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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

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Old 9th March 2019, 02:35 PM   #1281
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
You presume that mere facts and evidence will change the minds of the apologists for the rapist Pell.

I guess that is too much to ask.
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Old 9th March 2019, 03:16 PM   #1282
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And the inaction of the others, laity, church hierarchy and secular authorities......
Yup. And having been that soldier, I know what went on. To my shame, at the time "I went rather him than me". I was left mostly alone because they quickly identified that I was likely to raise a ruckus. Others? Not so much.

It is something of which I am not proud. Devil take the hindmost was a de riguer position and what is one to do when one is a kid? Self preservation was the order of the day.

A couple of my former classmates suicided over it. Decades later I still think I should have stepped up. But I had not, in those days, any means to do so.

Mé féin agus tada eile.

That's just how it was. Those were the facts on the ground at the time.
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Old 9th March 2019, 03:54 PM   #1283
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Yup. And having been that soldier, I know what went on. To my shame, at the time "I went rather him than me". I was left mostly alone because they quickly identified that I was likely to raise a ruckus. Others? Not so much.

It is something of which I am not proud. Devil take the hindmost was a de riguer position and what is one to do when one is a kid? Self preservation was the order of the day.

A couple of my former classmates suicided over it. Decades later I still think I should have stepped up. But I had not, in those days, any means to do so.

Mé féin agus tada eile.

That's just how it was. Those were the facts on the ground at the time.

I think you could take comfort in the fact that you would not be believed anyway and told to **** off. This was Pell's reaction when Ridsdale tried to tell him about his uncle not that many years ago.
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Old 10th March 2019, 03:09 AM   #1284
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The 4 Corners presentation on the conviction of Pell is worth looking at. Not only showing material specifically about the molestation of the two 13 year old boys that he was convicted of but other incidents also. So many people telling the same story about the conduct of this vile deviant. A damning indictment.

This is a must watch for those who still think Pell is worthy of respect.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHBAyP2wjic
Shocking. Terrifying.

Has The Nimble Pianist watched it yet?
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Old 10th March 2019, 04:14 AM   #1285
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Yup. And having been that soldier, I know what went on. To my shame, at the time "I went rather him than me". I was left mostly alone because they quickly identified that I was likely to raise a ruckus. Others? Not so much.

It is something of which I am not proud. Devil take the hindmost was a de riguer position and what is one to do when one is a kid? Self preservation was the order of the day.

A couple of my former classmates suicided over it. Decades later I still think I should have stepped up. But I had not, in those days, any means to do so.

Mé féin agus tada eile.

That's just how it was. Those were the facts on the ground at the time.
Who knows what would have happened to you if you had tried to do something, you have nothing to be ashamed of
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Old 10th March 2019, 08:13 AM   #1286
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
Who knows what would have happened to you if you had tried to do something, you have nothing to be ashamed of
I could have done something. I didn't because I simply had not the confidence that comes with maturity.

I should have. People are dead because I didn't out of pure survival instinct. It was really creepy. As schoolkids we quickly identified the soft targets and distanced ourselves from that crap. We all knew what was going on and we all knew that we wanted to be a million miles from it. Once the target was selected, the rule was "Don't walk, sprint".

I am often minded of the antelope or wildebeest in the Serengetti. The lions take the easy target at the back of the herd. That's how it worked and we all knew it.

I wish that child me had the bottle to step up to the mark. I didn't. I cannot go back and erase that, it just isn't physically possible no matter how much I wish it were so.
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Old 11th March 2019, 02:02 PM   #1287
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I could have done something. I didn't because I simply had not the confidence that comes with maturity.

I should have. People are dead because I didn't out of pure survival instinct. It was really creepy. As schoolkids we quickly identified the soft targets and distanced ourselves from that crap. We all knew what was going on and we all knew that we wanted to be a million miles from it. Once the target was selected, the rule was "Don't walk, sprint".

I am often minded of the antelope or wildebeest in the Serengetti. The lions take the easy target at the back of the herd. That's how it worked and we all knew it.

I wish that child me had the bottle to step up to the mark. I didn't. I cannot go back and erase that, it just isn't physically possible no matter how much I wish it were so.

Having given this some thought I think you are being too hard on yourself.

I feel confident that when you were a child, you had no idea of the psychological harm being done to those victims. You may have thought it uncomfortable for them I would think, but not much more.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think it is only now, you realise the enormity of the vile assault that was done. This could possibly be said in defence of those that covered up, and even abused children in the distant past.

The more modern day perpetrators and concealers such as Pell, cannot hide behind this veil however. They knew the harm they were doing when they did it. Throw the book at them.
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:13 PM   #1288
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Breaking News!

Pell is sentenced to 6 years jail with a non parol period of 3 years and 8 months.
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:41 PM   #1289
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Is that the going rate in Australia for his crime in Australia? I know most industrialized nations don't have the lock em' up throw away the key sentencing guidelines the US has but this seems light.
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:55 PM   #1290
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Is that the going rate in Australia for his crime in Australia? I know most industrialized nations don't have the lock em' up throw away the key sentencing guidelines the US has but this seems light.
As lionking has pointed out in the dedicated thread, Pell's age and the fact that he would probably die in jail was taken into account. The maximum sentence that he could have got under Australian law is 10 years for each of the two counts, for a total of twenty, which would obviously exceed his expected lifespan.
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Old 19th March 2019, 01:37 AM   #1291
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It's the devil made them do it

https://www.buckinghamtoday.co.uk/ne...mpression=true
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Old 19th March 2019, 03:08 PM   #1292
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post

More meaningless bleating from Catholic clergy and the same old do nothing action.

From Filippo's article:

Quote:
Stephen Evans, CEO of The National Secular Society which campaigns for equal respect for everyone's human rights, so no one is either advantaged or disadvantaged because of their beliefs, said of this statement:
“Rather than more meaningless words from the Church we need to see concrete action that will help bring the guilty to secular justice and recompense to victims. Most notably we need to see the introduction of mandatory reporting of institutional abuse, including that disclosed in the confessional. Regrettably, the church remains opposed to such measures.”

And now we are hearing a politician drawing on the Christchurch massacre, as ammunition against pushing the Catholic Church, on the mandatory reporting issue. There are no depths to which politicians will not go.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-...-laws/10917960

Quote:
A Canberra politician has invoked the Christchurch shootings, in which 50 people were killed, to argue against a bill reforming child sex abuse laws.

On Tuesday afternoon Liberal MLA Giulia Jones said the bill — which would make it mandatory for Catholic priests to report child abuse disclosed in confession — was targeting people of faith.
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Old 19th March 2019, 03:11 PM   #1293
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Breaking News!

Pell is sentenced to 6 years jail with a non parol period of 3 years and 8 months.
Slapped with a wet bus ticket.
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Old 19th March 2019, 05:24 PM   #1294
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
And now we are hearing a politician drawing on the Christchurch massacre, as ammunition against pushing the Catholic Church, on the mandatory reporting issue. There are no depths to which politicians will not go.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-...-laws/10917960
Of course, the Liberals haven't been in charge in Canberra since 2001.
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Old 19th March 2019, 10:51 PM   #1295
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
More meaningless bleating from Catholic clergy and the same old do nothing action.

From Filippo's article:




And now we are hearing a politician drawing on the Christchurch massacre, as ammunition against pushing the Catholic Church, on the mandatory reporting issue. There are no depths to which politicians will not go.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-...-laws/10917960

It's breathtaking how the pope can look at all these inter-related incidents, and the systematic covering up, and have the gall to say, "yep, it's the devil"
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Old 19th March 2019, 11:10 PM   #1296
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I don't see why it should be particularly surprising. Satan is a standard part of Catholic doctrine.
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Old 20th March 2019, 02:13 PM   #1297
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
It's breathtaking how the pope can look at all these inter-related incidents, and the systematic covering up, and have the gall to say, "yep, it's the devil"

It's a wonder The Pope doesn't do something positive about this then and get some exorcisms happening. They could start with Pell if the stuff they needed can get past security in the prison. A few rosaries and crucifixes shouldn't trigger any alarms, although holy water can be explosive when it contacts demons, as we all know.

Back to the silly polly, Ms Jones, who's remarks triggered the above article, she said - "the point is that legislation should be done in a way that does not single out people because of their religion".

So there you have it. Atheists can't insist Catholics report on confession content if they don't report on their own. Can't be fairer than that can we? No more concealment of atheist admissions given under the sanctity of confession.
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Old 21st March 2019, 10:59 PM   #1298
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I don't see why it should be particularly surprising. Satan is a standard part of Catholic doctrine.
No, I shouldn't be surprised, but it underlines that they can't be relied on to police themselves if they have the ultimate, imaginary scapegoat to push all their misdeeds on to
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Old 22nd March 2019, 12:54 AM   #1299
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
No, I shouldn't be surprised, but it underlines that they can't be relied on to police themselves if they have the ultimate, imaginary scapegoat to push all their misdeeds on to

Hadn't thought about that angle before Filippo. Yes that is a convenient get out of jail card for the church. "Its not our fault its the Devils medaling, so leave us alone".
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Old 22nd March 2019, 09:50 AM   #1300
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Not a "get out of jail free card," more an "absolve yourself of responsibility" card
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Old 22nd March 2019, 03:01 PM   #1301
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As lionking has pointed out in the dedicated thread, Pell's age and the fact that he would probably die in jail was taken into account. The maximum sentence that he could have got under Australian law is 10 years for each of the two counts, for a total of twenty, which would obviously exceed his expected lifespan.
Personally I fail to see a problem.
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Old 23rd March 2019, 02:31 PM   #1302
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An opinion article by one Francis Sullivan. A Catholic struggling to come to terms with the rapid descent of his church.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-...e-now/10925554

Quote:
The Australian bishops must act. They are accountable only to the Pope and he is struggling to get on top of the issue.
They should voluntarily subject themselves to a transparent accountable mechanism that is not run by clerics. They must not use Canon Law as an excuse to avoid being accountable to both the Catholic and wider communities.

The above is just one of several measures he sees as necessary for his church to survive the situation it finds itself in. I wonder however if something would be surviving or something new pasted together.

The big drawcard the Catholics have clung to over the centuries is the claim of being the one true church. "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I shall build my church ......." are the words attributed to Jesus.

Now this Francis dude is suggesting the Pope should not be the overriding authority in the church? I say these are desperate words from someone trying to arrange deck chairs.
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Old 26th March 2019, 08:32 PM   #1303
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The Vatican set up a women's magazine run by women, then a man took over and everyone quit.

Vatican women's magazine staff quit in protest against 'male control'

Quote:
The all-female staff of the Vatican newspaper's monthly magazine on women's issues have resigned en masse, saying a new male editor was trying limit their autonomy and put them "under direct male control".

Women Church World, which is published alongside the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, has run a series of controversial stories, including on the sexual abuse of nuns by priests.

And Lucia Scaraffia, who started the magazine seven years ago, has called for a Vatican commission to investigate the sexual abuse of women in the Catholic Church.

In an open letter to Pope Francis, she said the 11 women who resigned felt they were being "reduced to silence", and she denounced an attempt to "return to the antiquated and arid custom of decisions from above, under direct male control".

"We are throwing in the towel because we feel surrounded by a climate of distrust and progressive de-legitimisation," Scaraffia wrote.
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Old 27th March 2019, 02:16 AM   #1304
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The Vatican set up a women's magazine run by women, then a man took over and everyone quit.



Vatican women's magazine staff quit in protest against 'male control'
But what did they ever expect? They seem to want to follow a different religion than the one they actually do. It's a case of cognitive dissonance, all three major branches of the Abrahamic religions are very clear that women are to be subservient to men.
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Old 27th March 2019, 02:19 PM   #1305
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The Vatican set up a women's magazine run by women, then a man took over and everyone quit.

Vatican women's magazine staff quit in protest against 'male control'

Good article arth thanks.

Just another example of window dressing in the Vatican though I think. I mean letting women have a voice that is, or to be more accurate giving the impression that women have a voice.

Just where did these women think they were going to take the RCC? Did they really think they could wrest male control from the Pope? The Pope is the Catholic Church, the very rock upon which it is built.

Women in Christian churches intrigue me. So desperate to get into the pulpit are some, and yet they cannot see that in getting there, they are undermining the authority of the scripture, that defines the church they are in.

A bit of fiddling with the characters may be the answer - "Thou art Mary and upon this rock .......... "
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:52 AM   #1306
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So now we have a spokes person for the Catholic Church, an archbishop no less, saying the church will not comply with the law, about priests reporting child sex abuse admitted to in the confessional.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-...-laws/10949054

Quote:
Speaking to ABC Radio Canberra, Archbishop for Canberra and Goulburn Christopher Prowse said it was not the church's role to report crimes, adding that he did not expect the issue of child abuse to be raised in the confessional.

Wow! He thinks the issue of child abuse will not be raised in the confessional!

Just think about this. The confessor will not think his abusing children is a noteworthy enough sin to confess to and obtain absolution. How else would you read this?
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:25 AM   #1307
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So now we have a spokes person for the Catholic Church, an archbishop no less, saying the church will not comply with the law, about priests reporting child sex abuse admitted to in the confessional.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-...-laws/10949054




Wow! He thinks the issue of child abuse will not be raised in the confessional!

Just think about this. The confessor will not think his abusing children is a noteworthy enough sin to confess to and obtain absolution. How else would you read this?
Or it is that the confessor is going to be afraid to admit their sin, because they know they will be turned in. So they lie about not sinning.

Isn't confession great?

On the other hand, if the confessor knows that what they say in the confessional won't be shared, then they can confess their crimes safely and get absolution from the priest, and that is important.

It's like that scene in O Brother Where Art Thou when Delmar gets baptized, and it washes away all his sins, including that Piggly Wiggly he robbed. Everitt says, "I thought you said you didn't do it?" "Well, I was lying, and now that's washed away, too!"
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Old 28th March 2019, 02:15 PM   #1308
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Or it is that the confessor is going to be afraid to admit their sin, because they know they will be turned in. So they lie about not sinning.

Isn't confession great?

On the other hand, if the confessor knows that what they say in the confessional won't be shared, then they can confess their crimes safely and get absolution from the priest, and that is important.

It's like that scene in O Brother Where Art Thou when Delmar gets baptized, and it washes away all his sins, including that Piggly Wiggly he robbed. Everitt says, "I thought you said you didn't do it?" "Well, I was lying, and now that's washed away, too!"

Well it would seem Catholic child abusing clergy don't think confession is so great.

The faith of these guys has to be brought into question. If they really believed they would have no hesitation in confessing. I mean this is the path to salvation by getting absolution isn't it? If you really believed you would have no hesitation in confessing, because a bit of punishment in this life is of no consequence, compared to an eternity in the flames of Hell! The strength of belief of these guys must be questionable.
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Old 28th March 2019, 03:53 PM   #1309
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well it would seem Catholic child abusing clergy don't think confession is so great.

The faith of these guys has to be brought into question. If they really believed they would have no hesitation in confessing. I mean this is the path to salvation by getting absolution isn't it? If you really believed you would have no hesitation in confessing, because a bit of punishment in this life is of no consequence, compared to an eternity in the flames of Hell! The strength of belief of these guys must be questionable.
There is very little belief. They are mostly in it for the perks. The higher you climb the more perks come your way. Plus you get to wear those nifty zipperless robes.
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Old 28th March 2019, 05:21 PM   #1310
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
There is very little belief. They are mostly in it for the perks. The higher you climb the more perks come your way. Plus you get to wear those nifty zipperless robes.

Well it seems the authorities in the RCC have this covered - you have to hand it to these guys. The idea that a priest has to be as pure as the driven snow is called Donatism and heresy.

From a Catholic source:

Quote:
Donatism (Latin: Donatismus, Greek: Δονατισμός Donatismós) was a schism in the Church of Carthage from the fourth to the sixth centuries AD. Donatists argued that Christian clergy must be faultless for their ministry to be effective and their prayers and sacraments to be valid.

And so:


Quote:
The issue of the disposition of the priest has arisen in the past. In the early 300s, the heresy of Donatism arose, which asserted that the validity of a sacrament depends upon the ministers orthodoxy and state of grace. For the Donatists, a priest who is a heretic or in a state of mortal sin cannot validly perform a sacrament; therefore, a person baptized by such a priest would have to be re-baptized. St. Augustine (d. 430), one of the great opponents of Donatism, ......
......
......

Therefore, the validity and efficacy of the sacrament do not depend upon the holiness or orthodoxy of the minister; rather the validity and efficacy are independent of the subjective constitution of the minister.
So there. Child molesting priests can still do the job.
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Old 2nd April 2019, 02:47 PM   #1311
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Well we now have more inspirational words from Pope Francis:

Quote:
Pope Francis recognises Catholic 'male authoritarianism', but refuses women priests
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-...hurch/10964788

Quote:
But while he said the Church should be "attentive to the legitimate claims of those women who seek greater justice and equality" and that young people had complained of a "lack of leading female role models," he offered no new ideas.
No new ideas and no initiatives that will lead to anything. Did we expect anything else? Francis made mention of the decline of the church, and the possibility the buildings would become museums in the future.

I for one would view that as a positive outcome.
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Old 2nd April 2019, 03:26 PM   #1312
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The shortage of clergy and a desire for small town Mexico to have a chapel with services at least twice a week has created a position for women here. They do a sort of training course and basically can do an entire mass in some small dirt road community.
This frees up priest types to stay in larger community areas and do whatever is required there.

My MIL did, and now one of her girls do that, and if disappointed that they hit a glass ceiling they are proud to serve the faith.

Both have been run out of places as locals disapproved of a sermon or just demand a real priest and not these authorized fakes. The stories were not pretty.
Abuela Juanita wants a man up there preaching and not the fake. These are community efforts of donated land, donated materials and labor to build and then pleas to be accepted and properly recognized as a real catholic church, the good folks want a real priest.

There aren't enough men that feel the faith to take on the job anymore. It's a sort of crisis that has been going on since my school years when my mother suggested I take the route of priesthood as such a cause must be preserved.
Not my plan, not by me.
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Old 2nd April 2019, 06:51 PM   #1313
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But what did they ever expect? They seem to want to follow a different religion than the one they actually do. It's a case of cognitive dissonance, all three major branches of the Abrahamic religions are very clear that women are to be subservient to men.
They want to make their religion better. I can understand that.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Wow! He thinks the issue of child abuse will not be raised in the confessional!

Just think about this. The confessor will not think his abusing children is a noteworthy enough sin to confess to and obtain absolution. How else would you read this?
I've posted this previously - it might be in this thread, it might be in another, I can't remember.

If a child abuser thinks it is important to confess, then they think it is important to receive absolution. Several priests have said that they will not give absolution for child abuse until the abuser turns themselves in to the police. An unabsolved Catholic cannot receive the Eucharist or any of the other sacraments. If the Catholic child abuser cares enough to confess their child abuse to a priest, then not receiving absolution is a big deal.

That's why he thinks that it won't be confessed.
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Old 3rd April 2019, 02:32 AM   #1314
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
They want to make their religion better. I can understand that.

.. snip....
I would disagree, what they want is the RCC to be a different religion so it fits what they want rather then them accepting the teachings and doctrines of the RCC.
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Old 3rd April 2019, 07:03 AM   #1315
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I would disagree, what they want is the RCC to be a different religion so it fits what they want rather then them accepting the teachings and doctrines of the RCC.
And all three are clear about pork being unfit for human consumption but you see a lot of bacon in the stores in christian countries. All religious are great at picking and choosing what to follow or ignore.
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Old 3rd April 2019, 07:22 AM   #1316
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The RCC in Rome isn't exactly the same as Latin America or African areas because they allow local woo to exist and become part of the celebration big faith. It is the secret of RCC success.

Islam comes in and suppresses local woo which isn't exactly endearing in a missionary.

In a place where eating guinea pigs was a life sustaining need the missionaries were able to overlook that detail to have living converts. It wasn't a hard choice.
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Old 3rd April 2019, 02:04 PM   #1317
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
They want to make their religion better. I can understand that.

I've posted this previously - it might be in this thread, it might be in another, I can't remember.

If a child abuser thinks it is important to confess, then they think it is important to receive absolution. Several priests have said that they will not give absolution for child abuse until the abuser turns themselves in to the police. An unabsolved Catholic cannot receive the Eucharist or any of the other sacraments. If the Catholic child abuser cares enough to confess their child abuse to a priest, then not receiving absolution is a big deal.

That's why he thinks that it won't be confessed.

You just don't get it do you?

As I wrote above:

Quote:
The faith of these guys has to be brought into question. If they really believed they would have no hesitation in confessing. I mean this is the path to salvation by getting absolution isn't it? If you really believed you would have no hesitation in confessing, because a bit of punishment in this life is of no consequence, compared to an eternity in the flames of Hell! The strength of belief of these guys must be questionable.

Do you really think a Catholic who really believed this stuff would hesitate in confessional, knowing the consequences of not obtaining absolution? A few years in prison here versus eternal damnation!
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Old 3rd April 2019, 02:12 PM   #1318
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
The RCC in Rome isn't exactly the same as Latin America or African areas because they allow local woo to exist and become part of the celebration big faith. It is the secret of RCC success.

Islam comes in and suppresses local woo which isn't exactly endearing in a missionary.

In a place where eating guinea pigs was a life sustaining need the missionaries were able to overlook that detail to have living converts. It wasn't a hard choice.

Yes it is most interesting how the RCC has managed to absorb all that local woo as it takes over new territory. They do this while maintaining the facade of being the true original church that Jesus gave the nod to.
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Last edited by Thor 2; 3rd April 2019 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 3rd April 2019, 02:21 PM   #1319
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
They want to make their religion better. I can understand that.

I've posted this previously - it might be in this thread, it might be in another, I can't remember.

If a child abuser thinks it is important to confess, then they think it is important to receive absolution. Several priests have said that they will not give absolution for child abuse until the abuser turns themselves in to the police. An unabsolved Catholic cannot receive the Eucharist or any of the other sacraments. If the Catholic child abuser cares enough to confess their child abuse to a priest, then not receiving absolution is a big deal.

That's why he thinks that it won't be confessed.
Someone needs to test this out. Go to a confession and admit child abuse. See what happens.
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Old 3rd April 2019, 04:45 PM   #1320
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Someone needs to test this out. Go to a confession and admit child abuse. See what happens.
I strongly suggest that nobody do this.
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