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Old 19th December 2018, 02:13 AM   #1
caveman1917
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Belgian government falls

It took us 4 years and its term was going to be up in just a couple of months anyway, but still...mission accomplished, down with the government!
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Old 19th December 2018, 06:38 AM   #2
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The government has resigned (assuming that the King accepts the resignation).

For all practical purposes, that means that we are stuck with a caretaker government until after the 26/may/19 parliamentary elections.
Given the time that may be needed after the elections to form a new federal government, this Michel caretaker government may well be in power for a year or so.
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Old 19th December 2018, 06:44 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
It took us 4 years and its term was going to be up in just a couple of months anyway, but still...mission accomplished, down with the government!
An anarchist cares why?
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Old 19th December 2018, 06:58 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Firestone View Post
The government has resigned (assuming that the King accepts the resignation).

For all practical purposes, that means that we are stuck with a caretaker government until after the 26/may/19 parliamentary elections.
Given the time that may be needed after the elections to form a new federal government, this Michel caretaker government may well be in power for a year or so.
It means the planned austerity reforms can not be implemented because a caretaker government does not have those powers. Bring out the champagne!
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Old 19th December 2018, 07:01 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
An anarchist cares why?
Are you being serious? Anarchists have opposed the austerity reform programs in the EU since, like, always. For example the planned pension reforms can now not be implemented until at least since the next election, as well as a bunch of other planned reforms which have been stopped.
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Old 19th December 2018, 07:13 AM   #6
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The main reform that was supposed to be voted on this week in parliament is the reform of unemployment benefits.

One of the conditions of the N-VA (Flemish nationalist party) for supporting the government was that this reform would be implemented.
But this was not the sticking point, as all parties in the coalition had already agreed to the reform.

It may well be, given the budgetary situation and the pressure by employers, that parliament will approve this reform. Not this week, but at the beginning of next year, after some more backroom wheeling and dealing.
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Old 19th December 2018, 08:04 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Firestone View Post
The main reform that was supposed to be voted on this week in parliament is the reform of unemployment benefits.

One of the conditions of the N-VA (Flemish nationalist party) for supporting the government was that this reform would be implemented.
But this was not the sticking point, as all parties in the coalition had already agreed to the reform.
Well not anymore apparently.

Quote:
It may well be, given the budgetary situation and the pressure by employers, that parliament will approve this reform. Not this week, but at the beginning of next year, after some more backroom wheeling and dealing.
It's unlikely though, a government of running affairs can not introduce new legislation.
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Old 19th December 2018, 09:06 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Well not anymore apparently.



It's unlikely though, a government of running affairs can not introduce new legislation.
Parliament is still there, the government can (try to) get agreements on specific measures.
This happened during the 500 (or so) days of the Leterme running affairs government.

To be clear, I'm not saying it will happen, but it is possible.
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Old 19th December 2018, 10:35 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
It took us 4 years and its term was going to be up in just a couple of months anyway, but still...mission accomplished, down with the government!
You don't seem to be a NV-A voter, caveman... The NV-A (who had lost ground to Vlaams Belang in recent elections) asked Michel to not sign the Marrakesh UN migration deal. He refused, and now he is likely to lose his job as head of a full powers government. I think there is often great contempt for "extreme-right" ideas in Belgium, especially among French-speaking politicians, which is probably related to Nazi crimes, and is perhaps not fully justified.
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Old 20th December 2018, 12:12 AM   #10
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N-VA plans to introduce in Parliament a number of the measures that were agreed by the coalition before the crisis.

Logically, there should be a majority in Parliament for these measures.
But logic and politics ...

Link in Dutch: https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2018/12...arlement-indi/
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Old 20th December 2018, 02:41 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
You don't seem to be a NV-A voter, caveman...
Obviously. I generally don't vote, but this time I might vote for these people (they're even looking for candidates, only 10 simple conditions you must fulfill).

Quote:
The NV-A (who had lost ground to Vlaams Belang in recent elections) asked Michel to not sign the Marrakesh UN migration deal. He refused, and now he is likely to lose his job as head of a full powers government.
Not quite, the NV-A had agreed to sign the UN pact but at the last moment changed their mind and started opposing it because they were afraid of losing more of their extreme-right base to VB. So it's not that they were opposed to the pact, they were in favour and only made a U-turn at the last moment.

Quote:
I think there is often great contempt for "extreme-right" ideas in Belgium, especially among French-speaking politicians, which is probably related to Nazi crimes, and is perhaps not fully justified.
There is by far not enough contempt for it in Flanders, but Flanders is a notoriously right-wing and xenophobic region.
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Old 20th December 2018, 12:34 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Are you being serious? Anarchists have opposed the austerity reform programs in the EU since, like, always. For example the planned pension reforms can now not be implemented until at least since the next election, as well as a bunch of other planned reforms which have been stopped.
I though anarchism was anti-government, but in this case they're for larger government? I.E. increased government spending?
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Old 22nd December 2018, 05:10 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I though anarchism was anti-government, but in this case they're for larger government? I.E. increased government spending?
That question is so misguided I don't even know where to start. Anarchists have always opposed wealth transfers from the working class to the bourgeoisie.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 10:55 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
That question is so misguided I don't even know where to start. Anarchists have always opposed wealth transfers from the working class to the bourgeoisie.
It would help if you defined your terms better, and also recognize that very often your use of terms doesn't correspond with common useage.

I'm assuming from context that you see the austerity policy as the "transfer from the working class to the bourgeoisie" anarchists would be against, but what I'm asking is if anarchism is anti-government then it would follow that it should oppose the very idea of government pensions.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 04:29 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
It would help if you defined your terms better, and also recognize that very often your use of terms doesn't correspond with common useage.

I'm assuming from context that you see the austerity policy as the "transfer from the working class to the bourgeoisie" anarchists would be against
Well of course it's a wealth transfer from the working class to the bourgeoisie, the entire goal of the austerity reforms is to finance subsidies and tax breaks for the rich by cutting social services. It's a literal description of the policy, taking wealth from the working class and transferring it to the bourgeoisie.

Quote:
but what I'm asking is if anarchism is anti-government then it would follow that it should oppose the very idea of government pensions.
By your logic they should also oppose the very idea of labour regulation, such as the 8-hour work day, yet it was mostly the anarchists who led the movement for it. Have you considered that anarchists might just not be stupid enough to fall for that "let's cut your pensions and give it all to the bourgeoisie because pensions are gubmint stuff and you're opposed to the gubmint"?
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Old 23rd December 2018, 06:40 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
It would help if you defined your terms better, and also recognize that very often your use of terms doesn't correspond with common useage.

I'm assuming from context that you see the austerity policy as the "transfer from the working class to the bourgeoisie" anarchists would be against, but what I'm asking is if anarchism is anti-government then it would follow that it should oppose the very idea of government pensions.
That presupposes that Anarchists have thought anything through and have a rational plan for society.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 08:31 AM   #17
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Maybe they will go and beat their record - "Belgium matched the record for time taken to form a new democratic government after an election, at 353 days"

Anarchy indeed - plus the fact that the economy experienced good economic growth in that record breaking time.

Early Christmas present perhaps
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Old 24th January 2019, 05:17 AM   #18
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Government: down. Next up: bourgeoisie. Grève générale!
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:50 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
That presupposes that Anarchists have thought anything through and have a rational plan for society.
Yeah, I try to give them every benefit of the doubt, but they still refuse to make any sense.
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Old 25th January 2019, 03:33 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
That presupposes that Anarchists have thought anything through and have a rational plan for society.
Uh, because they don't?
There is a reason why Anarchy is generally made up of small groups of students and academic intelletuals.
They can preach total nonsense without the worry that their theories will actually be put to the acid test of reality.
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Old 29th January 2019, 10:59 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
That presupposes that Anarchists have thought anything through and have a rational plan for society.
They have thought it through, and their plan is to have no plan!
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Old 30th January 2019, 10:31 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Uh, because they don't?
There is a reason why Anarchy is generally made up of small groups of students and academic intelletuals.
They can preach total nonsense without the worry that their theories will actually be put to the acid test of reality.
That was Boris' plan!
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Old 30th January 2019, 12:09 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
That was Boris' plan!
"Be Careful What You Wish For..You Might Actually Get It".
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Old 3rd February 2019, 11:45 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Well of course it's a wealth transfer from the working class to the bourgeoisie, the entire goal of the austerity reforms is to finance subsidies and tax breaks for the rich by cutting social services. It's a literal description of the policy, taking wealth from the working class and transferring it to the bourgeoisie.
In common useage, "bourgeoisie" is middle class. It's only used to represent the class that owns the means of production among marxists.



Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
By your logic they should also oppose the very idea of labour regulation, such as the 8-hour work day, yet it was mostly the anarchists who led the movement for it. Have you considered that anarchists might just not be stupid enough to fall for that "let's cut your pensions and give it all to the bourgeoisie because pensions are gubmint stuff and you're opposed to the gubmint"?
It's not my logic, it's a reasonable extrapolation of opposing the existence of government. That Anarchists support this one aspect of government while claiming to oppose government as a whole is evidence of irrationality in anarchist docterine.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 11:57 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
In common useage, "bourgeoisie" is middle class. It's only used to represent the class that owns the means of production among marxists.











It's not my logic, it's a reasonable extrapolation of opposing the existence of government. That Anarchists support this one aspect of government while claiming to oppose government as a whole is evidence of irrationality in anarchist docterine.
Any sufficiently well organized society is indistinguishable from government. Anarchism doesn't seem to understand this.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 02:13 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
It's not my logic, it's a reasonable extrapolation of opposing the existence of government. That Anarchists support this one aspect of government while claiming to oppose government as a whole is evidence of irrationality in anarchist docterine.
Of course not, as you say anarchists oppose government as a whole (such as the boss at work etc) but they don't tend to oppose working class mutualities (such as social security including pensions) - indeed, there's an entire strand of anarchism called mutualism in which social security mutualities find their origin. That some of those mutualities are administrated by government employees changes nothing.

There's nothing irrational about it, just your own ignorance of basic marxist and anarchist philosophy.
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