Aviation history - Page 4

Captain_Swoop · 11th March 2021, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

I suspect an Ar-196 could have given the Fleet Shadower quite a hard time. But then again, the Germans barely had a fleet to shadow. The Japanese, on the other hand, did, and it had plenty of carrier based aircraft. And, of course, France had a fleet and a carrier, and I think even a D376 could have caught it. So who was the envisaged enemy for the Fleet Shadower; Germany, for whom it wasn't really needed, or France or Japan, for whom it was never going to be suitable?

I suspect the absence of a clear answer to that question may have been a factor in its never progressing beyond the prototype stage.

How would the Fleet Shadower find the ship it was supposed to be shadowing at night, and how long before dawn would it have to leave it unobserved?

Dave

Remember the concept predated radar. Everything relied on visual observation.
One of the reasons Jutland was inconclusive is that the Germans cleared off when it got dark, neither fleet had any real night fighting capability although the RN had some techniques and training for it a fleet action wasn't a practical proposition at night.
Even in to WW2 ships relied on lookouts rather than radar. At the River Plate Graf Spee was spotted by a lookout spotting her funnel smoke on the horizon and ships of cruiser size and above carried spotter planes.

Airfix · 15th March 2021, 03:44 AM

Before radar there were attempts using sound mirrors.

This technology could one day return, as a sort of early warning against stealth aircraft.

Captain_Swoop · 15th March 2021, 04:23 AM

We have one in Redcar, it's in a housing estate now and there is one over on the cliffsat Boulby by Staithes.

They didn't work to any great degree in the 1930s, why would they work now?

Pope130 · 15th March 2021, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

We have one in Redcar, it's in a housing estate now and there is one over on the cliffsat Boulby by Staithes.

They didn't work to any great degree in the 1930s, why would they work now?

The technology backing this sort of thing has improved tremendously. Sensitivity, frequency range and selectivity of the microphones have all had great improvements.
Filtering and signal processing by computer would replace the guy standing there with headphones on. I'd expect that to work much better.

Airfix · 15th March 2021, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

We have one in Redcar, it's in a housing estate now and there is one over on the cliffsat Boulby by Staithes.

They didn't work to any great degree in the 1930s, why would they work now?

Radar was and is better, but they do actually work.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Where a system like this could still be relevant, would be the case of a tinpot dictator who faced potentially being attacked by stealth aircraft.

Ok, it doesn't prevent attack, it doesn't provide a means to fight back, but something like this would provide an early warning, time to get to shelters and the possibility of survival.

Captain_Swoop · 15th March 2021, 10:08 AM

How much warning would it give of high speed jets though?
When they were built bombers were barely making 200 mph.

3point14 · 15th March 2021, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

How much warning would it give of high speed jets though?
When they were built bombers were barely making 200 mph.

If something's supersonic surely you can't hear it coming by definition?

Airfix · 16th March 2021, 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

How much warning would it give of high speed jets though?
When they were built bombers were barely making 200 mph.

I don't know, but I do know that without any warning system, there is no time left to get to a shelter if stealth bombers attack.

Even if they only provide a 5 minute warning, that's 5 minutes that a tin pot dictator has to get to a shelter and stay alive.

Dr. Keith · 16th March 2021, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

I don't know, but I do know that without any warning system, there is no time left to get to a shelter if stealth bombers attack.

Even if they only provide a 5 minute warning, that's 5 minutes that a tin pot dictator has to get to a shelter and stay alive.

I think the point being made was that with modern aircraft such a warning system would give zero usable warning. By the time you hear them they are on their way home. Even with really big ears.

Airfix · 17th March 2021, 03:31 AM

Oh I get the point, but my point is that some tin pot dictators are very paranoid very desperate and willing to give anything a try just to stay in power.

Anyway, speaking of fast bombers, North American XB70 one of the biggest and fastest bomber designs ever:

Captain_Swoop · 17th March 2021, 04:10 AM

Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden flying a Fokker DR1 replica with the Great War Display Team in a dogfight in the skies over Knebworth Festival in 2014.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Captain_Swoop · 17th March 2021, 04:20 AM

I was there for that, and the year before when a Spitfire flew over as they opened their set.
They didn't start with 'Aces High' though which would have been fitting.

Airfix · 17th March 2021, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

I suspect it would have ridden out the war like the rest of the Kriegsmarine's big capitol ships post Bismarck - hiding out in a port until sunk by one of Barnes Wallis's gadgets.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

It's all very well getting one to land on a carrier, the problem comes when you have to keep landing it on a carrier.
Me109 like the Spitfire wasn't designed to take hard arrestor landings on a carrier.
There were several marks of Seafire each one with added strengthening to the fuselage and gear and they still kept breaking.

If it had become operational what would they have done with one carrier?

Would it have ever even left port?

Good posts both of you, I agree.

It would have been targeted, efforts would have been made to sink it or cause enough damage to put it out of action.

And whilst it might have been able to launch fighters the proposed compliment of 10 BF109's would not have been anywhere enough to protect it from the kind of raids the allies were able to launch.

Airfix · 17th March 2021, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden flying a Fokker DR1 replica with the Great War Display Team in a dogfight in the skies over Knebworth Festival in 2014.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Awesome!

I saw this display in 1992.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

I had a postcard of XH558 on my wall and never thought I'd see it fly again.
And then, 10 years ago as a learner pilot on a winch course, got a flypast as it headed by our airfield.
It happened on a rather overcast day in which I hadn't bothered to take my camera.

I've been kicking myself ever since.

I saw this display in '15 as well:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Captain_Swoop · 17th March 2021, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

Good posts both of you, I agree.

It would have been targeted, efforts would have been made to sink it or cause enough damage to put it out of action.

And whilst it might have been able to launch fighters the proposed compliment of 10 BF109's would not have been anywhere enough to protect it from the kind of raids the allies were able to launch.

By the time the GZ was in service it would have been up against the Illustrious Class they were flying Seafires and Martlets with the Corsair joining in 1943

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illust...rcraft_carrier

10 Me109s wouldn't have lasted long.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Formidable_(67)

Airfix · 17th March 2021, 08:39 AM

No, they wouldn't have lasted long at all.

They had an initially effective strategy with U boats and surface commerce raiders, but later in the war, the hunters had become the hunted.
The lack of a carrier fleet by then was too little too late and any attempt to reverse that trend by activating Graf Zeppelin would only have cost lives.

Airfix · 18th March 2021, 03:02 AM

Ok, this is a very significant aircraft and hardly anyone will have heard of it, this is the Handley Page Gugnunc, designed for the Guggenheim safe aircraft competition, it used leading edge slots designed by Gustav Lachmann and flaps to achieve a stall speed of just 29 knots.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handley_Page_Gugnunc

https://www.a-e-g.org.uk/the-gugnunc.html
The leading edge slot technology developed by Gustav Lachmann and Frederick Handley Page is used in the wings of modern airliners.

Foster Zygote · 18th March 2021, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

Good posts both of you, I agree.

Are you kidding? I let autocorrect choose 'capitol' over 'capital' to replace whatever my fingers mangled with this tiny little touch screen. I'm filled with shame.

Shrike · 18th March 2021, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden flying a Fokker DR1 replica with the Great War Display Team in a dogfight in the skies over Knebworth Festival in 2014.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

I appreciate this post!

Foster Zygote · 18th March 2021, 06:28 AM

There are some great videos to be found on YouTube showing actual LeRhone rotary engines being run. The first time I saw one I was floored by how violent those little engines were. If Satan had a chainsaw fueled with the tears of children, it would sound like that.

Captain_Swoop · 18th March 2021, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Shrike

I appreciate this post!

Bruce also flew 'Ed Force One' their 747 for the 2016 world tour.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Airfix · 19th March 2021, 02:52 AM

Bruce also made a rather excellent series called "flying heavy metal".

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

dudalb · 22nd March 2021, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

My favourite...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u7e683xf5y...1987.jpg?raw=1

The "DC-3" of my generation (literally, the first C-130 entered service a year before I was born).

I have done dozens of flights as Supercrew on C-130s, some of them on the actual aircraft in that photo. Everything from ordinary shuttle flights, equipment test flights, disaster relief in the Pacific Islands, trips to Antarctica on "Operation Icecube" (and one flight on a US Navy VXE-6 Ski Hercules), to LAPES tactical cargo dropping, the most exciting thing I have ever taken part in on a C-130 flight.

The Herky Bird is an aircraft I will always have a soft spot for.

Herky Bird is still going strong in it's most recent version.
Turned out the only thing that could replace the C 130 was a improved modernized version of the C-130 it's the DC-3 main competition for the most versatile and long lived active service life plane in aviation history.

Craig4 · 22nd March 2021, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

My favourite...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u7e683xf5y...1987.jpg?raw=1

The "DC-3" of my generation (literally, the first C-130 entered service a year before I was born).

I have done dozens of flights as Supercrew on C-130s, some of them on the actual aircraft in that photo. Everything from ordinary shuttle flights, equipment test flights, disaster relief in the Pacific Islands, trips to Antarctica on "Operation Icecube" (and one flight on a US Navy VXE-6 Ski Hercules), to LAPES tactical cargo dropping, the most exciting thing I have ever taken part in on a C-130 flight.

The Herky Bird is an aircraft I will always have a soft spot for.

I have mixed feelings. I was in the ops support flight of the wing that King 56 was in. That was the HC-130P that had the four engine roll back off the California coast. It was a STANEVAL flight and had a double crew. All but the radio operator died when the plane broke apart when the crew attempted a water landing. The STANEVAL navigator was supposed to be in our wedding that took place the following spring.

15th March 2021, 03:44 AM	#122
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030	Before radar there were attempts using sound mirrors. This technology could one day return, as a sort of early warning against stealth aircraft.
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030

15th March 2021, 10:43 AM	#127
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,659	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop How much warning would it give of high speed jets though? When they were built bombers were barely making 200 mph. If something's supersonic surely you can't hear it coming by definition?
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,659	__________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

16th March 2021, 04:07 AM	#128
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop How much warning would it give of high speed jets though? When they were built bombers were barely making 200 mph. I don't know, but I do know that without any warning system, there is no time left to get to a shelter if stealth bombers attack. Even if they only provide a 5 minute warning, that's 5 minutes that a tin pot dictator has to get to a shelter and stay alive.
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030

16th March 2021, 09:13 AM	#129
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 22,884	Originally Posted by Airfix I don't know, but I do know that without any warning system, there is no time left to get to a shelter if stealth bombers attack. Even if they only provide a 5 minute warning, that's 5 minutes that a tin pot dictator has to get to a shelter and stay alive. I think the point being made was that with modern aircraft such a warning system would give zero usable warning. By the time you hear them they are on their way home. Even with really big ears.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

17th March 2021, 03:31 AM	#130
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030	Oh I get the point, but my point is that some tin pot dictators are very paranoid very desperate and willing to give anything a try just to stay in power. Anyway, speaking of fast bombers, North American XB70 one of the biggest and fastest bomber designs ever:
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030

11th March 2021, 08:46 AM	#121
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 32,616	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers I suspect an Ar-196 could have given the Fleet Shadower quite a hard time. But then again, the Germans barely had a fleet to shadow. The Japanese, on the other hand, did, and it had plenty of carrier based aircraft. And, of course, France had a fleet and a carrier, and I think even a D376 could have caught it. So who was the envisaged enemy for the Fleet Shadower; Germany, for whom it wasn't really needed, or France or Japan, for whom it was never going to be suitable? I suspect the absence of a clear answer to that question may have been a factor in its never progressing beyond the prototype stage. How would the Fleet Shadower find the ship it was supposed to be shadowing at night, and how long before dawn would it have to leave it unobserved? Dave Remember the concept predated radar. Everything relied on visual observation. One of the reasons Jutland was inconclusive is that the Germans cleared off when it got dark, neither fleet had any real night fighting capability although the RN had some techniques and training for it a fleet action wasn't a practical proposition at night. Even in to WW2 ships relied on lookouts rather than radar. At the River Plate Graf Spee was spotted by a lookout spotting her funnel smoke on the horizon and ships of cruiser size and above carried spotter planes.

15th March 2021, 04:23 AM	#123
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 32,616	We have one in Redcar, it's in a housing estate now and there is one over on the cliffsat Boulby by Staithes. They didn't work to any great degree in the 1930s, why would they work now?

15th March 2021, 08:17 AM	#124
Pope130 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 3,506	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop We have one in Redcar, it's in a housing estate now and there is one over on the cliffsat Boulby by Staithes. They didn't work to any great degree in the 1930s, why would they work now? The technology backing this sort of thing has improved tremendously. Sensitivity, frequency range and selectivity of the microphones have all had great improvements. Filtering and signal processing by computer would replace the guy standing there with headphones on. I'd expect that to work much better.

15th March 2021, 10:08 AM	#126
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 32,616	How much warning would it give of high speed jets though? When they were built bombers were barely making 200 mph.

17th March 2021, 04:20 AM	#132
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 32,616	I was there for that, and the year before when a Spitfire flew over as they opened their set. They didn't start with 'Aces High' though which would have been fitting.

17th March 2021, 05:59 AM	#133
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote I suspect it would have ridden out the war like the rest of the Kriegsmarine's big capitol ships post Bismarck - hiding out in a port until sunk by one of Barnes Wallis's gadgets. Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop It's all very well getting one to land on a carrier, the problem comes when you have to keep landing it on a carrier. Me109 like the Spitfire wasn't designed to take hard arrestor landings on a carrier. There were several marks of Seafire each one with added strengthening to the fuselage and gear and they still kept breaking. If it had become operational what would they have done with one carrier? Would it have ever even left port? Good posts both of you, I agree. It would have been targeted, efforts would have been made to sink it or cause enough damage to put it out of action. And whilst it might have been able to launch fighters the proposed compliment of 10 BF109's would not have been anywhere enough to protect it from the kind of raids the allies were able to launch.
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030

17th March 2021, 06:48 AM	#135
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 32,616	Originally Posted by Airfix Good posts both of you, I agree. It would have been targeted, efforts would have been made to sink it or cause enough damage to put it out of action. And whilst it might have been able to launch fighters the proposed compliment of 10 BF109's would not have been anywhere enough to protect it from the kind of raids the allies were able to launch. By the time the GZ was in service it would have been up against the Illustrious Class they were flying Seafires and Martlets with the Corsair joining in 1943 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illust...rcraft_carrier 10 Me109s wouldn't have lasted long. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Formidable_(67)

17th March 2021, 08:39 AM	#136
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030	No, they wouldn't have lasted long at all. They had an initially effective strategy with U boats and surface commerce raiders, but later in the war, the hunters had become the hunted. The lack of a carrier fleet by then was too little too late and any attempt to reverse that trend by activating Graf Zeppelin would only have cost lives.
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030

18th March 2021, 03:02 AM	#137
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030	Ok, this is a very significant aircraft and hardly anyone will have heard of it, this is the Handley Page Gugnunc, designed for the Guggenheim safe aircraft competition, it used leading edge slots designed by Gustav Lachmann and flaps to achieve a stall speed of just 29 knots. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handley_Page_Gugnunc https://www.a-e-g.org.uk/the-gugnunc.html The leading edge slot technology developed by Gustav Lachmann and Frederick Handley Page is used in the wings of modern airliners.
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030

18th March 2021, 04:42 AM	#138
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 17,956	Originally Posted by Airfix Good posts both of you, I agree. Are you kidding? I let autocorrect choose 'capitol' over 'capital' to replace whatever my fingers mangled with this tiny little touch screen. I'm filled with shame.
	__________________ Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

18th March 2021, 06:28 AM	#140
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 17,956	There are some great videos to be found on YouTube showing actual LeRhone rotary engines being run. The first time I saw one I was floored by how violent those little engines were. If Satan had a chainsaw fueled with the tears of children, it would sound like that.
	__________________ Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

22nd March 2021, 01:42 PM	#143
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,447	Originally Posted by smartcooky My favourite... https://www.dropbox.com/s/u7e683xf5y...1987.jpg?raw=1 The "DC-3" of my generation (literally, the first C-130 entered service a year before I was born). I have done dozens of flights as Supercrew on C-130s, some of them on the actual aircraft in that photo. Everything from ordinary shuttle flights, equipment test flights, disaster relief in the Pacific Islands, trips to Antarctica on "Operation Icecube" (and one flight on a US Navy VXE-6 Ski Hercules), to LAPES tactical cargo dropping, the most exciting thing I have ever taken part in on a C-130 flight. The Herky Bird is an aircraft I will always have a soft spot for. Herky Bird is still going strong in it's most recent version. Turned out the only thing that could replace the C 130 was a improved modernized version of the C-130 it's the DC-3 main competition for the most versatile and long lived active service life plane in aviation history.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

22nd March 2021, 11:28 PM	#144
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 22,815	Originally Posted by smartcooky My favourite... https://www.dropbox.com/s/u7e683xf5y...1987.jpg?raw=1 The "DC-3" of my generation (literally, the first C-130 entered service a year before I was born). I have done dozens of flights as Supercrew on C-130s, some of them on the actual aircraft in that photo. Everything from ordinary shuttle flights, equipment test flights, disaster relief in the Pacific Islands, trips to Antarctica on "Operation Icecube" (and one flight on a US Navy VXE-6 Ski Hercules), to LAPES tactical cargo dropping, the most exciting thing I have ever taken part in on a C-130 flight. The Herky Bird is an aircraft I will always have a soft spot for. I have mixed feelings. I was in the ops support flight of the wing that King 56 was in. That was the HC-130P that had the four engine roll back off the California coast. It was a STANEVAL flight and had a double crew. All but the radio operator died when the plane broke apart when the crew attempted a water landing. The STANEVAL navigator was supposed to be in our wedding that took place the following spring.