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Old 18th August 2018, 06:46 AM   #41
Craig4
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Just read Bill Donahue's response to the Pennslvania Scandle and just about threw up.
Even the Catholic Heirachy admits there is very serious problem, but not BIll Donahue.
Quote:
Most of the alleged victims were not raped: they were groped or otherwise abused, but not penetrated

I got this far and stopped. That guy is a complete moral sinkhole.
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Old 18th August 2018, 07:11 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
Not everyone would pass the desert island test: stranded with someone of your own sex and no hope of rescue, what would you do? Prison sex is a case in point. It depends what's available.
I'm pretty confident that non consensual sex with a minor is a boundary I would not cross. When I was a terribly lonely and terribly horny teenager, never ever ever did it even cross my mind to pursue a minor. Frankly, there was never a drive to, never mind the immorality of it. That's my point. I just wasn't and have never been interested. I wanted females with mature female parts like boobs hips and such. I had male friends my age. Again, never did it even enter my mind to pursue one of them "instead". That simply was just not something I was craving. The dude would not have hips and boobs and pretty eyes and long hair etc etc.

Besides, if said priests really wanted sex with adult females or adult men they could secretly masturbate/fantasize or pursue a prostitute. Such priests are hardly "in prison". They were clearly willing to break the rules anyway. Why do it with a child unless they were (barf) explicitly interested in that kind of "sex".

I just don't buy the idea that being deprived of sexual outlet with an adult leads to you being attracted to a child. Speaking at least for myself anyway.
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Old 18th August 2018, 07:13 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I got this far and stopped. That guy is a complete moral sinkhole.
Totally. He would be one of the guys in the catholic administration hiding the crimes for "the good of mother church".
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Old 18th August 2018, 11:46 AM   #44
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A college friend of mine converted to Catholicism and became a priest. Years later he left the priesthood and came out as gay. I'm certain that not having to show an attraction to women was a major part of his wanting to be a priest.
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Old 18th August 2018, 11:51 AM   #45
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Old 18th August 2018, 11:54 AM   #46
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Old 18th August 2018, 04:40 PM   #47
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This list updated August 18, 2018 7:41 p.m. EDT

Possible reasons why Pennsylvania church officials haven't been prosecuted:
  • Church-connected influence
  • Failed to prove criminal intent
  • Statute of limitations had passed
  • Case never made it to court
  • Financial settlement agreement
  • Agreement other than financial
  • Fraudulent concealment (as an exception to statute of limitations)
  • Case open/in progress
  • Seal of the Confessional

Please add or correct wording to the list if I missed something.
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Old 18th August 2018, 06:07 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
To be fair, those concerns are all of the pragmatic sort. ugh. One must also be sexually attracted to children, and willing to act on that. I find it hard to imagine on being attracted to women, but for practical reasons, manually switching that attraction to children.

Apologies if instead you are being ironic/sarcastic and it went whooosh over my thick skull.
No I am serious and the Church is pragmatic (dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations) at least as far as money is concerned. Maybe not in other ways.

As for priests being sexually attracted to children, read this post below. Just change gay to attracted to children and a good reason for that sort of person to become a priest. Come to think of it the high ups would know that if they kicked them all out and the gays too there would not be too many priests left!


Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
A college friend of mine converted to Catholicism and became a priest. Years later he left the priesthood and came out as gay. I'm certain that not having to show an attraction to women was a major part of his wanting to be a priest.
NB: Just in case anyone is thinking of jumping on me being gay and being attract to children are two different types of people.
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Old 20th August 2018, 09:31 AM   #49
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A system limits accountability and public disclosure

Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
This list updated August 17, 2018 7:35 a.m. EDT

Possible reasons why Pennsylvania church officials haven't been prosecuted:
  • Need to prove criminal intent
  • Statute of limitations had passed
  • Case never made it to court
  • Financial settlement
  • Agreement other than financial
  • Fraudulent concealment as an exception to statute of limitations
  • Case in progress
  • Seal of the Confessional

Please add or correct wording to the list if I missed something.
The church influencing public officials?

I think Diablo's suggestion–The church influencing public officials?–is the main reason why there have been so few criminal prosecutions, civil lawsuits, and public disclosure.

I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I find it troubling that 99 of the 301 Catholic "predator priests" identified in the grand jury Report were from the Roman Catholic Diocese of Pittsburgh. Is Pittsburgh more crooked than other places?

After a priest committed child sex abuse, who covered it up? Cover-ups took coordination, collusion, and conspiracy.

A system shields criminals from prosecution, civil liability, and public disclosure. Can the findings of the grand jury Report, and Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro, help stop corruption?
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Last edited by Ernie M; 20th August 2018 at 09:57 AM. Reason: Added some words for clarification.
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Old 20th August 2018, 09:45 AM   #50
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I feel the fact that there are 70 million Catholics in the United States and they are arguably the largest demographic by far in several swing states... is pretty much the only fact you have to accept as true to understand why nothing will happen to Catholic Church long term over this.
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Old 20th August 2018, 11:01 AM   #51
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Priests run amok

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I feel the fact that there are 70 million Catholics in the United States and they are arguably the largest demographic by far in several swing states... is pretty much the only fact you have to accept as true to understand why nothing will happen to Catholic Church long term over this.

Can you please clarify? I'm not sure I understand.

Church-connected influence is at the top of the current list. Do you feel that's accurate, or, do you think it needs to be reworded? Or do you think having a general statement would be better than a list?

Clergy sex abuse against children, and adults, has been committed. Cover-ups followed. Victims were manipulated and maligned.

Have Catholic priests and the Catholic Church run amok because there's such a great number of Catholics that dictate everything?

Note:
A long time ago in a college poetry class (I didn't do well in), a classmate suggested a (better) title for a sonnet I wrote. The poem didn't have any priests, but the person suggested I title the poem, "Priests Run Amok." I'm using the poem title for the title of this post.
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Last edited by Ernie M; 20th August 2018 at 12:40 PM. Reason: Changed some wording, changed highlighting.
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Old 20th August 2018, 03:31 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I feel the fact that there are 70 million Catholics in the United States and they are arguably the largest demographic by far in several swing states... is pretty much the only fact you have to accept as true to understand why nothing will happen to Catholic Church long term over this.
I think many Catholics would like to see the guilty brought to justice, but object to basically, having their relgion totally dismantled in legal proceedngs.
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Old 20th August 2018, 03:48 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
This is really a training problem. I bet, dollars for doughnuts that their Archdioceses has a training program and they train people to inform the level of authority that has historically been the problem. They need to train their people to call the police. This problem won't go away until the janitors, teacher's assistants, teachers, coaches get a thorough training in calling the police. This is easy. Find the point of failure and go around it. It's a basic principle if failure analysis.

The diocese and archdiocese are probably telling employees, volunteers and staff to report abuse to their leaders in the diocese and archdiocese. That's the echelon of command who continually ***** this up. Teach these people to call the police.


There would still be a statue of Joe Paterno at Penn State if they taught their staff to call the police. The worst possible thing you can do here is give the decision making authority to people with an interest in protecting the institution. School principals, athletic directors, executive coaches are not trained to or empowered to investigate sex crimes against children. The police have those people and those authorities. Call them. The Archdiocese in Pennsylvania would not be in the state that it's in if they had just trained their employees to call the police.
You are quite right and it is not limited to abuse.

I remember in high school that the public school down the road had some very high profile crime busts on campus: a theft ring and a drug ring or two.

At the same time when people were caught stealing lots of items at our Catholic school there were no police called. When large amounts of drugs were discovered in a distributable form in a persons back pack, no police were called. The only time there were police on campus was off-duty cops acting as security. In my four years in catholic school not one time was a crime reported on campus, despite the fact that multiple crimes were uncovered by the priests.

It would not have been good for the institution.
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Old 21st August 2018, 05:07 AM   #54
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I'm curious to know what the fraction of abusive priests overall is, and whether it lines up with Boston's. (What was that one, 6%?) Has anyone ran the numbers with some basic common-sense assumptions like "no, the child abuse did not suddenly stop in sync with the statute of limitations, we can assume it was and is ongoing at about the same rate?"
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Old 21st August 2018, 05:40 AM   #55
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Pope Francis is up there apologizing now. A cynic might say he is 'reacting'.

I don't detest this guy as much as some other popes, but I think he will continue to hit brick walls within his organization if he tries to implement real change.

I will reserve my judgement for the actions that take place in the future, rather than the words.
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Old 21st August 2018, 06:07 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
Pope Francis is up there apologizing now. A cynic might say he is 'reacting'.

I don't detest this guy as much as some other popes, but I think he will continue to hit brick walls within his organization if he tries to implement real change.

I will reserve my judgement for the actions that take place in the future, rather than the words.
I don't know how long he'll last. A bunch of Cardinals recent revolted in response to his declaration that the death penalty is wrong. Now he admits that the church messed up.

This can't go on too much longer.
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Old 21st August 2018, 06:27 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
Clergy sex abuse against children, and adults, has been committed. Cover-ups followed. Victims were manipulated and maligned.

Have Catholic priests and the Catholic Church run amok because there's such a great number of Catholics that dictate everything?
Well... yeah. At least in the sense that "Catholics" are far too large a demographic in the US to risk upsetting.

The narrative will stay that they are "isolated cases" that don't reflect the "overall church" because that's what the Catholics want to hear.

RICO charges against the Church? *Laughs* Okay and in the words of Harrigan from Sin City once you've don that you can go and punch out God.

Any suggestion from anyone in an actual position to do anything about it that the Church itself as an organization is complicit in this would be political suicide.

"When they feel like it the RTC will deign to allow us to throw an occasional priest under the bus but will never give more than a token and consequences free acknowledgment of any organizational wrongdoing" will remain the standard.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 21st August 2018 at 06:55 AM.
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Old 21st August 2018, 06:41 AM   #58
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Celibacy bad, consenting adult sex good. Time the Bible and the RC Church caught up.


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Old 21st August 2018, 09:06 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
I think Diablo's suggestion–The church influencing public officials?–is the main reason why there have been so few criminal prosecutions, civil lawsuits, and public disclosure.
Of course they spend a lot of money lobbying to keep the statue of limitations as short as possible.

https://www.businessinsider.com/r-as...justice-2015-9
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Old 21st August 2018, 09:10 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think many Catholics would like to see the guilty brought to justice, but object to basically, having their relgion totally dismantled in legal proceedngs.
Eractly and they had to pick so they are ok with their local leadership sending rapist priests to disney world.

https://nypost.com/2018/08/15/church...ney-world-gig/
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Old 21st August 2018, 09:54 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course they spend a lot of money lobbying to keep the statue of limitations as short as possible.

https://www.businessinsider.com/r-as...justice-2015-9
Nice link. This para really stood out for me:

As many as 100,000 U.S. children may have been the victims of clerical sex abuse, insurance experts said in a paper presented at a Vatican conference in 2012. Some 4,300 members of the Catholic clergy were accused of sexual assault, of which at least 300 have been convicted, according to Bishop Accountability, a private group that has tracked the scandal.

Wow, just wow.
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Old 22nd August 2018, 05:02 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
You are quite right and it is not limited to abuse.

I remember in high school that the public school down the road had some very high profile crime busts on campus: a theft ring and a drug ring or two.

At the same time when people were caught stealing lots of items at our Catholic school there were no police called. When large amounts of drugs were discovered in a distributable form in a persons back pack, no police were called. The only time there were police on campus was off-duty cops acting as security. In my four years in catholic school not one time was a crime reported on campus, despite the fact that multiple crimes were uncovered by the priests.

It would not have been good for the institution.
I bet that if I watched whatever training video on sexual abuse prevention for employees and volunteers, they would still be teaching their staff to report to their historic failure point.
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Old 22nd August 2018, 01:13 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I bet that if I watched whatever training video on sexual abuse prevention for employees and volunteers, they would still be teaching their staff to report to their historic failure point.
I would almost guarantee it. See Baylor, et al.
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Old 22nd August 2018, 06:27 PM   #64
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It's a crushing irony that the man who should be screaming from the pulpit, "call the police" actually has a pulpit.
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Old 25th August 2018, 03:04 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
As many as 100,000 U.S. children may have been the victims of clerical sex abuse
I wonder how many of those children got pregnant.
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Old 25th August 2018, 09:26 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I wonder how many of those children got pregnant.
And how many had abortions?
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Old 26th August 2018, 12:28 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I wonder how many of those children got pregnant.
Even worse, how many get some sexually transmitted infections? And how many got prompt treatment and how many were scarred, either physically or physiologically?
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Old 26th August 2018, 09:12 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Even worse, how many get some sexually transmitted infections?
I don't know about the incidence of VD in the priest community. Where would it come from and how would it spread? Are priests screwing each other as well as the kids?
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Old 26th August 2018, 04:12 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I don't know about the incidence of VD in the priest community. Where would it come from and how would it spread? Are priests screwing each other as well as the kids?
It only takes one priest to have sex with someone with such a disease and that person would spread it to many children. If the children then get abused by others, it would spread widely. And if children went to the doctors with symptoms, VD would be a zebra, not a horse.
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Old 26th August 2018, 04:23 PM   #70
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Anecdotally, I'm aware of a case from when I was a sophomore in high school in the archdiocese of Seattle. This would have been the mid 80s. The priest was hiring male prostitutes in addition to raping the altar boys. The priest was sent away to a long term retreat and for medical care after he came back positive for HIV. That caused a great deal of concern and many youths he came in contact with got interviewed. I don't know if he spread it or to how many people. It was a big deal for about two weeks and then...crickets.
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Old 26th August 2018, 04:27 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I would almost guarantee it. See Baylor, et al.
I should start a training company for the IRCC, Boy Scouts, Penn State, Michigan State. I'll teach them how to react to sex abuse. I'm going to call the training video, "Call the **** ing police stupid".
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Old 26th August 2018, 06:16 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I should start a training company for the IRCC, Boy Scouts, Penn State, Michigan State. I'll teach them how to react to sex abuse. I'm going to call the training video, "Call the **** ing police stupid".
Are you blaming the victims?
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Old 26th August 2018, 06:19 PM   #73
TheGoldcountry
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Are you blaming the victims?
No, he's blaming the people that know about it and keep quiet. Or, only tell other people they know will keep quiet.
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Old 27th August 2018, 11:30 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
No, he's blaming the people that know about it and keep quiet. Or, only tell other people they know will keep quiet.
Indeed, those who are trying to protect the good name of their institution. No reason to involve outsiders.
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Old 27th August 2018, 12:27 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
No, he's blaming the people that know about it and keep quiet. Or, only tell other people they know will keep quiet.
Depends on how catholic one is and hence how much one views the children as the true perpetrators seducing innocent priests. That makes the priest and the church the victims of those wanton children.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 04:49 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Are you blaming the victims?
No, it's the staff who become aware of the abuse. All those institutions tell the layer of command that's the problem. I'm not expecting the victims to call the police; I know that rarely happens. But when parents, teachers, nuns, custodians become aware of these things (as happened in many cases) they call the people who historically make it worse.
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Old 12th November 2018, 12:49 PM   #77
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"Vatican orders US bishops to delay taking action on sexual abuse crisis" CNN

CNN reported1 that the
Quote:
Vatican has told the US Conference of Catholic Bishops to delay voting on measures to hold bishops accountable for failing to protect children from sexual abuse...
And,
Quote:
At the same time, the Vatican’s ambassador to the United States suggested that bishops should not be held accountable by lay people in the church, and should not look to law enforcement to confront the church’s sexual abuse crisis.
according to The Washington Post.2


I get the sense the Vatican is moving to ensure self-policing of itself.

1. Burke, Daniel. (2018 November 12). Vatican orders US bishops to delay taking action on sexual abuse crisis. Retrieved from cnn.com.

2. Julie Zauzmer and Michelle Boorstein. (2018 November 12). Vatican tells U.S. bishops not to vote on proposals to tackle sexual abuse, spurns lay investigations. Retrieved from washingtonpost.com
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Old 24th February 2019, 08:50 AM   #78
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"Top Catholic cardinal admits church destroyed documents on clergy sexual abuse" CNN

German Cardinal Reinhard Marx spoke on Saturday, 23 February 2019, the third day of the four-day summit in the Vatican. The day's theme was about transparency. Cardinal Marx's quotes pertain to a study commissioned by German bishops in 2014.1

CNN's article says,
Quote:
"A member of Pope Francis' inner circle of advisers, Marx is one of the most powerful men in the Catholic Church."

The following quotes are from German Cardinal Reinhard Marx:
  • "Files that could have documented the terrible deeds and named those responsible were destroyed or not even created,"

  • "The stipulated procedures and processes for the prosecution offenses were deliberately not complied with," he added, "but instead canceled and overridden.

  • "Such standard practices will make it clear that it is not transparency which damages the church, but rather the acts of abuse committed, the lack of transparency, or the ensuing coverup."

  • "The study indicates that some documents were manipulated or did not contain what they should have contained," Marx said. "The fact in itself cannot be denied."

  • "I assume Germany is not an isolated case."
United Press International (UPI) quotes Cardinal Reinhard Marx saying:2
  • "Instead of the perpetrators, the victims were regulated and silence imposed on them."

Cardinal Reinhard Marx's speech gave some insight as to how and why clerical sexual abuse didn't become public, and, why there's been little or no criminal convictions for those who raped and molested children (and adults).

Sources:

1. Burke, Daniel, and Rosa Flores. "Top Catholic cardinal admits church destroyed documents on clergy sexual abuse." CNN, Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. 23 February 2019. edition.cnn.com/2019/02/23/europe/cardinal-documents-destroyed/index.html

2. Cone, Allen. "Cardinal: Church destroyed documents on clergy sex abuse." United Press International (UPI), News World Communications. 23 February 2019. upi.com/Cardinal-Church-destroyed-documents-on-clergy-sex-abuse/8561550947858/
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Old 24th February 2019, 02:52 PM   #79
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