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Tags 2020 elections , Bernie Sanders , presidential candidates

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Old 18th February 2020, 09:35 AM   #201
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I like my plan through my employer and want to keep my plan.
What do you think would happen to your coverage under that plan if you were to become too ill to continue working?
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Old 18th February 2020, 09:38 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Quote:
Think about that: the one country that has implemented "BernieCare" has found that the resulting wait times were an abuse of human rights.
How would that same court evaluate whether or not it violates the right to life and security of a person if treatment was too expensive for the patients to afford?
Irrelevant (and frankly, idiotic) question.

As I have said multiple times in this thread, there is no reason that a private insurance system cannot co-exist with a universal public system. It is done in multiple western countries, and usually the result is a system that ends up with better results than Canada's health care system.

But then I guess its better to just retreat to the standard talking points... "What, you don't want to force everyone onto one health care system? Well obviously you want all poor people to die!", all the while ignoring the fact that I have repeatedly suggested a Mixed universal system (which will ensure basic coverage for everyone, but allow "extras" for those who wish to pay) is the best way to go.

Geez.... you people think you are smart enough to figure out health care but can't even understand the simple idea that there are other options besides the Canadian system.
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Old 18th February 2020, 09:40 AM   #203
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Bernie can't even control his own microphone.
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Old 18th February 2020, 09:45 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
More than a few misleading statements in there

both Harris' and warren's decline correlate with their walking back on their more progressive policies and statements, including Medicare for All. It seems not supporting M4A did more damage than supporting it.
...
It also assumes that their M4A stance was the reason any particular candidate won.
Hold on, let me get this straight...

When it comes to Warren and Harris, you are suggesting their drop in support was linked to their willingness to step back from Medicare for all.

But when talking about the election of congress-critters, you suggest that it "could have been other issues".

Isn't that a sort of double standard?
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Old 18th February 2020, 09:49 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Think about that: the one country that has implemented "BernieCare" has found that the resulting wait times were an abuse of human rights.
It's no secret that wait times in Quebec are ridiculous. The problem isn't that healthcare is free, it's that it's grossly mismanaged.

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Of course, I was being facetious.
Oh, I knew that. I knew it because nobody ever thought that. You just take jabs at your "enemies" without thinking.

Quote:
Democrats and their fake news division
Wow, that's ironic.
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Old 18th February 2020, 09:51 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
But you keep letting the Republicans define "extremes". Also, one of the reason the "extreme" candidates don't win is the perceived lack of support form the party itself.

Answer this: If Biden starts from the middle and the GOP in Congress are on the extreme right, where does the negotiating go?
The exact same place if you had Sanders starting from the extremes...

The GOP in congress will not care what the Democrat's starting point is. They aren't going to say "You wanted a $2 million for this social program but we'll only give you $1 million". Instead what they are going to say is "We will give you $1 million but only if you agree to carve Trump's face on mount Rushmore". And the same thing will happen regardless of what the Democrat's original starting point is.
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Old 18th February 2020, 09:56 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Irrelevant (and frankly, idiotic) question.
Why is it irrelevant? You brought up the Canadian healthcare system and said it violates human rights. Now you claim that discussion of it is irrelevant. Hmmmm....

Okay, let's say it does violate human rights. How does it compare with the US system, now?

Is it better or worse?

If it is better, then it is preferable to what exists now.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
As I have said multiple times in this thread, there is no reason that a private insurance system cannot co-exist with a universal public system. It is done in multiple western countries, and usually the result is a system that ends up with better results than Canada's health care system.
Great! Then hopefully that will be just round the corner. Or not. Apparently not. Or not yet. Are you saying you prefer, say, Pete Buttigieg's plan? Okay, fine if you are.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
But then I guess its better to just retreat to the standard talking points... "What, you don't want to force everyone onto one health care system? Well obviously you want all poor people to die!", all the while ignoring the fact that I have repeatedly suggested a Mixed universal system (which will ensure basic coverage for everyone, but allow "extras" for those who wish to pay) is the best way to go.
I think you are putting words in my mouth while accusing me of doing the same. I am not.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Geez.... you people think you are smart enough to figure out health care but can't even understand the simple idea that there are other options besides the Canadian system.
Huh? Who is "you people"? I am from the UK, and I live in Japan. Both countries have healthcare systems which are different from Canada's. I don't argue that Canada's is the only system, which is frankly idiotic and false claim, which you will retract if you have any sense of shame.
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Old 18th February 2020, 10:06 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Quote:
Think about that: the one country that has implemented "BernieCare" has found that the resulting wait times were an abuse of human rights.
It's no secret that wait times in Quebec are ridiculous.
Actually I believe all provinces have problems with wait times. Its not just a Quebec thing.
Quote:
The problem isn't that healthcare is free, it's that it's grossly mismanaged.
Canada has had government-funded health care for decades now. The system has existed through various combinations of Liberal, conservative and NDP governments at both the federal and provincial levels. Yet wait lists have been a problem all across the country.

Every once in a while some politician will claim they have a solution... and it may cut down the problem in one area of health care, but it will get worse in other areas.

If the problem has existed for so long, and under political parties from all parts of the political spectrum, then maybe the problem isn't just some local mismanagement but the overall concept. The idea that "Oh, the problem exists elsewhere but we will somehow do it right" seems a bit foolish.
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Old 18th February 2020, 10:10 AM   #209
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After all, Leonardo da Vinci was a literal genius and even he couldn't make a functional flying machine. Flight is impossible. Stop wasting time and resources imagining you can make it happen.
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Old 18th February 2020, 10:23 AM   #210
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You know who actually loves Medicare for Seniors? Insurance companies. They get to sell supplemental policies while the government covers the majority of costs.
Any Democrat who doesn't bring the insurance companies on board in developing a new plan will be repeating the mistakes of Clinton and Obama, which led to the disastrous mid-term elections of 1994 and 2010.
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Old 18th February 2020, 10:40 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Quote:
Think about that: the one country that has implemented "BernieCare" has found that the resulting wait times were an abuse of human rights.
Quote:
How would that same court evaluate whether or not it violates the right to life and security of a person if treatment was too expensive for the patients to afford?
Quote:
Irrelevant (and frankly, idiotic) question
Why is it irrelevant? You brought up the Canadian healthcare system and said it violates human rights. Now you claim that discussion of it is irrelevant.
Its irrelevant because nobody here (well, except for some right-wing trolls) have suggested that the U.S. system is working properly. Its certainly not something I've claimed. Time and time again, I have suggested that the best systems tend to be the ones that offer public coverage to everyone but allow private options for ones that want something different.

So bringing up the question of "what if a person can't afford it" is irrelevant because I am not suggesting the U.S. have a health care system that has that as a problem.

Quote:
Okay, let's say it does violate human rights. How does it compare with the US system, now?

Is it better or worse?

If it is better, then it is preferable to what exists now.
I am not denying that a "medicare for all" system is better than what exists in the U.S.

What I am saying is that of all the alternatives that are available, BernieCare would be replacing the worst health care system with the second worst. Yes, its an improvement, but the U.S. could do much better.
Quote:
Great! Then hopefully that will be just round the corner. Or not. Apparently not. Or not yet. Are you saying you prefer, say, Pete Buttigieg's plan? Okay, fine if you are.
The big question is: does it offer universal health care, including providing coverage to those who are otherwise unable to afford it? From the looks of his plan, it does seem to offer that.

There are a few issues with his plan that I have questions/concerns about.... there was talk about him retroactively charging people for health care, and I am concerned about controlling certain costs.

Quote:
Quote:
But then I guess its better to just retreat to the standard talking points... "What, you don't want to force everyone onto one health care system? Well obviously you want all poor people to die!", all the while ignoring the fact that I have repeatedly suggested a Mixed universal system (which will ensure basic coverage for everyone, but allow "extras" for those who wish to pay) is the best way to go.
I think you are putting words in my mouth while accusing me of doing the same. I am not.
Sorry... its just a standard tactic among people who want BernieCare...

When I point out a potential flaw in that system, they immediately jump in and point out how much worse the American system currently is, completely ignoring the fact that I have repeatedly said the American system needs reform. When you pointed out how a "poor person would not be able to afford a medical procedure" I assumed you were engaging in the same tactic.

If that wasn't your intent then I apologise.
Quote:
Huh? Who is "you people"? I am from the UK, and I live in Japan. Both countries have healthcare systems which are different from Canada's. I don't argue that Canada's is the only system, which is frankly idiotic and false claim, which you will retract if you have any sense of shame.
Again, my apologies... I assumed you were pushing for BernieCare by highlighting a fault in the American system and ignoring alternatives I provided.
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Old 18th February 2020, 11:32 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Actually I believe all provinces have problems with wait times. Its not just a Quebec thing.
No, but I'd be willing to bet that Quebec has it a bit worse.

Quote:
Canada has had government-funded health care for decades now. The system has existed through various combinations of Liberal, conservative and NDP governments at both the federal and provincial levels. Yet wait lists have been a problem all across the country.
Maybe it's always been grossly mismanaged. The bureaucracy transcends government.
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Old 18th February 2020, 12:57 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Hold on, let me get this straight...

When it comes to Warren and Harris, you are suggesting their drop in support was linked to their willingness to step back from Medicare for all.
I said correlated. There are most likely a lot of factors, but perceived waffling is never good for a candidate. Harris probably got more hurt by big donors waiting on Bloomberg, so less money to go between the centrists like her, Biden and Buttigieg. Her enthusiastic support for M4A then walking back almost immediately could not have helped her.

Quote:
But when talking about the election of congress-critters, you suggest that it "could have been other issues".

Isn't that a sort of double standard?
In both instances, I pointed how it wasn't as black and white as you presented it.

Also, are you saying I'm wrong? You think Warren and Harris benefited from backing away from Medicare for All? Or do you believe it had no effect?
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Old 18th February 2020, 01:01 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The exact same place if you had Sanders starting from the extremes...

The GOP in congress will not care what the Democrat's starting point is. They aren't going to say "You wanted a $2 million for this social program but we'll only give you $1 million". Instead what they are going to say is "We will give you $1 million but only if you agree to carve Trump's face on mount Rushmore". And the same thing will happen regardless of what the Democrat's original starting point is.
Then %^&* it. Swing for the fences and bring some Democrats into the senate with Sanders. And makes sure you get public pressure on your side.
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Old 18th February 2020, 01:39 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Quote:
The GOP in congress will not care what the Democrat's starting point is. They aren't going to say "You wanted a $2 million for this social program but we'll only give you $1 million". Instead what they are going to say is "We will give you $1 million but only if you agree to carve Trump's face on mount Rushmore". And the same thing will happen regardless of what the Democrat's original starting point is.
Then %^&* it. Swing for the fences and bring some Democrats into the senate with Sanders. And makes sure you get public pressure on your side.
You are assuming that

1) "swinging for the fences" will actually bring about the optimum solution (as I pointed out, BernieCare is not the worst health care system, but it may be the second worst), an

2) That 'extreme' solution will actually help "get some democrats in the senate". Yes, I know you have this fantasy that a health care option which is actually the least popular alternative is somehow going to propel the Democrats into power. I remain... skeptical. People will gush all over BernieCare... "Wow it ensures everyone is covered? Wow... I'm all for it". Until they learn the details.

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-amer...healthcare-for
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Old 18th February 2020, 02:27 PM   #216
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Maybe if the establish Dems quit lying about it and stopped their mouth pieces in the media from lying about it, people's minds would change.

Stop using GOP talking points like "choice" when it comes to health insurance providers. Stop saying "We're going to spend X trillion dollars!" without mentioning that under the current system, we'll end up paying 30% more than that in government and individual expenses. Stop crying about taxes without mentioning the out of pocket costs.
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Old 18th February 2020, 03:02 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Maybe if the establish Dems quit lying about it and stopped their mouth pieces in the media from lying about it, people's minds would change.
Will Sanders also start mentioning how other countries manage to provide universal coverage (at a cheap price) and still allow private insurance? Or is it only the 'establishment' democrats who have to change?

Will Sanders also mention that the only country that comes close to BernieCare has significant problems with waiting lists? Or again, is it only the establishment democrats that have to be honest?
Quote:
Stop using GOP talking points like "choice" when it comes to health insurance providers.
Why would the other democrats want to stop talking about choice? After all, that's the key difference between them and Sanders... they want to allow people to have a choice, Sanders does not.
Quote:
Stop saying "We're going to spend X trillion dollars!" without mentioning that under the current system, we'll end up paying 30% more than that in government and individual expenses. Stop crying about taxes without mentioning the out of pocket costs.
Once again... mixed public/private systems often have costs that are about the same as an all public system.

Not really sure why that concept is so hard for some people to understand.
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Old 18th February 2020, 03:09 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post

Will Sanders also mention that the only country that comes close to BernieCare has significant problems with waiting lists? Or again, is it only the establishment democrats that have to be honest?
Define "significant wait times". Also, are you asserting that it is because of their single payer system that they have these "significant wait times"? Because I have really good private insurance through my job and I have schedule appointments with PCP and my dermatologist months in advance. And I'll spare you the horse#$%^ my wife goes through trying to schedule the doctors she has to regularly see.

Quote:
Why would the other democrats want to stop talking about choice?
Because its a fallacy and being used to confuse the issue?

Quote:
After all, that's the key difference between them and Sanders... they want to allow people to have a choice, Sanders does not.
Sanders wants you to be able to choose your doctor. Which seems to be the more important "choice".

Quote:
Once again... mixed public/private systems often have costs that are about the same as an all public system.
Great, then all we have to do is flush the BS fallacy of "choice".

Quote:
Not really sure why that concept is so hard for some people to understand.
Its easy to understand. I understand so well, I know why its BS. Perhaps the Democrats should stop using Koch Brothers pamphlets for talking points.
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Old 18th February 2020, 03:53 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Define "significant wait times". Also, are you asserting that it is because of their single payer system that they have these "significant wait times"? Because I have really good private insurance through my job and I have schedule appointments with PCP and my dermatologist months in advance.
Months wait time to see a dermatologist? Lucky.

Took me almost a year to get a consult from my primary care doctor to actually see the dermatologist. And I'm still waiting for the appointment for actual treatment. And in about a month it will have been a year since I requested an appointment to see a sleep specialist.

But hey, just because sleep apnea has been linked to minor little conditions like heart attacks and stroke, doesn't mean being stuck on the waiting list is a bad thing, does it?

From: https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/wait-...alth-1.3984920
Less than half (43 per cent) of Canadians could get a same- or next-day appointment with their family doctors or at their regular place of care the last time they needed medical attention, researchers found. The highest were in New Zealand (76 per cent) and the Netherlands (77 per cent). The international average was 57 per cent.
(Hmm... new Zealand and Netherlands both allow private payments. Canada was at the bottom of the list.)

What about MRIs? If you're in an emergency you'll probably get treated quickly. But if you're not a priority?

From: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2653696/
...most MRI facilities in Canada have a substantial wait list problem, with some centres reporting wait times of up to one month for urgent scans and up to several years for non-urgent scans.

Need a knee replaced? Well, there's this:

From: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.105...99410203311607
The median waiting time for an initial consultation was two weeks in the United States and four weeks in Ontario (Table 1). The mean waiting time was consistently shorter in each U.S. survey area than in Ontario...The median waiting time for knee replacement from the time surgery was planned was three weeks in the United States and eight weeks in Ontario.

But hey, what's an extra month or 2 of pain. No big deal, right?
Quote:
Quote:
Why would the other democrats want to stop talking about choice?
Because its a fallacy and being used to confuse the issue?
Not really sure if you know what a 'choice' is.

Under (for example) the U.K. system, you can chose... "Do I want to pay a bit extra for private insurance". In Canada you have absolutely no choice.
Quote:
Sanders wants you to be able to choose your doctor. Which seems to be the more important "choice".
Well bully for sanders.

But believe it or not, there are more health care issues than just 'who is your doctor'.

A public system cannot be all things to all people. Compromises must be made. Not everyone will be satisfied with those compromises. Some patients may want more 'cutting edge' treatment than a public system might provide. Others may want more personal care.
Quote:
Quote:
Once again... mixed public/private systems often have costs that are about the same as an all public system.
Great, then all we have to do is flush the BS fallacy of "choice".
Why is it a fallacy?

The highest ranked health care systems offer choice... public or private. The second-worst health care system says "you have no choice". Why do you insist that its necessary to emulate the second worst health care system rather than one of the better health care systems?
Quote:
Quote:
Not really sure why that concept is so hard for some people to understand.
Its easy to understand. I understand so well, I know why its BS. Perhaps the Democrats should stop using Koch Brothers pamphlets for talking points.
Obviously its too difficult for you to understand. The fact that you are circling back to the whole "If you don't love Berniecare you want to let people die" argument. Which is bunk. Its the brain-damaged response that you get from people who only seem to parrot talking points without understanding anything.

Once again.... you do not have to ban private health care to provide universal coverage. The United Kingdom does it. Sweden does it. They both have better systems than Canada.

The idea that you have to ban private insurance is not based on evidence. It is based on ideology.
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Old 18th February 2020, 04:48 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
All we need is another Great Depression to usher in a new golden age for Progressives.
Four more years of Trump just might make that happen.
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Old 18th February 2020, 04:56 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Mitch McConnell is calling Biden a socialist on the Sunday morning talk shows already. Buttigieg was right about that. The Republicans will scream "socialist" no matter who they put up. The Dems have to stop being afraid of how the Republicans are going to smear them and figure out how to sell these already popular ideas to the American people.
Let's not forget how the Republicans kept portraying Obama, a centrist Democrat if there ever was one, as a flaming radical socialist.
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Old 18th February 2020, 06:08 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Its irrelevant because nobody here (well, except for some right-wing trolls) have suggested that the U.S. system is working properly. Its certainly not something I've claimed. Time and time again, I have suggested that the best systems tend to be the ones that offer public coverage to everyone but allow private options for ones that want something different.

So bringing up the question of "what if a person can't afford it" is irrelevant because I am not suggesting the U.S. have a health care system that has that as a problem.


I am not denying that a "medicare for all" system is better than what exists in the U.S.

What I am saying is that of all the alternatives that are available, BernieCare would be replacing the worst health care system with the second worst. Yes, its an improvement, but the U.S. could do much better.

The big question is: does it offer universal health care, including providing coverage to those who are otherwise unable to afford it? From the looks of his plan, it does seem to offer that.

There are a few issues with his plan that I have questions/concerns about.... there was talk about him retroactively charging people for health care, and I am concerned about controlling certain costs.


Sorry... its just a standard tactic among people who want BernieCare...

When I point out a potential flaw in that system, they immediately jump in and point out how much worse the American system currently is, completely ignoring the fact that I have repeatedly said the American system needs reform. When you pointed out how a "poor person would not be able to afford a medical procedure" I assumed you were engaging in the same tactic.

If that wasn't your intent then I apologise.

Again, my apologies... I assumed you were pushing for BernieCare by highlighting a fault in the American system and ignoring alternatives I provided.

Okay, well thanks for the apologies, as it becomes difficult to argue for something when you had appeared to make assumptions about me that aren't true.

I'll just say that, no I do not think that Bernie Sanders offers the best possible alternative to the current system, but I would be interested to know which plans from other candidates are better.

It's all well and good for us to suggest better alternatives, but are they on the table? If not, are we not making the perfect the enemy of the good?
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Old 18th February 2020, 06:46 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Once again.... you do not have to ban private health care to provide universal coverage. The United Kingdom does it. Sweden does it. They both have better systems than Canada.

The idea that you have to ban private insurance is not based on evidence. It is based on ideology.
I'm just not sure you've demonstrated that the reason for the delays in the Canadian system is that there is no private option. Correlation is not causation and all that. Maybe if you suddenly got a private option, there would still be delays in the public health care system. What then?
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Old 18th February 2020, 07:08 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
You know who actually loves Medicare for Seniors? Insurance companies. They get to sell supplemental policies while the government covers the majority of costs.
Any Democrat who doesn't bring the insurance companies on board in developing a new plan will be repeating the mistakes of Clinton and Obama, which led to the disastrous mid-term elections of 1994 and 2010.
Obama was a year and half in office when the Red Wave captured dozens of seats across the country. I highly doubt there was enough time to process anything he did substantively as opposed to right-wing scaremongering about him and his policies.

And are you saying Obama didn't work with the insurance industry? There are hundreds of insurers still participating in the exchange. There were almost 400 during the ACA's peak.
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Old 19th February 2020, 07:08 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I'm not an American, but based on what I've heard so far, it seems to me that 'Bernieism' wants to make the Democrats work for implementing what a majority of Americans, in particular the ones who vote for Democrats, want to see implemented: universal health care, free education, gun control, marriage equality a possibility for illegal immigrants living in the USA to stay. They don't seem to be talking about train grabbing, even though a lot of them would probably like to see changes to infrastructure to help fight global warming.

Do you fear that Bernie Sanders's followers are more likely to want a ruthless dictator like Stalin to take control of the USA than Republicans who meet frequently to chant that their dear leader should lock up his political opponents?
I hate to reply to the same post twice but some of the things I read here are just so off the mark it's really past the point of being funny.

Gay marriage was put to the vote in the solid Democratic stronghold of California and failed miserably. eta: (the proposition opposed same sex marriage so in that sense it succeeded.) So gay marriage had to get passed in the Supreme Court. And guess who opposed same-sex marriage the most? You guessed it, those most likely to vote Democrat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_C...tion_8#Results

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Old 20th February 2020, 04:19 AM   #226
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As far as the healthcare debate goes, I've just learnt of the story of Allena Hansen. She had her face ripped off by a bear, and had to drive herself several miles in order to get help, despite being blinded by the attack. Despite having good health insurance, she considers the worst part of the whole ordeal to be trying to pay for and get payment for her medical treatment. This is despite being related to several Doctors, and having worked in the medical insurance field herself.

Her story

Quote:
Last summer, while working on my ranch in the Southern Sierra mountains, I was attacked and badly mauled by a predatory black bear. Although my face was ripped off, and I was blinded, I was able to make my way back to my vehicle and drive myself down a rutted mountain road to a fire station for help. From there I was airlifted to UCLA Medical Center where a team of nearly a hundred people put me back together in a grueling seven-hour emergency surgery.

That was the easy part...

Although I’ve maintained a private individual health insurance policy with Blue Cross of California for thirty (30) years, they have, at every turn of my ordeal, tried to waffle, obfuscate, or outright deny me benefits for medical care. Because my injuries were mostly to my eyes, my facial structure (including my nose and most of my teeth,) and obviously, cosmetic appearance, my policy “does not cover services,” for putting me back together, and demands 30% co-pays before they will pay for the hugely expensive ($300,000 and counting,) reconstructive surgeries I need to regain a degree of functionality.I am, not surprisingly, disabled and unable to work. My assets and savings were exhausted long ago, (their deductable and co-pays reset every calendar year and my reassembly is a multi-year project.)

I always thought having a "good" insurance policy was not only my civic responsibility, but would cover my medical expenses should I ever face a catastrophic illness. But it turns out that Blue Cross's $2,500 deductable is actually more in the order of an $11,500 deductable before they kick in for 100% of what they deem "reasonable and customary" care. Even that determination is subjective and skewered in their favor. All this is on top of Blue Cross's insanely expensive monthly premiums -a difficult proposition for me given that SSI disability only pays me $654-oops, just reduced to $625-- a month on which to live. Twice in the last month, Blue Cross denied payment for ophthalmologic consults I had arranged to see if some of my eyesight can be retained. Then there is the $600+ per month Blue Cross doesn’t cover in specialized prescription eyedrops I need to save what is left. My other medications are similarly extortionate and not covered.MediCal, for which I now qualify, does not have any participating ophthalmo-plastic, maxilla-facial, periodontic, or reconstructive surgeons here in Kern Kounty who are qualified to do these surgeries. Nor will they or Blue Cross pay for anesthesia if I DO find someone willing to do them! (There’s nothing like having an acute PTSD episode when you’re trying to lie very still for a delicate bone or tissue graft.)

On the plus side, I DID fight off a bear attack and survive to tell the tale. I am also the daughter, sister, mother, sister-in-law, niece, and former wife of physicians–and spent my 20’s working in the medical malpractice insurance industry–so I do know the ins and outs of the system in detail. Medical insurance is a license to print money...by the industry's own admission.

If anyone is interested in using me as a "spokesvictim," I’ve documented my injuries and recovery in both journalistic and photographic detail and have a complete record of my insurance travails. I am in an unique position to advocate for getting the insurance industry out of the medical care system–and am more than willing to offer up my privacy and dignity in order to do so. I am free to travel and testify, am articulate and funny, and have had highly positive responses to my public appearances thus far. (If you Google me, many of these are posted. I also have DVD’s of most of them.)

Allena Hansen
That is what people arguing for the current US healthcare system are arguing for.
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Old 20th February 2020, 08:04 AM   #227
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It's also what the "but this other system that's far far better in most ways has a few tiny imperfections too!" type are defending, whether they admit it or not.
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:59 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
That's why he hasn't said they would be.
What you're claiming is the complete opposite of what his basic platform advertises... if you're trying to move goal posts, this response wasnt the way to do it
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Old 20th February 2020, 03:25 PM   #229
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
As far as the healthcare debate goes, I've just learnt of the story of Allena Hansen....Despite having good health insurance, she considers the worst part of the whole ordeal to be trying to pay for and get payment for her medical treatment.
...
That is what people arguing for the current US healthcare system are arguing for.
Sounds like a pretty horrible case.

Its a good thing that nobody in this thread is actually arguing that the U.S. health care system should be kept as it is. (Well, except for perhaps a troll or 2.)

I know I've never stated that the health care system in the U.S. is fine as it is. Even though I have talked about the benefits of allowing private options, I have never denied the need for major reforms in the system.
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Old 20th February 2020, 03:37 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Gay marriage was put to the vote in the solid Democratic stronghold of California and failed miserably. eta: (the proposition opposed same sex marriage so in that sense it succeeded.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_C...tion_8#Results
"Failed Miserably"? The "yes" side for Prop 8 got 52%. The "no" side got 48%. Less than 5% separated the 2 sides. Not exactly overly strong support for it.
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Old 20th February 2020, 03:45 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I'll just say that, no I do not think that Bernie Sanders offers the best possible alternative to the current system, but I would be interested to know which plans from other candidates are better.

It's all well and good for us to suggest better alternatives, but are they on the table? If not, are we not making the perfect the enemy of the good?
Well all of the other candidates have offered plans that will ensure everyone (or almost everyone) gets covered, through various combinations of expanding medicare/medicaid, and/or greater subsidies for insurance.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...ocratic-debate

Now, admittedly there are other areas that the U.S. needs to deal with in order to control costs... simplifying/streamlining insurance payouts, tort reform, etc.
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Old 20th February 2020, 04:06 PM   #232
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Quote:
Once again.... you do not have to ban private health care to provide universal coverage. The United Kingdom does it. Sweden does it. They both have better systems than Canada.

The idea that you have to ban private insurance is not based on evidence. It is based on ideology.
I'm just not sure you've demonstrated that the reason for the delays in the Canadian system is that there is no private option. Correlation is not causation and all that. Maybe if you suddenly got a private option, there would still be delays in the public health care system. What then?
First of all, you're right... I didn't "prove" that the waiting list issues in Canada were due to lack of private coverage.

But then, lets look at some of the data...

If its not our "public only" system, then what? If you compare Canada with countries like the U.K., Sweden, Australia, etc. (all countries that tend to rank better in health care), we're not that different... roughly equivalent standards of living. We all pay roughly the same for health care, so its not like Canada is under funding things. Roughly equal life spans. Canada is a bigger country geographically, but since the vast majority of Canadians live in cities, that's not really a major issue. Granted, Canada has more problems with moose attacks, but I hardly think that puts a significant strain on our health care system.

Also, consider these:
- In the U.K., people can get insurance to be treated in private facilities. However, if there is extra capacity in those private facilities, they sometimes take in customers from he pubic system.
- In British Columbia, Canada, the government is allowing private MRI clinics to take care of a backlog of people waiting for scans. (This is kind of a weird situation... private clinics can be considered a violation of the Canada health act, depending on the circumstances, but B.C.'s backlog was so great that they are giving them a waiver.)

So, in 2 cases, private insurance/private practice has stepped in to improve the responsiveness of a public system.

Is it definitive proof that the existence of private medical care can help reduce wait times overall? No, but I think it certainly points in that direction.

Secondly... even if wait times AREN'T improved by allowing private insurance... I think the number of countries that have managed to successfully mix private and public health care, at a decent cost and with universal coverage shows that it CAN be done without problem. So even if private insurance doesn't significantly speed up the system, it doesn't really harm anything either.

At the very least, it provides some psychological comfort for people who might actually want to have options. And, it would make the health care plan more popular when it comes time to actually pass it. (People LOVE Berniecare, until they learn the details and find out that private insurance would be banned. If Sanders dropped that useless part of his plan, he would have a much easier time defeating Trump.)
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Old 20th February 2020, 05:32 PM   #233
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Why worry about whether or not Bernie's plan will work? There aren't 60 votes in the Senate for it and there never will be. There may not even be the votes in the House. The newly blue suburban districts are full of voters who already have health plans.

We could instead try for a plan to gets people who need it on Medicare, you know something that might actually happen.

While we're on the topic, why do people think Sanders will all of a sudden get people to work with him on his agenda when almost no one in Congress is now? Is he supposed to magically be able to build coalitions all of a sudden when he never has before?
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Old 20th February 2020, 05:59 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
While we're on the topic, why do people think Sanders will all of a sudden get people to work with him on his agenda when almost no one in Congress is now? Is he supposed to magically be able to build coalitions all of a sudden when he never has before?
Yeah, I don't get that either. Might be someone else has to build the coalition. Incrementalism may be the only viable strategy.

Health care is a beast - no one knew it could be so complicated!
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Old 20th February 2020, 06:01 PM   #235
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Incrementalism + compromise would get my attention, and probably even my vote.
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Old 20th February 2020, 06:14 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Why worry about whether or not Bernie's plan will work? There aren't 60 votes in the Senate for it and there never will be. There may not even be the votes in the House. The newly blue suburban districts are full of voters who already have health plans.

We could instead try for a plan to gets people who need it on Medicare, you know something that might actually happen.

While we're on the topic, why do people think Sanders will all of a sudden get people to work with him on his agenda when almost no one in Congress is now? Is he supposed to magically be able to build coalitions all of a sudden when he never has before?
And that is a major problem with Sanders..though the Bros refuse to see it.
He appeals to the left wing of the Dems, but has never shown much on a ability to appeal to anybody outside of it.
Which is why every scenario for a Sanders victory in November ,though his supporters deny it, rests on the "Lost Tribe" school of politics..there is a huge lost tribe of Left wing voters who will come out of hiding for the right candidate.
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Old 20th February 2020, 06:43 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What do you think would happen to your coverage under that plan if you were to become too ill to continue working?
I thought about it for a while, and I've never known anyone who got too sick to continue working. But, if that did happen I would just go on my wife's insurance. Certainly if that did happen to anyone it would be a major problem, but we don't need "Medicare For All" to solve that problem. I know in Dallas anyone in the area can go to Parkland for treatment, and they provide a billion dollars a year in uncompensated healthcare. (A third of their operating expenses are paid for by property taxes.) I actually saw my father-in-law throw a 35K bill from Parkland in the trash because there was no way he was going to ever be able to pay it. It was just a small part of the billion for that year.
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Old 20th February 2020, 06:59 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
As far as the healthcare debate goes, I've just learnt of the story of Allena Hansen. She had her face ripped off by a bear, and had to drive herself several miles in order to get help, despite being blinded by the attack. Despite having good health insurance, she considers the worst part of the whole ordeal to be trying to pay for and get payment for her medical treatment. This is despite being related to several Doctors, and having worked in the medical insurance field herself.

Her story



That is what people arguing for the current US healthcare system are arguing for.
Something about this is not adding up.

I guess The Daily Mail isn't the world's most reliable source, but:

Quote:
Now she has recovered Ms Hansen still lives on her remote ranch with her two dogs and enjoys riding her four horses.
So apparently she got the care she needed and did not lose all of her assets.

There will always be outliers because there is a fundamental mismatch between what can be done medically and what individuals/societies are ever going to be able to afford.

Hope she carries a shotgun now.
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Old 20th February 2020, 07:19 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Which is why every scenario for a Sanders victory in November ,though his supporters deny it, rests on the "Lost Tribe" school of politics..there is a huge lost tribe of Left wing voters who will come out of hiding for the right candidate.

I've shown you evidence for a Sanders victory that does not depend on some "Lost Tribe".

Why you persist in preserving your ignorance on this point simply remains a mystery to me.
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:46 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I've shown you evidence for a Sanders victory that does not depend on some "Lost Tribe".

Why you persist in preserving your ignorance on this point simply remains a mystery to me.
Nevada will hopefully put this silly thing to rest. This isn't 2016. Bernie has broad support this time around.
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