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Tags 2020 elections , Michael Bloomberg , presidential candidates

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Old 20th February 2020, 06:55 AM   #361
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
yours noted as well
I don't make a habit of answering questions posed to me in an effort to evade my own.

Effective dialogue requires both give and take.

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
He entered the race the second Sanders and Warren said the words "wealth tax." All the money he's spent in the race so far is still a fraction of what their plans would cost him every year. This is an investment to him.
I was skeptical of this, but found a useful calculator. (Click "Yes" then click Bloomberg.)

Or just read this.

ETA: It strikes me as a rational move to burn through a few billion in order to save many more, but running oneself wasn't the smart play. Bloomberg could've blanketed Super Tuesday states in pro-Amy agitprop instead, or gotten behind any other moderate Dem.
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Old 20th February 2020, 07:30 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
He entered the race the second Sanders and Warren said the words "wealth tax." All the money he's spent in the race so far is still a fraction of what their plans would cost him every year. This is an investment to him.

Since his very presence at this debate is due to his wealth, not likability or policies, I'd say his wealth is fair game for criticism.

Bloomberg has proposed increasing taxes on the wealthy, including himself.
Quote:
Billionaire Democratic candidate Mike Bloomberg unveiled a tax plan on Saturday that would unwind corporate tax breaks granted by President Donald Trump and impose an additional 5% “surtax” on incomes above $5 million a year.

According to the campaign, the plan in total would generate roughly $5 trillion and would be sufficient to help fund Bloomberg’s initiatives, including his healthcare plan, education, combating climate change and more than $1 trillion infrastructure plan.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/01/bill...5-million.html

And:
https://www.fool.com/taxes/2020/02/0...d-to-know.aspx

Considering how much Bloomberg has donated to charities and public causes, I am willing to believe that he is not entirely motivated by self-interest.

Last edited by Bob001; 20th February 2020 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 20th February 2020, 07:36 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Like it or not, there are believable instances wherein false allegations are made against wealthy people in the hopes of gaining an advantage.
It is also understandable how it might be less costly to an individual targeted by such an allegation to make a quiet settlement with the accuser.

I am not automatically put-off by the existence of such an arrangement. Although, admittedly, it would be better if there were none, since doubt could be removed.

I think my viewpoint is widely held.

And, I think, wrong.

I don't think wealth should put one above the law. False accusations are an issue for everyone. I don't think they should only be an issue for those that can buy their way out of it.
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Old 20th February 2020, 07:44 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Bloomberg has proposed increasing taxes on the wealthy, including himself.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/01/bill...5-million.html

And:
https://www.fool.com/taxes/2020/02/0...d-to-know.aspx

Considering how much Bloomberg has donated to charities and public causes, I am willing to believe that he is not entirely motivated by self-interest.

I think he spends money managing his image.
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Old 20th February 2020, 07:55 AM   #365
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Bloomberg's policies are very progressive - including a transaction tax.
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Old 20th February 2020, 07:56 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Bloomberg's policies are very progressive - including a transaction tax.
He has a credibility problem. Nothing about his current platform can erase his history as a center-right Republican and aspiring authoritarian.
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Old 20th February 2020, 08:06 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
He has a credibility problem. Nothing about his current platform can erase his history as a center-right Republican and aspiring authoritarian.
I don't think that's true.
Unlike Trump, Bloomberg is actually admitting his mistakes. And it must be possible for a 80+ year old to change his opinion.
But it very much requires credibility and visible contrition - something that he might not be able to muster.
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Old 20th February 2020, 08:12 AM   #368
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Watching the debate, something he said which I hadn’t heard mentioned but was an odd answer. When asked what to do about China’s pollution, the first thing he said was “we can’t go to war with them!” Who said anything about that? Then “we have to tell them that their kids will die too!” Seems strange as though he thinks China are polluting the world to...what? To kill American kids or something and that they lack awareness of what climate change means...?
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Old 20th February 2020, 08:46 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post

Considering how much Bloomberg has donated to charities and public causes, I am willing to believe that he is not entirely motivated by self-interest.
1) those donations are tax deductible

2) he seems to have been using those donations to buy position within those movements. He's leveraging them to his political advantage now.
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Old 20th February 2020, 08:48 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I don't think that's true.
Unlike Trump, Bloomberg is actually admitting his mistakes.
No, he isn't. He completely dismissed the criticisms. He even eye rolled when Warren brought up the 40 suits by 64 women for sexual harassment.

Quote:
And it must be possible for a 80+ year old to change his opinion.
But it very much requires credibility and visible contrition - something that he might not be able to muster.
He backed Republicans in several swing districts in 2018, several of which those Republicans won by hair thin margins.
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Old 20th February 2020, 08:52 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What would have been a good answer? If you unilaterally release people from NDAs you're just giving money away; that's a mug's game.


The answer is to not run for president when you have been systematically distributing hush money to cover up your record of misogyny unless you are willing to get it all out in the open. You get to choose one of the two.

Past that, when you are stumbling over the question like you didn't expect to have to answer it even though it was obviously going to be an issue, don't minimize things that required you to pay hush money as "women didn't like my jokes."
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Old 20th February 2020, 08:53 AM   #372
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Seriously, who prepped him for last night? Is he so surrounded by yes men that no one is willing to point out the obvious attack points?
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:02 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I don't think that's true.
Unlike Trump, Bloomberg is actually admitting his mistakes. And it must be possible for a 80+ year old to change his opinion.
But it very much requires credibility and visible contrition - something that he might not be able to muster.
Credibility is a thing. His candidacy gives me flashbacks to the 2016 WV Governors race where a billionaire named Jim Justice, a former Republican, ran as a Democrat and made the same sorts of noises. He bought the nomination with crazy spending in an open primary state and squeaked through the general.

About a year later he, on stage with Trump, declared his return to the GOP.

It was professional wrestling type stuff and it makes me real cynical about people crossing aisles when doing so makes it far easier to grab the reins of the party.
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:05 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Bloomberg's best move is to use his massive fortune to create an artificial island, pay enough people to move there, and declare himself god-king.
He almost pulled this off already, but Manhattan might have not been the optimal target.
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:06 AM   #375
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I said early in the thread that until Bloomberg is on the debate stage, we can't tell what kind of candidate he is.
I guess we know now.
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:12 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
He almost pulled this off already, but Manhattan might have not been the optimal target.
I dunno, the spiking real estate costs seems to be working to that end.
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:15 AM   #377
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Bloomberg should buy Fox News, or at least bribe talking heads to quit and replace them with his own.
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:20 AM   #378
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Oh, I don't hugely care. Yep, a billionaire buying the presidency in a thoroughly corrupt political system, but at least a billionaire who seems reasonably, if not hugely, competent with several pretty sensible policies. Maybe this is the future for the "shining city on a hill": variously competent billionaires presiding over crap educational system, stripped down oversight on big business and especially big finance and increasingly hereditary social classes.
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:23 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
The answer is to not run for president when you have been systematically distributing hush money to cover up your record of misogyny unless you are willing to get it all out in the open.
Yeah, but what should he have said?

(Imagine you were hired to prep him, and you saw this one coming.)
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:30 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Yeah, but what should he have said?

(Imagine you were hired to prep him, and you saw this one coming.)
I am suspending my campaign.
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:35 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Credibility is a thing. His candidacy gives me flashbacks to the 2016 WV Governors race where a billionaire named Jim Justice, a former Republican, ran as a Democrat and made the same sorts of noises. He bought the nomination with crazy spending in an open primary state and squeaked through the general.

About a year later he, on stage with Trump, declared his return to the GOP.
Your cynicism/suspicious are certainly warranted, given the similarity between the situations.

It should be noted however that in the case of Jim Justice, it appears as if his temporary switch to the Democrats was something that occurred just prior to his political run.

On the other hand, while Bloomberg had been a republican at one point, he appears to have been drifting away from their party for some time (even endorsing Obama.) He's supported abortion rights, action on climate change, and gun control. Whether he HAD been a republican in the past, his policies would mean he doesn't fit in the Republican party of today.
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:40 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Quote:
Considering how much Bloomberg has donated to charities and public causes, I am willing to believe that he is not entirely motivated by self-interest.
1) those donations are tax deductible
Even if they are tax deductible, I doubt very much that he would receive anywhere near the amount he donated as tax rebates. He still ends up out-of-pocket through his donations.
Quote:
2) he seems to have been using those donations to buy position within those movements. He's leveraging them to his political advantage now.
Seems you've set him up in a sort of no-win situation.... even if he agrees to donate all his money to fund abortion clinics and live the rest of his life in a cardboard box on the street, you'd still probably find a way to suggest that its some sort of secret plot to push for "big cardboard box" or whatever.
Quote:
He backed Republicans in several swing districts in 2018, several of which those Republicans won by hair thin margins.
That IS a significant issue, and one that Bloomberg should answer to (just to see if he as any sort of justification). I hope one of his opponents raises the issue in a future debate.
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:42 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Yeah, but what should he have said?

(Imagine you were hired to prep him, and you saw this one coming.)
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:42 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Yeah, but what should he have said?

(Imagine you were hired to prep him, and you saw this one coming.)
I wouldn't have been there. I'd have gone through all potential attacks with my team, worked out in advance that the question was unanswerable and I would have decided to spend the day spending bucketloads of my money to make me feel better.


He needs to sack his people, they're giving him **** advice. Like "run for office"

He should stick to telling 'jokes' to his female employees so he can shower them with hush money.
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:43 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
I am suspending my campaign.
I'd like that as well, but let's try to imagine that we're actually giving him advice. What do you think would've been a good answer?
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:46 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Yeah, but what should he have said?

(Imagine you were hired to prep him, and you saw this one coming.)
I wouldn't, because I have moral standards for whom I choose to work for.

Failing that, I would have told him to just say yes and deal with the fallout.

If I want to go total amoral campaign strategist just say yes then go out and offer new large cash NDAs on the grounds they keep quiet about the original one we just publicly released. EZ game.

Or just promise to have your lawyers write up such a release so that it protects third parties and then just don't do it, boycott the rest of the debates because reasons and stick to spending absurd amounts of money for TV time and use that gaslight people into thinking it is no big deal.
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:49 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
I wouldn't, because I have moral standards for whom I choose to work for.

I have to say, I consider myself a moral man.

I think, if Mike were utterly desperate for my opinion, there is a price for which I would momentarily pack my morals away and deal with the guilt later.

If anyone knows Mike, do update him, he'll be over the moon...
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:51 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Even if they are tax deductible, I doubt very much that he would receive anywhere near the amount he donated as tax rebates. He still ends up out-of-pocket through his donations.
He also ends up with the publicity and good PR. Those have a monetary value. Ask the Koch brothers.

Quote:
Seems you've set him up in a sort of no-win situation.... even if he agrees to donate all his money to fund abortion clinics and live the rest of his life in a cardboard box on the street, you'd still probably find a way to suggest that its some sort of secret plot to push for "big cardboard box" or whatever.
Or there could be a happy middle ground. Like don't nakedly play both sides and purchase progressive movements so you can redirect them to your own benefit while using them as a shield.

Quote:
That IS a significant issue, and one that Bloomberg should answer to (just to see if he as any sort of justification). I hope one of his opponents raises the issue in a future debate.
Sanders did a little. Bloomberg did directly finance Republican Scott Brown's campaign in 2012, whom Warren unseated. It probably would have looked a little petty if she brought that up. Still, there is so much there.
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Old 20th February 2020, 10:00 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'd like that as well, but let's try to imagine that we're actually giving him advice. What do you think would've been a good answer?
There's a reason I'm an IT guy and not a political consultant, but I'll take a shot.

There's no denying the NDAs exist. Were I slimy, I'd tell him to downplay his role and simply say he was named in them because it was his company and he personally didn't do any of the actions deemed offensive. I'd also say those are all decades old and that behavior has not been tolerated in his company for some time.

I'd also say to feign concern for the plaintiffs' security and privacy by not wanting to expose them to the media circus and nasty Twitter trolls while glancing at Bernie.

Then launch into a rant about sensationalist tabloid media, online attacks by political operatives, and wish we could go back to the good old days of civility.
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Old 20th February 2020, 10:01 AM   #390
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Actually that's pretty good.

(Are you sure you're an IT guy?)
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Old 20th February 2020, 10:03 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Bloomberg should buy Fox News, or at least bribe talking heads to quit and replace them with his own.
Why should he do that? What sense would it make?
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Old 20th February 2020, 10:04 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'd like that as well, but let's try to imagine that we're actually giving him advice. What do you think would've been a good answer?
I can't imagine any "good" answers, but there probably is a "least bad" answer. Not sure what that would be.

I don't think the difference between the least bad answer and the answer he gave would have been significant. This is like plugging pin-hole leaks in a sinking ship that has been torn in half. The damage control potential is pretty limited.
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Old 20th February 2020, 10:04 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why should he do that? What sense would it make?
It might be a more efficient use of his billions, given his publicly stated goals.
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Old 20th February 2020, 10:06 AM   #394
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Where does Bloomberg stand on the starting unnecessary wars issue? Some have put him to the right of Trump due to his Iraq war behavior.
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Old 20th February 2020, 10:07 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I have to say, I consider myself a moral man.

I think, if Mike were utterly desperate for my opinion, there is a price for which I would momentarily pack my morals away and deal with the guilt later.

If anyone knows Mike, do update him, he'll be over the moon...
I've been in similar spots, tried it once and it almost killed me. When you sell what you are as a person to do what you see as evil, you either become someone else or you die in every way that matters.

I imagine if it is an issue of literally not starving to death then maybe, but usually these choices are made by people that have some other way to support themselves.
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Old 20th February 2020, 10:12 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Actually that's pretty good.
Seconded.
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Old 20th February 2020, 10:17 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Seconded.
Yeah, that's some top spinnage.
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Old 20th February 2020, 10:28 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
There's a reason I'm an IT guy and not a political consultant, but I'll take a shot.

There's no denying the NDAs exist. Were I slimy, I'd tell him to downplay his role and simply say he was named in them because it was his company and he personally didn't do any of the actions deemed offensive. I'd also say those are all decades old and that behavior has not been tolerated in his company for some time.

I'd also say to feign concern for the plaintiffs' security and privacy by not wanting to expose them to the media circus and nasty Twitter trolls while glancing at Bernie.

Then launch into a rant about sensationalist tabloid media, online attacks by political operatives, and wish we could go back to the good old days of civility.
Equal disaster, really. The only move on the stage is to agree to release these NDAs and then work around it later. He has to win the moment and trying to explain why he won't do it will never, ever work. It will always come off as evasive and slimy.

(Shrug) We are already in the process of doing this. These are worded as to require a written release. I don't want there to be any misunderstanding that the women involved are free to speak and know as much. I'm ready to put this issue to bed and I'm sure anyone willing to speak will soon come forward to set the record straight.

...and then don't do it, or selectively do it, or whatever.
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Old 20th February 2020, 10:41 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by TruthJonsen View Post
Where does Bloomberg stand on the starting unnecessary wars issue? Some have put him to the right of Trump due to his Iraq war behavior.
Both Trump and Bloomberg supported the Iraq invasion.

The difference is, Bloomberg is honest about it... He says while he doesn't regret supporting the invasion, he said it was a mistake based on faulty intelligence pushed by the Bush administration.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...a-regret-world

On the other hand, Trump just lies... claims he was "always" against it, even though he stated openly on the radio before the invasion took place that he supported it.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/29/polit...ion/index.html

So if you are comparing the 2 of them, I'd say Bloomberg wins that round.

Yeah, you might wish he had been more skeptical over what was presented at the time, but he recognized that ultimately it was a mistake. I'd gladly prefer that over someone who flat out lies.
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Last edited by Segnosaur; 20th February 2020 at 10:43 AM. Reason: Added reference link
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Old 20th February 2020, 10:47 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
So if you are comparing the 2 of them, I'd say Bloomberg wins that round.
Regardless of whatever flaws he has, I'd bet that Bloomberg is substantially a better human being than Trump, on all fronts.
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