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Tags 2020 elections , Democratic primaries , iowa caucus , political predictions , political speculation , presidential candidates

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Old 4th February 2020, 10:12 PM   #161
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(Also, we don't know that she hasn't been paying attention... to issues & policies.)
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Old 4th February 2020, 10:37 PM   #162
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Maybe this FUBAR will make some counties work harder to make sure that the actual elections run smoothly.
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Old 4th February 2020, 10:45 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I have no idea. Having been involved in caucus held in my state, I know that isn't how they worked in Washington. The caucuses elected delegates to attend the state convention and the delegates at the State convention decided the allotment of delegates to the National convention. Horse trading can and does take place. I don't like the primary system. I'd rather return to caucuses in all the states.
Wow. I think the primaries serve a purpose (to see if the candidates can actually get people to vote for them), but I am 100% in agreement that the primary process should inform the convention, but not rule it. Still, never going to happen.

But like D4m10n, I am curious how this reconciles with your other beliefs on the electoral college and the Senate.
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Old 5th February 2020, 05:12 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I don't know by but my wife is currently applying for a job as a one. Seems to be what software companies call client managers.
Just another pointless bit of euphemism, I guess.
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Old 5th February 2020, 05:14 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Democrats face-plant on impeachment, then immediately pivot to a face-plant on counting their own caucus votes due to "coding problems". LOL.
Yeah when the Jury is bought and paid for, I guess you could say that the prosecution fell flat on their face.
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Old 5th February 2020, 05:17 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It is?!?!?!

Holy **** !!!

Now I totally hate it and/or love it, depending on how you need me to react, in order to satisfy whatever need prompted you to post this inanity.

I hope this helps. Have a nice day!
Translation: "****, got caught. Try to blame it on the guy who caught me!"
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Old 5th February 2020, 07:17 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I think it's pretty apparent in my last point post. But I'll repeat it: Iowa Republicans also use the caucus. Why you think there is more than just that, I have no idea.
It seemed important enough for you to post it. What was the importance?
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Old 5th February 2020, 07:20 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Translation: "****, got caught. Try to blame it on the guy who caught me!"
Caught? What do you imagine is going on here?
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Old 5th February 2020, 07:24 AM   #169
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We can perch upon our moral and political mountains and argue from them all day, but nothing will change the fact that a system, regardless of its qualities, where a tipping point of people aren't happy with how the decision is reached is only slightly better at best then a system where a tipping point of people aren't happy with the decision being reached.

A smoke and mirrors act that gets the "right" answer isn't ideal.
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Old 5th February 2020, 07:39 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We can perch upon our moral and political mountains and argue from them all day, but nothing will change the fact that a system, regardless of its qualities, where a tipping point of people aren't happy with how the decision is reached is only slightly better at best then a system where a tipping point of people aren't happy with the decision being reached.

A smoke and mirrors act that gets the "right" answer isn't ideal.
Call it the Martin Gardner in me, but there is no single "best" way to determine the winner in a multi-candidate runnoff.

You define the terms ahead of time and then live with the results. That's what has been done.

The only actual issue in this case is that the results have not been reported fast enough to satisfy the 24 cable news channels. It's true, the results have not been reported in a timely fashion. That's only as much of a problem as you make it.
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Old 5th February 2020, 08:02 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Caught? What do you imagine is going on here?
Oh, I think it's quite evident.
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Old 5th February 2020, 08:39 AM   #172
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New Hampshire state law requires that its primary must be the first in the nation.

I've been AWOL.

I'm just jumping into this thread now, so if this has been discussed, I'm sorry.

Iowa state law requires that the caucuses take place at least eight days before any other nominating contest.

New Hampshire state law requires that its primary must be the first in the nation.


What if Ohio were to pass a law requiring that its primary must be the first in the nation.
Or North Carolina?
Or Texas?


From my basic knowledge of things, can't Ohio pass a law requiring it to be first and then tell NH to take its "we're first" law and to cram it because NH laws can't influence how Ohio works, right?


It might be tradition, but tradition is peer pressure exuded on you by dead people.
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:14 AM   #173
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How can a state pass a law requiring other states to do something?
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:16 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, I think it's quite evident.
This kind of thing is exactly what leads to a three-page slapfight about who said what and what they meant and how much accurate language matters. Why not just say what you mean in plain language, and avoid all that.
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:22 AM   #175
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//misread something and my reply made no sense//
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:25 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How can a state pass a law requiring other states to do something?
The law requires that if some other state moves up their primary date, the government of New Hampshire is required to move theirs up to be earlier. It doesn't prescribe actions for other states. It prescribes responses to actions for the state of New Hampshire.
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:46 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
(Also, we don't know that she hasn't been paying attention... to issues & policies.)
Equal rights for LGBT folks isn't an issue?

Overturning Obergefell v. Hodges isn't a policy?
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:46 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The law requires that if some other state moves up their primary date, the government of New Hampshire is required to move theirs up to be earlier. It doesn't prescribe actions for other states. It prescribes responses to actions for the state of New Hampshire.
So, a pissing match can ensue?
If Indiana moves their primary to the last Thursday in January...then NH must move theirs?
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:48 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
So, a pissing match can ensue?
If Indiana moves their primary to the last Thursday in January...then NH must move theirs?
No eventually one state would just hit the brick wall that there is only so far back you can move something before you reverse lap yourself and wind up in the previous election cycle at which point the whole stupid thing would collapse.
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Old 5th February 2020, 09:56 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
I've been AWOL.

I'm just jumping into this thread now, so if this has been discussed, I'm sorry.

Iowa state law requires that the caucuses take place at least eight days before any other nominating contest.

New Hampshire state law requires that its primary must be the first in the nation.


What if Ohio were to pass a law requiring that its primary must be the first in the nation.
Or North Carolina?
Or Texas?


From my basic knowledge of things, can't Ohio pass a law requiring it to be first and then tell NH to take its "we're first" law and to cram it because NH laws can't influence how Ohio works, right?


It might be tradition, but tradition is peer pressure exuded on you by dead people.
Answered already, but clarifying.

Correct that a law in NH can't prevent Indiana from doing something.

It compels the Office of the Secretary of State (or whoever governs elections in NH) to be first.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:00 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Answered already, but clarifying.

Correct that a law in NH can't prevent Indiana from doing something.

It compels the Office of the Secretary of State (or whoever governs elections in NH) to be first.
Well yeah but you don't have to follow that too far to see the inherent absurdity.

If three men who work at an office all declare rules for themselves that they have to be the first person to walk through the front door in the morning... it doesn't take a genius to see how that isn't going to work even if none of the 3 try to tell the other 2 what they have to do.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:11 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
I've been AWOL.

I'm just jumping into this thread now, so if this has been discussed, I'm sorry.

Iowa state law requires that the caucuses take place at least eight days before any other nominating contest.

New Hampshire state law requires that its primary must be the first in the nation.


What if Ohio were to pass a law requiring that its primary must be the first in the nation.
Or North Carolina?
Or Texas?


From my basic knowledge of things, can't Ohio pass a law requiring it to be first and then tell NH to take its "we're first" law and to cram it because NH laws can't influence how Ohio works, right?


It might be tradition, but tradition is peer pressure exuded on you by dead people.
I think some states tried that a few cycles ago but the party stepped in and refused to accept their delegates. May have been an earlier post in this thread explaining it better.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:16 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
So, a pissing match can ensue?
Yes.

Quote:
If Indiana moves their primary to the last Thursday in January...then NH must move theirs?
As I understand it, yes.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:35 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No eventually one state would just hit the brick wall that there is only so far back you can move something before you reverse lap yourself and wind up in the previous election cycle at which point the whole stupid thing would collapse.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well yeah but you don't have to follow that too far to see the inherent absurdity.

If three men who work at an office all declare rules for themselves that they have to be the first person to walk through the front door in the morning... it doesn't take a genius to see how that isn't going to work even if none of the 3 try to tell the other 2 what they have to do.
This is kinda where I was going.

Is there a chance that "we" might push have some primaries in December? (Which would be dumb and self-defeating)
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:40 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
This is kinda where I was going.

Is there a chance that "we" might push have some primaries in December? (Which would be dumb and self-defeating)
At this point I'm dead serious when I say in a couple of decades at most the election/campaign cycle will literally have extended to the point that it's always happening, and in the foreground of politics not the background.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:41 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Wow. I think the primaries serve a purpose (to see if the candidates can actually get people to vote for them), but I am 100% in agreement that the primary process should inform the convention, but not rule it. Still, never going to happen.

But like D4m10n, I am curious how this reconciles with your other beliefs on the electoral college and the Senate.
These are political parties not government institutions. Most political parties do not choose their candidates by election. I have no problem with that part of the process not being democratic. And in my mind, primaries don't necessarily produce the best candidates.
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Old 5th February 2020, 10:56 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
These are political parties not government institutions. Most political parties do not choose their candidates by election. I have no problem with that part of the process not being democratic. And in my mind, primaries don't necessarily produce the best candidates.
I have concerns with "privatized" control of political participation. Any institution the state gives control in this arena over to needs to be held to the same standard we would demand if the government itself were overseeing the process.

My understanding is they do nominate by election.

How delegates that vote are determined and in which ways they can do so are highly controlled, however.

In a sense, the delegate voting is a lot like the electoral college. At the direction of the candidate they are pledged to, they can vote another way.
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Old 5th February 2020, 11:06 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
This is kinda where I was going.

Is there a chance that "we" might push have some primaries in December? (Which would be dumb and self-defeating)
Yes. There is literally, technically a chance that could happen.

But there's not much appetite for doing it, since things are already about as stretched as people care to stretch them.

You're asking these questions. What's the nature of your concern?
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Old 5th February 2020, 11:08 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I have concerns with "privatized" control of political participation. Any institution the state gives control in this arena over to needs to be held to the same standard we would demand if the government itself were overseeing the process.

My understanding is they do nominate by election.

How delegates that vote are determined and in which ways they can do so are highly controlled, however.

In a sense, the delegate voting is a lot like the electoral college. At the direction of the candidate they are pledged to, they can vote another way.
There are dozens of political parties. But how each chooses their candidates varies by party and state. Most, you have to belong to the party and must attend meetings and perhaps statewide conventions. And the process has changed dramatically and continues to change so perhaps I've overstated how undemocratic it is today.

I'm just not a fan of the primary process today. It's more about money and advertising then it is about deciding what is best for the country and who the best candidate is.
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Old 5th February 2020, 11:27 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm just not a fan of the primary process today. It's more about money and advertising then it is about deciding what is best for the country and who the best candidate is.
"The Democratic Primary of California. Brought to you by Ford. And by Mr. Clean."
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Old 5th February 2020, 11:27 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes. There is literally, technically a chance that could happen.

But there's not much appetite for doing it, since things are already about as stretched as people care to stretch them.

You're asking these questions. What's the nature of your concern?
Just pure curiosity around the idea of "We have a law that makes us first!" and how all that works.

And I was also thinking about reductio ad absurdum with the pissing matches that could ensue if Michigan tries to trump NH.


And thanks for explaining how Ohio can schedule itself before NH, but then NH will be forced to move their primary.
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Old 5th February 2020, 11:37 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I think some states tried that a few cycles ago but the party stepped in and refused to accept their delegates. May have been an earlier post in this thread explaining it better.
Yes, in 2008, both Florida and Michigan tried to jump to the front of the line. The DNC responded by initially refusing to seat the delegates. They later reinstated them but cut their votes in half.
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Old 5th February 2020, 01:08 PM   #193
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The results page is now at 75%.
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Old 5th February 2020, 01:12 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There are dozens of political parties. But how each chooses their candidates varies by party and state. Most, you have to belong to the party and must attend meetings and perhaps statewide conventions. And the process has changed dramatically and continues to change so perhaps I've overstated how undemocratic it is today.

I'm just not a fan of the primary process today. It's more about money and advertising then it is about deciding what is best for the country and who the best candidate is.
Basically, you are in favor of limiting the franchise in choosing a party candidate.
So do you advocate liminting the franchsie in the general election?
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Old 5th February 2020, 01:12 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Yes, in 2008, both Florida and Michigan tried to jump to the front of the line. The DNC responded by initially refusing to seat the delegates. They later reinstated them but cut their votes in half.
At least Florida and the Great State of Michigan have a lot of people. It makes sense to throw them a frickin bone. But yeah, I think soon the elections will be held similarly to how Olympic bids are made. You will have to bid two or three cycles down the line.
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Old 5th February 2020, 01:14 PM   #196
dudalb
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I would say have all the primaries on one day, but I don't see that happening.
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Old 5th February 2020, 01:23 PM   #197
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I would say have all the primaries on one day, but I don't see that happening.
When you have a primary with a more than 2 or 3 candidates, and all votes were held on the same day, it would be very rare for one person to obtain a majority (or even a strong plurality). Thus, you might end up with various back-room deals in order for the various candidates to consolidate support.

You would need some sort of tie-breaking mechanism (perhaps a series of run-off votes, and/or a ranked ballot). But since candidates compete for delegates at a state level, any sort of run-off or ranked ballot will be complex.
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Old 5th February 2020, 01:31 PM   #198
ahhell
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I would say have all the primaries on one day, but I don't see that happening.
If we are going to keep primaries, I think that makes the most sense. I'd also have it much closer to the general. We really need to shorten this process man.
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Old 5th February 2020, 01:50 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There are dozens of political parties. But how each chooses their candidates varies by party and state. Most, you have to belong to the party and must attend meetings and perhaps statewide conventions. And the process has changed dramatically and continues to change so perhaps I've overstated how undemocratic it is today.

I'm just not a fan of the primary process today. It's more about money and advertising then it is about deciding what is best for the country and who the best candidate is.
Getting on the ballot has to be an open process. Fill out form XCYA164b and pay a nominal fee or gather x signatures.

Getting that party's winning vote probably requires going to meetings and knowing them (small parties, that is). If you actually want to attain office. You appear on the ballot as a D or R and give 12-14 hours of life a day to meeting a few key players and amassing a war chest to buy ads.

Needing to be a declared party member does have impact where primaries are closed.
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Old 5th February 2020, 02:07 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Maybe this FUBAR will make some counties work harder to make sure that the actual elections run smoothly.
It'd be interesting to see if there were actually any counties that hit the trifecta of -
- needs to improve,
- is able to improve, and
- wasn't motivated to improve but is motivated now because of this.
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