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Tags 2020 elections , Bernie Sanders , presidential candidates

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Old 6th February 2020, 01:07 PM   #81
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I love technocrats. They're evidence-based. Populists arent, as far as I can tell. This is a very complicated world with many moving parts. Simple solutions don't exist. But people who say so don't seem to get anywhere.
Bernie doesn't seem a technocrat though, he is not quite CP in vitriol or someone like AOC but is enough so, Technocrat he is not.
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Old 6th February 2020, 01:14 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Bernie doesn't seem a technocrat though, he is not quite CP in vitriol or someone like AOC but is enough so, Technocrat he is not.
That was my point. Warren is much more so. But as someone just noted in another thread, reasonableness does not seem to be popular with voters.
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Old 6th February 2020, 01:35 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
THIS.
Bernie problems is he has adapted a "No Enemies To The Left" policy, and he has attracted some of the real wacjobs, like the guy at one of this rallies waving a 'Marx was Right" sign.
Really? One guy at a rally with a "Marx was right" sign somehow undermines Bernie's legitimacy as a candidate? Wow!

You are also expressing a remarkably broad view of wackjobs. Frankly I think Marx had several ideas valuable to think about, parts of which I even favor, even if I ultimately reject most of Marxism as a whole. I think Marxism is impractical, probably impossible, given human nature. I think the guy with the sign was wrong. So would be a guy with a sign "Privatize social security." But neither are truly wack jobs.

Just curious: have you read Marx's writing?
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Old 6th February 2020, 01:51 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Really? One guy at a rally with a "Marx was right" sign somehow undermines Bernie's legitimacy as a candidate? Wow!

You are also expressing a remarkably broad view of wackjobs. Frankly I think Marx had several ideas valuable to think about, parts of which I even favor, even if I ultimately reject most of Marxism as a whole. I think Marxism is impractical, probably impossible, given human nature. I think the guy with the sign was wrong. So would be a guy with a sign "Privatize social security." But neither are truly wack jobs.

Just curious: have you read Marx's writing?


Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You find nothing worng with supporters of a system that has killed Tens of Millions of people world wide? I would not like to know such people.
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Do you know any religious people?
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Old 6th February 2020, 02:05 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Mitch McConnell is calling Biden a socialist on the Sunday morning talk shows already. Buttigieg was right about that. The Republicans will scream "socialist" no matter who they put up. The Dems have to stop being afraid of how the Republicans are going to smear them and figure out how to sell these already popular ideas to the American people.
They'll call anyone that's not skirting the line of fascism an "America hating radical, liberal, socialist, communist'. Problem is a lot of older Democratic voters dont appreciate the distinction and may buy into the "Bernie bad cuz socialism" propaganda until properly educated

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
What? He's literally a socialist, or at least as close to one as U.S. politicians get.
He may identify as a socialist but he's not advocating for pure socialism as the right would have us believe. Think there would be SOME merit to him making the distinction clear to some miseducated moderates.
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Old 6th February 2020, 06:32 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I love technocrats. They're evidence-based. Populists arent, as far as I can tell. This is a very complicated world with many moving parts. Simple solutions don't exist. But people who say so don't seem to get anywhere.
I also think populism of any stamp runs into Mob Rule.
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Old 6th February 2020, 07:06 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The depressing thing is, even if Bernie wins, he won't really have a mandate to make the kinds of radical changes his radicalism promises. For me, I'd be content with such a no-op president. But only if most Americans also see and understand this.

What will probably end up happening is people will expect Bernie to push his brand of progressivism on a sharply divided nation, and then get unreasonably angry when that works about as well as you'd expect.
That argument is kind of like the ‘Good thing that Prez Trump has not been able to do anything. This guy is way smarter than me but he claims to listen to Fox News and does inform on them to his liberal audience. There are a lot of African Americans with money that wouldn’t vote for Bernie but all those other people of all backgrounds with no money to lose. **** he is going to win isn’t he. Plus he is honest and credible and seems to be trustworthy
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Old 6th February 2020, 07:14 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Because 'starting from the left' is a riskier position to campaign from.

I've pointed to references to studies before that showed that, on average, candidates on the 'extremes' (of either left or right wing) have a harder time winning elections. (Not that they ALWAYS lose, just that they statistically win less.)

If you start with fewer seats in congress, you have less influence to get anything one.
I don't see any real extreme left in any of the candidates, with some just a bit lefter than others. In any case, whoever remains after the primary is the one who is left.
And that is the one I will vote for. Or a fence post, or any tangible object other than Trump.
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Old 6th February 2020, 07:22 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The leftie play book is to yell into the wind their never ending out rage, and then offer no solution, just outrage. So both suck.
Buzz words right out of the Trumpanista / Faux News play book.

For the last 80 years or so, democratic administrations have dragged the economy back to normal after republicans finish screwing it up.
And then getting blamed for the screw up, and then the deplorables buying it, and voting in the next round of screwing up.
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Old 7th February 2020, 05:52 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Really? One guy at a rally with a "Marx was right" sign somehow undermines Bernie's legitimacy as a candidate? Wow!

You are also expressing a remarkably broad view of wackjobs. Frankly I think Marx had several ideas valuable to think about, parts of which I even favor, even if I ultimately reject most of Marxism as a whole. I think Marxism is impractical, probably impossible, given human nature. I think the guy with the sign was wrong. So would be a guy with a sign "Privatize social security." But neither are truly wack jobs.

Just curious: have you read Marx's writing?
He's said some questionable things in the past like praising Venezuela as being one of the countries with better income equality. Given that we have Trump spouting expletives on live television I doubt people are as taken aback by the stuff these days... especially after being numbed by it, and having figures like Ocasio Cortez emulating that reality TV style hyper rhetoric.

Only thing that stands out to me are the pie in the sky promises for free college and healthcare. Warren's healthcare proposals got shafted when she wouldn't go into the method of paying the anticipated costs of implementing her plans,. Bernie keeps promising tons of free stuff thinking that taxing the wealthiest 1 percent is going to cut the deal. Hate to say, but "free" is probably the most expensive promise you can make. Taxes have to increase for everyone. Berni has mentioned this occasionally and tried to justify it, but the actual magnitude likely won't sit the best with most voters.

Not withstanding, he and Warren want to push structural changes to the economy at a time where a decent chunk of the population feels relatively comfortable with their financial and economic standing. Healthcare is still a crap shoot though.
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Old 7th February 2020, 07:43 AM   #91
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An adequate discussion will require more time than I have at the moment. But I will point out that California offered free higher education for many decades, including at the University of California, one of the top universities in the world. Many countries still offer free or nearly so college education. And of course many countries offer universal health care.

These are quite possible - not pie in the sky. They are achieved in countries much poorer than the USA. The real question is how we choose to spend the resources we have.
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Old 7th February 2020, 08:37 AM   #92
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Perhaps the most important quote of all time:

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”

-- Maggie
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Old 7th February 2020, 08:59 AM   #93
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The problem with Tax-cut and Spend Republicanism is that you rather quickly run out of poor people's money.
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Old 7th February 2020, 10:30 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I also think populism of any stamp runs into Mob Rule.
Best prevention to populist rule is adopting policies that prevent the general population from falling to desperate straits.

Populism is a direct response to a system that is negligent to the needs of the average person in order to further enrich the wealthy elite.
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Old 7th February 2020, 10:37 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Best prevention to populist rule is adopting policies that prevent the general population from falling to desperate straits.

Populism is a direct response to a system that is negligent to the needs of the average person in order to further enrich the wealthy elite.
Indeed. If I were starving and sick and unable to get food or healthcare I sure as hell wouldn't vote for the guys who want to give millionaires tax breaks on owning a third racehorse. I'd vote for Savonarola Tse-Tung and let him burn the country down.
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Old 7th February 2020, 11:22 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Perhaps the most important quote of all time:

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”

-- Maggie
And the problem with that particular quote is that it ignores the huge increase in the U.S. deficit under Trump (now over $1 trillion I believe).

(And this is after the Deficit started coming down under Obama, post-recession.)

So I guess we can rewrite the quote: "The problem with Trumpism/Republicianism is that eventually you run out of other people's money".
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Old 7th February 2020, 07:19 PM   #97
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another 27 bucks for Bernie for his great debate. I want to also give a shout out for Speaker Nancy Pelosi for her great speech regarding ripping on Trump. I guess that's why she gets paid the big bucks. Go Bernie! You know you could plant some money on Bernie's smootch instead of ripping on him.
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Old 7th February 2020, 07:23 PM   #98
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The problem with most anti-Democratic Socialism fear mongers is that they generally know jack**** about it and think it's Communism.
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Old 7th February 2020, 08:09 PM   #99
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Yeah with the socialists if you haven't got the 2 bucks for the paper they are probably still going to give you one. With the communists they are going to hold out for the 2 bucks. I am serious about Pelosi. I am now a huge fan and probably am going to buy every one of her books that I can't get from the library. She is genius
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Old 7th February 2020, 09:33 PM   #100
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The problem with that "conventional wisdom" from way back in the OP is not that it can sometimes be wrong. It's that it keeps being consistently wrong over & over again. We've seen Biden before. He's Hillary II, which makes him Kerry III, which makes him Algore IV. He's precisely how to lose. The Democrats who've won lately ran campaigns talking about "change" and solving problems and bringing on a brighter future. So did Trump.
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Old 7th February 2020, 09:39 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
An adequate discussion will require more time than I have at the moment. But I will point out that California offered free higher education for many decades, including at the University of California, one of the top universities in the world. Many countries still offer free or nearly so college education. And of course many countries offer universal health care.

These are quite possible - not pie in the sky. They are achieved in countries much poorer than the USA. The real question is how we choose to spend the resources we have.
I'm not completely against the idea, but if people are going to support it, they'll have to realize that it's going to be a tax increase on everyone, not just the rich. Nothing is magically "free"; you will pay for it in one form or another, be it federal income taxes, sales tax, whatever. Bernie and co can claim they can pay for the programs by taxing the wealthy... that's not exactly the way it'll work out. Long as you know that, I can't really fault you for supporting it. It's people that automatically think "free" means they won't be paying at all for it, whom I criticize more.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The problem with most anti-Democratic Socialism fear mongers is that they generally know jack**** about it and think it's Communism.
That's because they're both umbrella terms and generally share broad ideological similarities with respect to capitalism. Lots of "anti-socialism" arguments are against government monopoly, much in the same twist that the other side of that coin is an argument against wealth consolidation.

In other words, one-line zingers don't deal with nuances in political ideology. Yet we spend a lot of time treating politics like it boils down to that.
Then again, wealth and government consolidation of power are one and the same if you're dealing with a dictatorship or one-party rule.
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Old 8th February 2020, 12:44 AM   #102
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It's time for the anti-Trump folks to start talking up the wonders of Moscow as a honeymoon destination, because believe it or not, Sanders is really, really likely to be the nominee.

Think about the other candidates:

Biden: Always been a terrible campaigner and his fourth-place finish in Iowa is likely to be repeated in New Hampshire.

Warren: Got completely squeezed out of the coverage in Iowa, even though she finished ahead of predictions. At least she isn't getting the "staff shakeup" stories like Biden. She can't afford to go 0-4 in Iowa, NH, NV and SC, and that is exactly what she is facing. Seriously, her best bet is to combine forces with Bernie and hope for the VP slot.

Buttigieg: No sign of a pulse among South Carolina blacks.

Steyer: Someone who has polled quite well in South Carolina, with multiple results in the 10-20% range.

Bloomberg: Obviously the X factor in the primaries this year. He has the money to compete, and he may be looming for all the candidates struggling to get to Super Tuesday, because he has been carpet-bombing the airwaves in those and later primary states. One thing's for sure; he will miss out on the "earned media" for New Hampshire's primary.

Klobuchar: She gets an "outperformed expectations in Iowa medal,"based on her "I'm another midwesterner" schtick, but it's not going to play in NH, SC or Nevada.
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Old 8th February 2020, 05:25 AM   #103
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Bloomer's real advantage isn't his money for ads. It's that the DNC has already shown their willingness to change the rules for him.
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Old 8th February 2020, 05:26 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
Nothing is magically "free"; you will pay for it in one form or another, be it federal income taxes, sales tax, whatever. Bernie and co can claim they can pay for the programs by taxing the wealthy... that's not exactly the way it'll work out.
That's why he/they do(es)n't say that.
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Old 8th February 2020, 09:57 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It's time for the anti-Trump folks to start talking up the wonders of Moscow as a honeymoon destination, because believe it or not, Sanders is really, really likely to be the nominee.

Think about the other candidates:

Biden: Always been a terrible campaigner and his fourth-place finish in Iowa is likely to be repeated in New Hampshire.

Warren: Got completely squeezed out of the coverage in Iowa, even though she finished ahead of predictions. At least she isn't getting the "staff shakeup" stories like Biden. She can't afford to go 0-4 in Iowa, NH, NV and SC, and that is exactly what she is facing. Seriously, her best bet is to combine forces with Bernie and hope for the VP slot.

Buttigieg: No sign of a pulse among South Carolina blacks.

Steyer: Someone who has polled quite well in South Carolina, with multiple results in the 10-20% range.

Bloomberg: Obviously the X factor in the primaries this year. He has the money to compete, and he may be looming for all the candidates struggling to get to Super Tuesday, because he has been carpet-bombing the airwaves in those and later primary states. One thing's for sure; he will miss out on the "earned media" for New Hampshire's primary.

Klobuchar: She gets an "outperformed expectations in Iowa medal,"based on her "I'm another midwesterner" schtick, but it's not going to play in NH, SC or Nevada.
The proper term is “African American” which you know agendaiac this is Burn channel.

I will say was it so bad back in the horse and buggy days when the 100 richest families in America didn’t own 80% of the gdp?
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Old 8th February 2020, 10:02 AM   #106
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There is no reason whatsoever to assume that any D-nominee won't be labeled as a Socialist in the upcoming election.
Might as well pick one.
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Old 8th February 2020, 10:12 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
There is no reason whatsoever to assume that any D-nominee won't be labeled as a Socialist in the upcoming election.
If we can safely assume the socialist label will stick equally well to any of these candidates in the minds of undecided voters, then you have a good point.

https://twitter.com/Joe_Gierut/statu...50532960948224
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Old 8th February 2020, 01:53 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
Buzz words right out of the Trumpanista / Faux News play book.

For the last 80 years or so, democratic administrations have dragged the economy back to normal after republicans finish screwing it up.
And then getting blamed for the screw up, and then the deplorables buying it, and voting in the next round of screwing up.
democrat, as opposed to eternally outraged leftie, not the same animal
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Old 8th February 2020, 03:39 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
That's why he/they do(es)n't say that.
It's on his campaign page stating that funds from wealth taxation will be used to fund at minimum, some of the social programs he wants to implement. And a substantial component of his campaign motto is to decrease the income gaps.

When you review his other policy goals of getting the Green New Deal, and social security expansion, among others, it's a dead ringer that if he got every one of his major policy goals in place the costs won't be offset enough, to shield middle class from those.

Quote:
The revenue raised under this plan would be used to fund Bernie’s affordable housing plan, universal childcare and would help fund Medicare for All
Several of his proposed policies are significant structural changes to the economy and infrastructure that go beyond in scope and even moreso in potential cost ramifications, which most of the democratic field outside of him and Warren doesn't push
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Old 8th February 2020, 06:21 PM   #110
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I also want to point out that all parties candidates are going to raise taxes
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Old 8th February 2020, 06:42 PM   #111
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Musings from this foreigner...

Every Democatic candidate since at least JFK has been called a socialist and/or a communist by the Republicans, so I'm not sure the public will be moved by that. "He is a socialist, and this time we mean it!"

Now, anyone who is already a Democrat is going to vote for the Democratic candidate no matter what. The challenge is, as it often is in the US with only two parties of about equal size, is to mobilize voters who otherwise wouldn't vote. That's how Obama won. And that's how Trump won.

I'm not really that big a fan fan of Bernie Sanders. I'm from where the word socialist actually means something, and I'm not one. And, as someone who in reality isn't from either of the two American parties, I can't see him being a very effective president.

But among the current contenders for the Democratic nomination, I can't see anyone who could mobilize voters who wouldn't normally vote.

That why I think that to defeat Trump, the best bet would probably be Bernie Sanders - and then legislative powers could return to where they belong: The legislative branch.
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Old 8th February 2020, 06:54 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Musings from this foreigner...

Every Democatic candidate since at least JFK has been called a socialist and/or a communist by the Republicans, so I'm not sure the public will be moved by that. "He is a socialist, and this time we mean it!"

Now, anyone who is already a Democrat is going to vote for the Democratic candidate no matter what. The challenge is, as it often is in the US with only two parties of about equal size, is to mobilize voters who otherwise wouldn't vote. That's how Obama won. And that's how Trump won.

I'm not really that big a fan fan of Bernie Sanders. I'm from where the word socialist actually means something, and I'm not one. And, as someone who in reality isn't from either of the two American parties, I can't see him being a very effective president.

But among the current contenders for the Democratic nomination, I can't see anyone who could mobilize voters who wouldn't normally vote.

That why I think that to defeat Trump, the best bet would probably be Bernie Sanders - and then legislative powers could return to where they belong: The legislative branch.
Yang won the debate but I am still voting for Bernie. It seemed that they were bring graded by CNN on others on how well they can bicker with other democrats. That being said, I will say that one of the few people I know who have chose a candidate told me that they are voting for Yang. An african american with lots of financial sense and money who is way smarter than me; a bluecollar old white guy. I really don't see him voting for Bernie

Bernie did say that he would work with the legislature to get bills passed
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Old 10th February 2020, 06:02 AM   #113
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How one Clinton liberal learned to love the Bern. Spoiler alert: her uninsured, Bernie-bro boyfriend died self-medicating for untreated mental illness.

https://www.elle.com/life-love/a3055...icare-for-all/

Often the criticism is made of Bernie supporters that they are too enthusiastic, too severe in their support. That they are contemptuous of those that oppose his policies, like Medicare for all.

A return to pre-Trump status-quo is accepting wide-scale suffering as a political expediency. Anything short of universal coverage is accepting that large swaths of people will die preventable deaths because they lack the ability to pay for treatment.

A vote for anything but Medicare for all is a vote for preventable death in one of the world's wealthiest nations. These things matter, they are important, and they are worth fighting tooth-and-nail for.
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Old 10th February 2020, 08:33 AM   #114
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Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 11.


Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
How one Clinton liberal learned to love the Bern. Spoiler alert: her uninsured, Bernie-bro boyfriend died self-medicating for untreated mental illness.

https://www.elle.com/life-love/a3055...icare-for-all/

Often the criticism is made of Bernie supporters that they are too enthusiastic, too severe in their support. That they are contemptuous of those that oppose his policies, like Medicare for all.

A return to pre-Trump status-quo is accepting wide-scale suffering as a political expediency. Anything short of universal coverage is accepting that large swaths of people will die preventable deaths because they lack the ability to pay for treatment.

A vote for anything but Medicare for all is a vote for preventable death in one of the world's wealthiest nations. These things matter, they are important, and they are worth fighting tooth-and-nail for.
I think this tends to get lost among people all over the spectrum. For pretty much anyone you see talking about this stuff on TV this is all just an academic discussion. Sure, they acknowledge that the people affected by this do exist. But, it seems every discussion is about high minded policy. Like it is all one big simulation or hypothetical.

But, what I tell people at home and at work who do this is that this isn't some theoretical to millions. People are suffering and dying in these topics we all pontificate on. Real people. Yes, it is kind of a downer and makes people less likely to want to discuss politics, but some of them do get the message and I've been hearing it in how they do discuss these topics.

One of the reasons the Weakling won in 2016 is folks who either wanted him to "shake things up" or they just stayed home because they felt neither party spoke for them. And I think this is a big reason Sanders has gained so much traction. Forget the cranky old man stereotype and listen to what he's really saying at his events. Look at his ads. Whether you think it is genuine or not, there is a very strong message about empathy and compassion in there. Not just empty cliches about "being strong" or "the good old days".
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Old 11th February 2020, 02:18 AM   #115
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Mod WarningSeveral posts moved to AAH.

Please keep to the topic of the thread; if you have nothing relevant to say, then don't post in this thread. If you want to talk about the legitimacy of government, please start a thread on that. If you want to talk about other members, this is not the forum for that.
Thank you!
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Old 11th February 2020, 05:06 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It's time for the anti-Trump folks to start talking up the wonders of Moscow as a honeymoon destination, because believe it or not, Sanders is really, really likely to be the nominee.
Just as long as it happened during Perestroika, it's all good and for freedom and puppies.

You aren't against puppies, are you?
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Old 11th February 2020, 05:10 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Just as long as it happened during Perestroika, it's all good and for freedom and puppies.

You aren't against puppies, are you?
only the ones who are attracted to cows.
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Old 11th February 2020, 06:16 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 11.




I think this tends to get lost among people all over the spectrum. For pretty much anyone you see talking about this stuff on TV this is all just an academic discussion. Sure, they acknowledge that the people affected by this do exist. But, it seems every discussion is about high minded policy. Like it is all one big simulation or hypothetical.

But, what I tell people at home and at work who do this is that this isn't some theoretical to millions. People are suffering and dying in these topics we all pontificate on. Real people. Yes, it is kind of a downer and makes people less likely to want to discuss politics, but some of them do get the message and I've been hearing it in how they do discuss these topics.

One of the reasons the Weakling won in 2016 is folks who either wanted him to "shake things up" or they just stayed home because they felt neither party spoke for them. And I think this is a big reason Sanders has gained so much traction. Forget the cranky old man stereotype and listen to what he's really saying at his events. Look at his ads. Whether you think it is genuine or not, there is a very strong message about empathy and compassion in there. Not just empty cliches about "being strong" or "the good old days".
From yesterday's piece in "The Nation"

The Center Is a Decaying Piece of Real Estate

https://www.thenation.com/article/po...-2020-liberal/

Quote:
This would all be comical if it were not so dangerous. It should be plainly clear, by historical example, by logic, by any semblance of a moral compass, that there are matters in which the truth is not in the middle but in what is right against what is wrong. This year, liberal equivocation is personified by Joe Biden, whose purchase on the electorate is rapidly declining, and Pete Buttigieg, whose media presence has been elevated to levels far beyond his meager support—effectively zero among African Americans, one of the most crucial Democratic constituencies.
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Old 11th February 2020, 06:34 AM   #119
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The fallacy of a fear of Soooocialism goes back to the Domino theory, i.e. that once Americans have gotten a little taste of it there is an inevitable slippery slope to Communism and then a Borg Hive Mind.
If that's what you believe, means that you agree that the current system is so ****** that no one would want to return to it if there is an alternative.
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Old 11th February 2020, 06:54 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
It's on his campaign page stating that funds from wealth taxation will be used to fund at minimum, some of the social programs he wants to implement... if he got every one of his major policy goals in place the costs won't be offset enough, to shield middle class from those.
That's why he hasn't said they would be.
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