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Tags 2020 elections , Michael Bloomberg , presidential candidates

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Old 19th February 2020, 12:50 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The idea Trump could easily beat Bloomberg is foolish. Of course he can't. Bloomberg probably has the best chance of beating Trump and Trump knows it.

For every Democrat that will stay home if Sanders is not on the ballot, two Republicans will vote for Bloomberg.
This.

It is a shame that we must do that calculus this primary season, but I see no way to avoid it.
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Old 19th February 2020, 12:51 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
A part of me almost homes that Sanders wins the Democratic nomination but loses to Trump in the general election, just so all the BernieBros might see that No, going extreme isn't always the best option for winning an election.

Yeah, some of the BernieBros do seem to be a bit... hypocritcal.


Really?

given the rhetoric of the Bernie campaign, i don't think it's at all hypocritical to say "No, that blokes one of the Billionaires we're on about, therefore we're not voting for him"
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Old 19th February 2020, 12:55 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Quote:
Yeah, some of the BernieBros do seem to be a bit... hypocritcal.
Really?

given the rhetoric of the Bernie campaign, i don't think it's at all hypocritical to say "No, that blokes one of the Billionaires we're on about, therefore we're not voting for him"
On the other hand, its hypocritical for them to complain about how "Bloomberg isn't a real democrat" when Sanders himself sits as an independent in the Senate.

Its hypocritical for them to expect any sort of party loyalty (i.e. "Wahh!! People are trying to take away the election from Sanders") when so many are willing to take their ball and go home if Bloomberg wins.
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Old 19th February 2020, 12:56 PM   #284
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Bloomberg is making the "I changed" play - and given is support for female candidates, he has some credibility to do so.
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Old 19th February 2020, 02:16 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
On the other hand, its hypocritical for them to complain about how "Bloomberg isn't a real democrat" when Sanders himself sits as an independent in the Senate.
Have either of these candidates for de facto leader of the Democratic Party ever won an elective office running as a Democrat?

Asking for a Democratic friend.
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Old 19th February 2020, 03:50 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I'm not even a Sanders supporter, and given Bloomberg's record as mayor, there's no chance I'd vote for him. In, fact, I'll amend it to "vote blue no matter who, except Bloomberg".

Want to change this? You can't. That's up to him, and thus far he's done nothing at all to move me from this position, while even more damaging info comes out about him. He needs to explain how he changed in the past 5 years from "It's good to send cops out to beat up protestors, spy on muslims, or have people beaten up and possibly sexually assaulted in their own neighborhoods for being black or brown." to "I will protect the rights of all Americans and immigrants and move the US into the future.", and so far all I've heard is "Oopsie doopsie."
How about “vote blue, not Bloo!”
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Old 19th February 2020, 03:53 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Have either of these candidates for de facto leader of the Democratic Party ever won an elective office running as a Democrat?

Asking for a Democratic friend.
Bernie caucuses with Democrats. Democrats allow him to sit on committees as a Democrat. Bernie votes with Democrats. He advocates for Democratic policies and votes in coordination with the rest of the party. This hangup about him being registered independent is absolutely petty.

This party loyalty smear is just a pathetic attempt to discredit his pointed criticism of the party.
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Old 19th February 2020, 06:08 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post

Its hypocritical for them to expect any sort of party loyalty (i.e. "Wahh!! People are trying to take away the election from Sanders") when so many are willing to take their ball and go home if Bloomberg wins.

It makes perfect sense for those on the left to decide that a candidate is too far right to be tolerable. I just don't see the point of Bloomberg. With the other Democratic hopefuls I at least can say it is worth it to vote for them to protect marginalized groups. With "up against the wall" Bloomberg I can't. He's going to rule the same as Trump: based on the principle that things would work better if he could rule without restrictions. People who think the world is better with them as King are dangerous no matter what their whim is today. Remember that Trump was making a lot of bipartisan and pro-labor noises four years ago

For a moderate democrat to somehow decide Trump is better than Sanders isn't so much hypocrisy as a confession.
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Old 19th February 2020, 06:19 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Have either of these candidates for de facto leader of the Democratic Party ever won an elective office running as a Democrat?
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Bernie caucuses with Democrats. Democrats allow him to sit on committees as a Democrat. Bernie votes with Democrats. He advocates for Democratic policies and votes in coordination with the rest of the party. This hangup about him being registered independent is absolutely petty.
So, no?
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Old 19th February 2020, 06:23 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Bernie caucuses with Democrats. Democrats allow him to sit on committees as a Democrat. Bernie votes with Democrats. He advocates for Democratic policies and votes in coordination with the rest of the party. This hangup about him being registered independent is absolutely petty.

This party loyalty smear is just a pathetic attempt to discredit his pointed criticism of the party.
That's not exactly true. Sanders did not contribute to much Democratic Party fundraising, didn't help other Democrats raise money and yet he came in, in the 2016 election cycle expecting to reap all the benefits of being with the Party.
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Old 19th February 2020, 06:29 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
So, no?
Technically, he switched to the Democratic Party on a regular basis in state races then switched back to Independent after the election. He had a deal with the DNC not to run a Democratic candidate against him. That prevented splitting the vote causing the Democrats to lose the seat.

It was a complicated situation because Vermont doesn't show party affiliation on the ballot.

There are some other details in there over the years but that is basically it.
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Old 19th February 2020, 06:33 PM   #292
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I've never been part of either major party but it seems weird to me that they just let people take over their whole **** like that, having never shown any formal commitment to the organization.

I mean, not my circus, not my monkeys, but damn.
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Old 19th February 2020, 06:48 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I've never been part of either major party but it seems weird to me that they just let people take over their whole **** like that, having never shown any formal commitment to the organization.

I mean, not my circus, not my monkeys, but damn.
Behind every fetish is a **** up. Back in the 1960s there was a primary where a new, charismatic progressive won handily, and then the party elites said "nope, we're going with this establishment guy who technically isn't even running in most of the states but he's done us a lot of solids over the years," only to have him lose historically in the general because it turns out people don't like being told that.

Tangentially on topic: I wish Bloomberg would run as an Independent and split the Trump vote. He's not a damn Democrat no matter how much money he can piss away paying people to say otherwise.
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Old 19th February 2020, 07:18 PM   #294
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Yikes! I turned on the debate a couple minutes ago, right in the middle of Biden and Sanders viciously yelling about Bloomberg and millionaires and billionaires.

It's looks awful that they are out of control with anger.

IIRC, Sanders' bitterness about Clinton was very apparent in the 2016 primary as well. He bitched about the DNC being unfair to him.

Maybe Steyer is better off not being there. Does that really work anymore?

Bloomberg got interrupted twice by Biden, then Todd cut him off to let Bernie get his point in. The other candidates had pretty long turns compared to Bloomberg.


Now Sanders is repeating his same old talking points about all the other countries doing better than us.

Now Biden is at it again, "I'm the only one that did it, I got blah blah blah passed

No Biden, Obama did those things.

Warren's off with a personal constituent example.


Now Biden is screaming again.
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Old 19th February 2020, 07:20 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Tangentially on topic: I wish Bloomberg would run as an Independent and split the Trump vote. He's not a damn Democrat no matter how much money he can piss away paying people to say otherwise.
We need a Political Opportunity Party for centrists who happily switch their affiliations when it helps.
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Old 19th February 2020, 07:23 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's not exactly true. Sanders did not contribute to much Democratic Party fundraising, didn't help other Democrats raise money and yet he came in, in the 2016 election cycle expecting to reap all the benefits of being with the Party.
And I suppose Bloomberg gave a lot of his own money.
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Old 19th February 2020, 07:57 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
And I suppose Bloomberg gave a lot of his own money.
Let's keep the issues in their columns. The discussion was about Sanders switching back and forth between Independent and Democratic Parties, and you can throw in Sanders getting mad that he didn't get the support from the DNC he felt as a Democratic Party candidate he was owed.

Do you see Bloomberg complaining the DNC isn't supporting him?

Back to who has done what. Bloomberg is getting a lot of flak tonight for all the Republicans he supported in the past.

NYT:
Quote:
Bloomberg’s Money Machine: 5 Takeaways on His Political Spending
The presidential candidate has donated billions to progressive causes over the years. That has earned him enormous influence with Democrats, even those who take issue with parts of his record....

The New York Times took an exhaustive look at his spending and found that Mr. Bloomberg had given away or spent more than $10 billion on a combination of charitable and political donations. Much of that has gone to important and largely apolitical ends, in fields like public health, but The Times’s examination revealed in new detail how it helped the candidate build an influence network on a scale rarely if ever seen....

His areas of concern are fairly consistent, focusing on gun control, education reform, the environment, the arts and public health, including smoking cessation and soda taxes. ...

He has been endorsed by dozens of Democratic politicians who have benefited from his spending. A number of them are members of Congress, but most are mayors, from cities like Houston, San Francisco, San Jose and Washington.

So the answer is, yes, Bloomberg has supported Democratic candidates. I'm not sure Sanders ever did contribute (time and support, not cash) to any Democratic candidates.
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:12 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm not sure Sanders ever did contribute (time and support, not cash) to any Democratic candidates.
He campaigned for Clinton after she got the nomination in 2016.
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:18 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


So the answer is, yes, Bloomberg has supported Democratic candidates. I'm not sure Sanders ever did contribute (time and support, not cash) to any Democratic candidates.
Pre-2016 Democrats were just fine keeping Sanders at arms length. The rank and file were hardly looking to be closely associated with him, so mostly he did exactly as they wished. His being an independent was of mutual benefit for him to position himself as an iconoclast and for them to have distance from a socialist ally.

So that is mildly disingenuous.

Anyway, Warren just murdered Bloomberg so we can lock up the thread. His answer about the sexual harassment NDAs was a disaster.
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:25 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
He campaigned for Clinton after she got the nomination in 2016.
You forgot the emoji
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:25 PM   #301
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I just looked at Bloomburg's predictit numbers. "Like a stone" doesn't do the drop over the last hour justice.
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:31 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Pre-2016 Democrats were just fine keeping Sanders at arms length. The rank and file were hardly looking to be closely associated with him, so mostly he did exactly as they wished. His being an independent was of mutual benefit for him to position himself as an iconoclast and for them to have distance from a socialist ally.

So that is mildly disingenuous. ...
I think you are overrating Sanders' benefit to the Democratic Party. It's not like he's had a national following for decades.

I am going by what the DNC said when he was griping about being treated unfairly in the primary.

As for mutual benefit, like I said, the story was if the Democratic Party ran a candidate against Sanders it would have split the ticket.
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:31 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yikes! I turned on the debate a couple minutes ago, right in the middle of Biden and Sanders viciously yelling about Bloomberg and millionaires and billionaires.

It's looks awful that they are out of control with anger.

IIRC, Sanders' bitterness about Clinton was very apparent in the 2016 primary as well. He bitched about the DNC being unfair to him.

Maybe Steyer is better off not being there. Does that really work anymore?

Bloomberg got interrupted twice by Biden, then Todd cut him off to let Bernie get his point in. The other candidates had pretty long turns compared to Bloomberg.


Now Sanders is repeating his same old talking points about all the other countries doing better than us.

Now Biden is at it again, "I'm the only one that did it, I got blah blah blah passed

No Biden, Obama did those things.

Warren's off with a personal constituent example.


Now Biden is screaming again.
So, did you completely miss the race and sex debacles for Bloomberg?
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:34 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
I just looked at Bloomburg's predictit numbers. "Like a stone" doesn't do the drop over the last hour justice.
Down 4 cents is hardly dropping like a stone.

https://www.predictit.org/markets/de...ial-nomination
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:39 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
So, did you completely miss the race and sex debacles for Bloomberg?
Nope, didn't miss them at all.

It has zero to do with the post you quoted. That post was when I turned the debate on and the yelling was obnoxious.

We went through this crap in 2016. Just because I'm skeptical of the Democratic Socialists I get a lot of flak here.

I supported Clinton then and I stand by that.

This time around I'm mostly crossing candidates off my list rather than being behind one. Though I do have a TOM 2020 sign in my yard.
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:45 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I think you are overrating Sanders' benefit to the Democratic Party. It's not like he's had a national following for decades.

I am going by what the DNC said when he was griping about being treated unfairly in the primary.

As for mutual benefit, like I said, the story was if the Democratic Party ran a candidate against Sanders it would have split the ticket.
My whole point is that if anything, pre-2016 Sanders' direct help would have not been welcome, so not really overstating.

He was a vote in the Senate. A Democrat in all but name. They would be silly to run against someone so they could get a senator that would vote basically the same but maybe dress better.

I think the 2016 gripes are overblown. Still, if the DNC's ability to apply their own rules is affected by one's standing in the party, then the DNC is just proving they aren't following their rules.
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:47 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Down 4 cents is hardly dropping like a stone.

https://www.predictit.org/markets/de...ial-nomination
Look at the 24 hour chart. I'm not sure the difference in how they are updated.
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:48 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Down 4 cents is hardly dropping like a stone.

https://www.predictit.org/markets/de...ial-nomination
Now click on the 24 hour trend line. Isolate for Bloomberg.

Minus four cents was the last trade. He's lost roughly half his value since the debate began.
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:49 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Nope, didn't miss them at all.

It has zero to do with the post you quoted. That post was when I turned the debate on and the yelling was obnoxious.

We went through this crap in 2016. Just because I'm skeptical of the Democratic Socialists I get a lot of flak here.

I supported Clinton then and I stand by that.

This time around I'm mostly crossing candidates off my list rather than being behind one. Though I do have a TOM 2020 sign in my yard.
Bloomberg flopped hard, and this thread is about Bloomberg, but all you are talking about from the debate is why you dislike the other candidates?
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:50 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You forgot the emoji
I'm not understanding your point. I gave an example of the exact thing about which you were inquiring.
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:58 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Bloomberg flopped hard, and this thread is about Bloomberg, but all you are talking about from the debate is why you dislike the other candidates?
His closing statement was the best (minus the part about not asking for money)
Pointing out that the POTUS needs to be a capable and credentialed manager, while the rest of the candidates were giving stump speeches appealing to emotion.
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Old 19th February 2020, 09:00 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
My whole point is that if anything, pre-2016 Sanders' direct help would have not been welcome, so not really overstating.

He was a vote in the Senate. A Democrat in all but name. They would be silly to run against someone so they could get a senator that would vote basically the same but maybe dress better.

I think the 2016 gripes are overblown. Still, if the DNC's ability to apply their own rules is affected by one's standing in the party, then the DNC is just proving they aren't following their rules.
He wasn't always a Senator. He was a Rep in the House for a while.

I really don't understand your point.
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Old 19th February 2020, 09:00 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
His closing statement was the best (minus the part about not asking for money)
Pointing out that the POTUS needs to be a capable and credentialed manager, while the rest of the candidates were giving stump speeches appealing to emotion.
I thought that was terrible. I don't think left, right, or center want a manager for president.
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Old 19th February 2020, 09:02 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I'm not understanding your point. I gave an example of the exact thing about which you were inquiring.
Sanders only reluctantly campaigned for Clinton. It took him a while to get over his sour grapes.
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Old 19th February 2020, 09:04 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Bloomberg flopped hard, and this thread is about Bloomberg, but all you are talking about from the debate is why you dislike the other candidates?
The threads are (temporarily) conflated because Bloomberg was in the debate tonight.

Sorry. Tomorrow the discussions will be separate again.
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Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 19th February 2020 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 19th February 2020, 09:08 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
I thought that was terrible. I don't think left, right, or center want a manager for president.
I think that is exactly what the center wants.
Ideology is useless without the ability to get anything accomplished.
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Old 19th February 2020, 09:10 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Now click on the 24 hour trend line. Isolate for Bloomberg.

Minus four cents was the last trade. He's lost roughly half his value since the debate began.
The sad thing is that there is roughly a 100% chance that Bloomberg has socks pumping some money into this and it still tanked.
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Old 19th February 2020, 09:14 PM   #318
I Am The Scum
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Sanders only reluctantly campaigned for Clinton. It took him a while to get over his sour grapes.
You're moving the goalposts.
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Old 19th February 2020, 09:18 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I think that is exactly what the center wants.
Ideology is useless without the ability to get anything accomplished.
Who cares how much you can get done if your ideas are garbage?

If Bloomberg wants to put his wealth in a blind charitable trust and sign on to be chief of staff for whoever wins, then his point makes more sense. A president isn't the manager. He's the guy that hires managers.
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Old 19th February 2020, 09:24 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
You're moving the goalposts.
We are following two different strands of reality here.

We were discussing Bernie's contributions to the Democrats and you said he campaigned for Clinton. I thought you were being sarcastic because IMO, he only put in a half-assed effort.
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