what that might be.

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Old 2nd December 2018, 08:10 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Labour has said it will "inevitably" call a motion of no confidence in the government if Theresa May loses a Commons vote on her Brexit deal.

Shadow Brexit secretary Sir Keir Starmer told Sky News his party would seek to force a general election.

Environment Secretary Michael Gove insisted Mrs May could still win the vote on 11 December despite dozens of her own MPs being against her EU deal.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46416591

Gove and Leadsom are after New Years honours.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 08:12 AM   #500
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I think at last I have had a pre-Brexit nervous breakdown. I find myself warming to Boris Johnson.

Boris for Prime Minister!


Hahahahahaha
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Old 2nd December 2018, 08:30 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'Companies' are rarely globalist. Two-thirds of UK businesses are SME's. I have one myself.

MNC's not only control the world's predominant economies, they also influence the markets.

If you want to know how and why, read the FT. It has a very different perspective than the SUN or the DAILY MAIL.

If you want the ruling class view, that is the opinion you need to look at.
I disagree, a lot of SMEs in the UK are very globalist, those that make up the hospitality industry (9% of British jobs) and farming for examples.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 08:39 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I disagree, a lot of SMEs in the UK are very globalist, those that make up the hospitality industry (9% of British jobs) and farming for examples.
How is farming globalist? As for hospitality, hotel chains, restaurants, fast food chains are more usually MNCs rahter than local businesses.

Many a time I have frequented a charming looking local eatery establishment, only to be told later that actually, 'it's part of a chain'.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 08:51 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
Why is the view so entrenched in the UK that the EU would even want this backstop to go on indefenitely? Why is there soo little trust that the EU would be a willing and cooperative partner in finding a solution that works?
40 years of the EU being a scapegoat for anything the media or government or any other political group had a bee in their bonnet about.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 09:36 AM   #504
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How is farming globalist? As for hospitality, hotel chains, restaurants, fast food chains are more usually MNCs rahter than local businesses.

Many a time I have frequented a charming looking local eatery establishment, only to be told later that actually, 'it's part of a chain'.
Farming is globalist because it relies in a large part on seasonal labour, much of which comes from abroad, 40% of British food is imported, the farmers producing food abroad to sell here are also globalist.

The hospitality industry is made up of companies of all different sizes, plenty of them aren't part of chains (I spend half the year travelling for work and about three quarters of the places we stay aren't) and anyway many of the chain pubs and pub/restaurants are tied to a brewery or chain but run by leaseholders who operate as self employed small business owners.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 10:11 AM   #505
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Farming is globalist because it relies in a large part on seasonal labour, much of which comes from abroad, 40% of British food is imported, the farmers producing food abroad to sell here are also globalist.

The hospitality industry is made up of companies of all different sizes, plenty of them aren't part of chains (I spend half the year travelling for work and about three quarters of the places we stay aren't) and anyway many of the chain pubs and pub/restaurants are tied to a brewery or chain but run by leaseholders who operate as self employed small business owners.
Supplying goods or service abroad (or importing and exporting) doesn't make a firm 'globalist'. A farmer would only be globalist if it established farms in more than two countries and owns them.

What happens with companies like Amazon, Ebay or Google is that whilst you might imagine the UK version is UK-based, you'll find actually they prefer to charge you from Ireland or somewhere on the continent. They use transfer pricing to ensure they (a) earn maximum tax-free profit and (b) they get away with avoiding Corporation Tax in the UK by showing their chosen 'head office' is elsewhere and has come under the radar of a large portion of tax by using artificially low transfer pricing.

The awfully nice farmer in Sussex is not doing that.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 12:53 PM   #506
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Supplying goods or service abroad (or importing and exporting) doesn't make a firm 'globalist'. A farmer would only be globalist if it established farms in more than two countries and owns them.

What happens with companies like Amazon, Ebay or Google is that whilst you might imagine the UK version is UK-based, you'll find actually they prefer to charge you from Ireland or somewhere on the continent. They use transfer pricing to ensure they (a) earn maximum tax-free profit and (b) they get away with avoiding Corporation Tax in the UK by showing their chosen 'head office' is elsewhere and has come under the radar of a large portion of tax by using artificially low transfer pricing.

The awfully nice farmer in Sussex is not doing that.
Nope, the free movement of goods, services and labour is a key element of globalism, it's not just multinationals.

Eta:and yes, I know how Amazon works.

Eta2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization

Quote:
In 2000, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) identified four basic aspects of globalization: trade and transactions, capital and investment movements, migration and movement of people, and the dissemination of knowledge.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 03:24 PM   #507
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Supplying goods or service abroad (or importing and exporting) doesn't make a firm 'globalist'. A farmer would only be globalist if it established farms in more than two countries and owns them.

What happens with companies like Amazon, Ebay or Google is that whilst you might imagine the UK version is UK-based, you'll find actually they prefer to charge you from Ireland or somewhere on the continent. They use transfer pricing to ensure they (a) earn maximum tax-free profit and (b) they get away with avoiding Corporation Tax in the UK by showing their chosen 'head office' is elsewhere and has come under the radar of a large portion of tax by using artificially low transfer pricing.

The awfully nice farmer in Sussex is not doing that.
Most people in this thread are less ignorant than you assume.

Obviously importing and exporting of goods might not be "globalist" (Renaissance Venetian traders weren't by any reasonable definition) but if you treat the rest of Europe as indistinguishable as far as supply chain, labour supply and market, then that reflects the reality of modern British agriculture.

Now, maybe that's not "globalist" as opposed to "regionalist" but when you are relying on seasonal workers coming from the EU or even New Zealand/Australia for sheep-shearing, then it's pretty globalist by most
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Old 2nd December 2018, 03:39 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Most people in this thread are less ignorant than you assume.

Obviously importing and exporting of goods might not be "globalist" (Renaissance Venetian traders weren't by any reasonable definition) but if you treat the rest of Europe as indistinguishable as far as supply chain, labour supply and market, then that reflects the reality of modern British agriculture.

Now, maybe that's not "globalist" as opposed to "regionalist" but when you are relying on seasonal workers coming from the EU or even New Zealand/Australia for sheep-shearing, then it's pretty globalist by most

Exactly, but also the (for example) New Zealand farmer exporting his lamb to the UK will be against import tariffs that protect UK farmers and disadvantage him which is a globalist opinion to hold.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:17 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm still not convinced the leavers wanted to win.

Boris did not seem like a happy man when he received the news.
They didn't expect to win. During the campaign, Gove and Johnson would meet in the restaurant of a London hotel and talk loudly about what they expected to gain from their narrow defeat. The waitstaff would overhear them.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 02:45 AM   #510
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Originally Posted by BillC View Post
They didn't expect to win. During the campaign, Gove and Johnson would meet in the restaurant of a London hotel and talk loudly about what they expected to gain from their narrow defeat. The waitstaff would overhear them.
Not to mention the look of dumbstruck horror on Johnson's face after the result. They gambled the economy and future of everyone in the country for personal gain, and when that didn't work they doubled down.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 04:15 AM   #511
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
Parliament gets a vote on the final deal and it won't allow a no deal to happen.
But they have to actually pass something to prevent it, as it is automatic after article 50. That is why I think no deal is the most likely outcome. What would the pass to prevent it?
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Old 3rd December 2018, 04:20 AM   #512
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I happened to see this programme as it aired, hoping for a decent debate. It was complete and utter rubbish. The vicar was unbearable. Other 'members of the public' were hardly able to articulate a point. It all descended into pandemonium, with the presenter unable to keep order.

TV is becoming ever more fake. Worst of all are the 'sports editors' with their totally phony 'excitement'. There are young bimbos fresh out of Southbank uni pretending to be ecstatic about Bolton Wanderers, Wigan rugby or Formula One racing. There is one Irish bimbo who has a fixed chummy smile all the way through her manic sports presentation. Whilst I am on a rant, why do they all feel obliged to talk as rapidly as possible, presumably to emulate a fake sense of uncontrollable excitement like a tv advert telling you to get down to your nearest M&S Bank Holiday furniture warehouse sale, ends this weekend!!!
I agree about all these talking heads on TV and their endless frenetic Brexit empty waffle. It's either that or ten minute weather forecasts and adverts. Is there nothing else going on in the world? Where are the funny comedians now? The thick-headed sports journalists on TV then do a "they fought for ninety minutes and no one fought harder than".... rant to wake you up followed by an interview with an ashen faced foreign football manager, and then on to a few boring rugby clips.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 04:45 AM   #513
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But they have to actually pass something to prevent it, as it is automatic after article 50. That is why I think no deal is the most likely outcome. What would the pass to prevent it?
Surely Parliament could vote down the deal, and then as some point vote to either cancel Article 50 (so remain), or to continue to no deal.

Obviously there is no guarantee the sane minds would win out in the end.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 06:10 AM   #514
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
...
Obviously there is no guarantee the sane minds would win out in the end.
Have they won out at any point so far?
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Old 3rd December 2018, 07:58 AM   #515
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Most people in this thread are less ignorant than you assume.

Obviously importing and exporting of goods might not be "globalist" (Renaissance Venetian traders weren't by any reasonable definition) but if you treat the rest of Europe as indistinguishable as far as supply chain, labour supply and market, then that reflects the reality of modern British agriculture.

Now, maybe that's not "globalist" as opposed to "regionalist" but when you are relying on seasonal workers coming from the EU or even New Zealand/Australia for sheep-shearing, then it's pretty globalist by most
I don't think hiring a few migrants makes a company 'globalist'.

The key thing is capital. Having the means to generate vast sums by - for example - taking advantage of low cost labour, call centres and manufacturing in other countries, selling the goods/services in affluent western economies and avoiding company tax by means of transfer pricing. That is, sell something in England for 100 ceteris paribus invoiced from your firm in Ireland, charged to your firm in England at 20 to comply with Company Law, who then pays Corporation tax of 4 at the year end instead of 20 that a genuinely UK-based company would have to pay (assuming no expenses deducted). Exporting lamb from NZ to the UK is not globalism, unless it is an MNC financing it, say via a venture capitalist.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 08:10 AM   #516
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Exactly, but also the (for example) New Zealand farmer exporting his lamb to the UK will be against import tariffs that protect UK farmers and disadvantage him which is a globalist opinion to hold.
Ah, but if you can work it by having the lamb arrive via a non-tariff country - which you could only do if you had a registered company based there - then you can get around the tariff: this is how the globalists operate, outside any of the rules a locally based company has to operate from.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 08:28 AM   #517
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Old 3rd December 2018, 08:30 AM   #518
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But they have to actually pass something to prevent it, as it is automatic after article 50. That is why I think no deal is the most likely outcome. What would the pass to prevent it?
Someone has put in a Supreme Court action to make Article 50 potentially reversible.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 10:18 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Not to mention the look of dumbstruck horror on Johnson's face after the result. They gambled the economy and future of everyone in the country for personal gain, and when that didn't work they doubled down.
In the case of Johnson I think it might be because he had to. He basically created a power base by pushing the leave narrative. By suddenly going "oh I didn't mean it" would basically destroy the support he has.

Since the referendum I'd say that every move he's made is still motivated by personal gain. The clearest is dropping out of the vote for PM. Even he knew that this was a career ending position to be in which is why he didn't take it.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 11:01 AM   #520
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Loathe to post from such a website, but this MP lays out why he thinks a border between NI and the UK can be avoided. Are his arguments unsound?

https://brexitcentral.com/avoid-hard...single-market/
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