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Tags 2020 elections , Bernie Sanders , presidential candidates

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Old 24th February 2020, 10:15 AM   #281
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Party loyalty is overrated.
*Head desk* THEN DON'T EXPECT IT FROM THE PARTY EITHER!

The DNC has no obligation to run someone who thinks they are too good for them.

If "Party Loyalty" is overrated then Sanders and his supporter should stick to his precious morals and run as an independent.

Again don't declare the DNC/Political Parties in general messed up and then demand a percentage of their messed-up-ed-ness because that's the only way you have a shot at the big seat.

Bernie Sanders can't want the DNC name, money, established political base, etc to use but be too good for it at the same time.
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Old 24th February 2020, 10:19 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Head desk* THEN DON'T EXPECT IT FROM THE PARTY EITHER!

The DNC has no obligation to run someone who thinks they are too good for them.

If "Party Loyalty" is overrated then Sanders and his supporter should stick to his precious morals and run as an independent.

Again don't declare the DNC/Political Parties in general messed up and then demand a percentage of their messed-up-ed-ness because that's the only way you have a shot at the big seat.

Bernie Sanders can't want the DNC name, money, established political base, etc to use but be too good for it at the same time.
Apparently Bernie Sanders can do that, because he is doing that. Did you also say that about Trump and the Republican Party? Because I have shocking news on that.
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Old 24th February 2020, 10:19 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Head desk* THEN DON'T EXPECT IT FROM THE PARTY EITHER!

The DNC has no obligation to run someone who thinks they are too good for them.

If "Party Loyalty" is overrated then Sanders and his supporter should stick to his precious morals and run as an independent.

Again don't declare the DNC/Political Parties in general messed up and then demand a percentage of their messed-up-ed-ness because that's the only way you have a shot at the big seat.

Bernie Sanders can't want the DNC name, money, established political base, etc to use but be too good for it at the same time.
Boo hoo, the Democratic party is losing control of their giant machine.

Sucks for them. Bernie's running, and they can try and stop him, but they can't succeed without killing themselves in the process. The progressives are taking their seat at the table. Resistance is futile.

Perhaps the elites should reflect on how they've managed to alienate such a large portion of the rank and file voters. Bernie can't succeed unless he is popular with the exact people the party is supposed to represent.
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Old 24th February 2020, 10:25 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Boo hoo, the Democratic party is losing control of their giant machine.
Boo hoo the Democratic Party isn't sucking up to my candidate as much as the others just because he "keeps it real" by telling them how much they suck.

The DNC is going to show more support for people who didn't just up and decide to become Democrats when they hit the "This is how high up a Independent can go" ceiling.

Yes they are going to make things harder for Bernie then they would for Sanders or Biden or whoever. Because Sanders and Biden and etc have been with them since the beginning not whenever it was convenient and beneficial for them.
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Old 24th February 2020, 10:28 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Apparently Bernie Sanders can do that, because he is doing that. Did you also say that about Trump and the Republican Party? Because I have shocking news on that.
1. Yes I did, and even more so in the "Hey idiots if this guy is running under your name it's your job to keep him in check" way.

2. I though Democrats and their precious morals were supposed to be better then the Repug-nicans or whatever the cutesy poo approved term is now.
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Old 24th February 2020, 10:28 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Boo hoo the Democratic Party isn't sucking up to my candidate as much as the others just because he "keeps it real" by telling them how much they suck.

The DNC is going to show more support for people who didn't just up and decide to become Democrats when they hit the "This is how high up a Independent can go" ceiling.

Yes they are going to make things harder for Bernie then they would for Sanders or Biden or whoever. Because Sanders and Biden and etc have been with them since the beginning not whenever it was convenient and beneficial for them.
I mean, sure, that's fine.

The progressives can turn their back on the party and go their own way, handing Trump an easy win.

If the party wants to give the progressive wing the cold shoulder, that's their choice. Nobody can stop them from putting the metaphorical revolver in their own mouth.

Bernie supporters, myself included, are disinclined to support a party that is openly hostile to the will of the voters.

Again, remember what the context of what we're talking about here. A brokered convention in which Bernie is the clear plurality winner. Say 35-49% of pledged delegates with no one else close. How else would you interpret anyone but Bernie getting the nomination?
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Old 24th February 2020, 10:32 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Which is , my own personal opinion (and yours to be very, very clear) about any of those three men and their practical applications of said philosophy not withstanding and put very firmly to the side, at least conceptually noble. People in leadership positions should use political parties as tools, not straight jackets.
That extended clause in the middle confused the crap out of me.

I actually swing the other way on this point. "Conceptually noble" to me is establishing a party that expresses certain values, and seeks to enact policy that is consistent with those values. Cynical exploitation of the party establishment as a tool by those in leadership positions is, for me, the opposite of the "conceptually noble" purpose of political parties.

Quote:
But you can't demand more loyalty from the party then you are giving it and again someone who's only "loyal to the party" (loaded as that term my be) when he decides he wants to run for an office outside the state of Vermont is doing just that.
This I agree with.

That said, I think it's been a long time since the GOP existed as a statement of values and guide for policy, rather than a cynical tool of those in leadership.
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Old 24th February 2020, 10:36 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
1. Yes I did, and even more so in the "Hey idiots if this guy is running under your name it's your job to keep him in check" way.
And what was the result? Did the Republicans turn away from Trump? And did Trump lose the election?


Quote:
2. I though Democrats and their precious morals were supposed to be better then the Repug-nicans or whatever the cutesy poo approved term is now.
The failures of our educational system are well-documented.
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Old 24th February 2020, 10:48 AM   #289
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Pouting isn't very presidential.
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Old 24th February 2020, 10:49 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And what was the result? Did the Republicans turn away from Trump? And did Trump lose the election?




The failures of our educational system are well-documented.
The way I see it, Trump delivered on promises that the Republican party had been making, but not keeping, for decades. Unfortunately for the country, most of those promises were pretty nasty.

All those years of racist dog whistling with no payoff until finally the primary voters snapped and you get a Trump. Trump didn't invent immigrant hysteria, he just was willing to say the quiet part loud.

The Democratic party has been talking a good game about progressive issues for a long time, but their record of performance is quite spotty.
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Old 24th February 2020, 10:58 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Boo hoo the Democratic Party isn't sucking up to my candidate as much as the others just because he "keeps it real" by telling them how much they suck.

The DNC is going to show more support for people who didn't just up and decide to become Democrats when they hit the "This is how high up a Independent can go" ceiling.

Yes they are going to make things harder for Bernie then they would for Sanders or Biden or whoever. Because Sanders and Biden and etc have been with them since the beginning not whenever it was convenient and beneficial for them.
Did you mean Warren?
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Old 24th February 2020, 11:00 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Did you mean Warren?
I did.

//I have no idea why but I find myself switching their names fairly often which is weird because they don't sound alike.//
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Old 24th February 2020, 11:04 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I did.

//I have no idea why but I find myself switching their names fairly often which is weird because they don't sound alike.//
Warren's hardly "been with the Democrats all along", having begun as an actual Republican. And at the moment she's only slightly less unpopular with the DNC machinery than Sanders. The key is attitude towards big banks and the finance industry. DNC loves those things very much. Warren, not so much!
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Old 24th February 2020, 02:28 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Bernie's running, and they can try and stop him, but they can't succeed without killing themselves in the process.
So the Dems (I've never been one) are given a clear choice between losing to an incumbent Republican (something they've bounced back from time and again in the last few decades) and allowing DemSoc entryists to take over the party and steer it indefinitely.

Which one of these two options is "killing themselves," politically?
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Old 24th February 2020, 02:41 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If the party wants to give the progressive wing the cold shoulder, that's their choice. Nobody can stop them from putting the metaphorical revolver in their own mouth.
That right there is the bit that shows what utter nonsense JoeMorgue's anti-Bernie rant is. He's not trying to invade the party from the outside. He's trying to remind it of what it was supposed to be all along, what it claims to be, and what most of its voters still are and still want from it.

And JoeMorgue, you know it. If what you're claiming this rant is about were the real motivation behind the rant, you wouldn't be making it exclusive to Bernie. You'd have the same thing to say about all of the top candidates. Betty's a former Republican whose latest big move on policy in this campaign was to Republicanize. Bloomy's another former Republican whose support for Republicans helped to get us into the mess we're in now. Bidey has called himself a Democrat all along but consistently pushed hard for Republican policies (sometimes even telling Republicans they weren't being Republican enough) that whole time while repeatedly boasting about how wonderful it is to be so "bipartisan" and what wonderful folks Republicans are. But they get not a peep from you about what invasive non-Democrat outsiders they are; that's saved for the single most Democratic one we have.
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Old 24th February 2020, 02:56 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
That right there is the bit that shows what utter nonsense JoeMorgue's anti-Bernie rant is. He's not trying to invade the party from the outside. He's trying to remind it of what it was supposed to be all along, what it claims to be, and what most of its voters still are and still want from it.

And JoeMorgue, you know it. If what you're claiming this rant is about were the real motivation behind the rant, you wouldn't be making it exclusive to Bernie. You'd have the same thing to say about all of the top candidates. Betty's a former Republican whose latest big move on policy in this campaign was to Republicanize. Bloomy's another former Republican whose support for Republicans helped to get us into the mess we're in now. Bidey has called himself a Democrat all along but consistently pushed hard for Republican policies (sometimes even telling Republicans they weren't being Republican enough) that whole time while repeatedly boasting about how wonderful it is to be so "bipartisan" and what wonderful folks Republicans are. But they get not a peep from you about what invasive non-Democrat outsiders they are; that's saved for the single most Democratic one we have.
Because Bernie's the only one with a goddamn obsessed fanclub.

I don't have to defend myself when I don't gush over how wonderful and perfect Biden or Warren is.

I say crap about the other candidates all the time. Just nobody cares because nobody feels the need to rush in to defend their honor from these "attacks" because they understand that's what politics is.

But I get more crap from the Bernie Bros then I do from the Trumpers.
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Old 24th February 2020, 03:02 PM   #297
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I see the Bernie Bros are in full "Down With All Who Criticise Dear Leader" mode.
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Old 24th February 2020, 03:23 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see the Bernie Bros are in full "Down With All Who Criticise Dear Leader" mode.

When it's based on false beliefs (you know, like your own beliefs are) you can be damn well assured I'll challenge you on it with facts.

Get over it.
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Old 24th February 2020, 03:28 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because Bernie's the only one with a goddamn obsessed fanclub.

I don't have to defend myself when I don't gush over how wonderful and perfect Biden or Warren is.

I say crap about the other candidates all the time. Just nobody cares because nobody feels the need to rush in to defend their honor from these "attacks" because they understand that's what politics is.

But I get more crap from the Bernie Bros then I do from the Trumpers.
Haven't you said repeatedly that all Trumpers do is troll half the time now?

Do you really expect less "crap" (counterarguments) from Sanders supporters than from Trump supporters?

I think the way you're trying to frame that is insane.
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Old 24th February 2020, 03:29 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
When it's based on false beliefs (you know, like your own beliefs are) you can be damn well assured I'll challenge you on it with facts.

Get over it.
When Sanders supporters do it it's whining and hero worship.
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Old 24th February 2020, 05:50 PM   #301
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Quick question for the Berners...

Should the U.S. have even one SIFIWP?

ETA: Examples.
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Old 24th February 2020, 07:38 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Not particularly, I just wondered what you really meant by "broad support" and "put this silly thing to rest."

I'd've expected you meant something more than yet another ~1/3 plurality.

Overwhelming support from female voters*?



*cuckoo-crazy or otherwise ....
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Old 24th February 2020, 07:54 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You are right, that does seem to be the general idea. I guess that's why Trump chose a veep with Democratic Socialist leanings to balance his own brand of right-wing Republicanism.

For some reason, it appears to be logical to right-wingers that the right-wing candidate is always the best choice: as presidential candidate, as vice-presidential candidate etc. In fact, it appears to be as logical as calling all right-wingers moderates.

That is how you persuade anybody to vote for you: Go right-wing moderate! Don't ever vote for a candidate who promises what the majority of working people want - like Sanders and Turner! That's full-blown Stalinism! Health care for everybody, free education, a wage that enables you to live at least a modest life, gun control, gender equality, an end to racial discrimination ... you name it. Stalinism - pure and simple!
No, Trump did balance the ticket! He is a multiply divorced adulterous vulgarian who wanted to keep the evangelical wing on board. He didnít double down on someone who was the same as him; he chose someone with anti-abortion, anti-LGBT, religious cred that he did not have himself.
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Old 24th February 2020, 10:03 PM   #304
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What is the argument for Sanders when it comes to managing an organization of a couple million people? What is the argument that he is good at that?
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Old 25th February 2020, 04:38 AM   #305
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I'll just note again how strange it seems to me as a non-American that someone can run for election as a member of a political party and that said party has absolutely no say in it. Hitler could run as a Democrat and the Democratic party couldn't actually say "nope" and prevent him from running.
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Old 25th February 2020, 05:12 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
So the Dems (I've never been one) are given a clear choice between losing to an incumbent Republican (something they've bounced back from time and again in the last few decades) and allowing DemSoc entryists to take over the party and steer it indefinitely.

Which one of these two options is "killing themselves," politically?
Consider carefully who you are calling an entryist or outsider. Sure, Sanders isn't a party loyal. But many of his voters are. Sanders isn't winning these races by bringing a bunch of lefties out of the woods. There just aren't enough of these people for that. The people voting for Sanders are Democrats. They are the people that the party needs in order to operate.

It's a two party system. Democrats, like the Republicans, are trying to vie for enough of the population to establish themselves as the majority of Congress and to hold the Presidency.

Whether the Democratic establishment likes it or not, there is a growing population of voters who are ideologically progressive. Either that means DemSoc, or just existing in the wide progressive space to the left of the fairly conservative Democratic mainstream.

These people exist in high enough numbers that they now feel they should have a greater voice in the party. Hell, their candidate is currently on the track to win the nomination, which would mean that they should have the largest voice in the party.

The party can either accept that there has been a shift in the political ideology, or they can cling to their older model and an ever shrinking, powerless minority.

The days of telling a tiny population of progressives to go vote Green and still winning elections as a Democrat are over. The Party needs the progressives. The progressives are willing to cooperate with the centrists, but that means recognition and a seat at the table.
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Old 25th February 2020, 05:14 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see the Bernie Bros are in full "Down With All Who Criticise Dear Leader" mode.
Yes, complaining about a hypothetical brokered convention that would install a candidate with only a 20% minority support over a much more popular candidate is cult-like fanaticism. You busted me.
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Old 25th February 2020, 05:16 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I'll just note again how strange it seems to me as a non-American that someone can run for election as a member of a political party and that said party has absolutely no say in it. Hitler could run as a Democrat and the Democratic party couldn't actually say "nope" and prevent him from running.

No, he couldn't! He couldn't even run as an independent.
United States presidential eligibility (Wikipedia)
However, you should consider selling the idea to Hollywood. I would be a great comedy!


ETA: No, wait! It occurs to me that it's already been done. All Hollywood needs to do is adapt the German version:

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Look Who's Back (Amazon DVD)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 25th February 2020 at 05:27 AM.
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Old 25th February 2020, 05:18 AM   #309
Belz...
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Quick question for the Berners...

Should the U.S. have even one SIFIWP?
You can never have enough sci-fi channels.
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Old 25th February 2020, 05:35 AM   #310
dann
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Consider carefully who you are calling an entryist or outsider. Sure, Sanders isn't a party loyal. But many of his voters are. Sanders isn't winning these races by bringing a bunch of lefties out of the woods. There just aren't enough of these people for that. The people voting for Sanders are Democrats. They are the people that the party needs in order to operate.

The people voting for Sanders are not only Democrats. They are moderate Democrats.
Healines like these are lies:

Bernie Sanders’ momentum picks up after Nevada win, and moderate Democrats are worried (Market Watch, Feb. 23, 2020)
Bernie Sanders' rise has moderate Democrats wondering if it's too late to stop him (CNN, Feb. 25, 2020)

Moderate Democrats aren't worried. They are voting for Sanders. However, right-wing Democrats are definitely worried, but please call them what they are.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 25th February 2020, 05:37 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The people voting for Sanders are not only Democrats. They are moderate Democrats.
Healines like these are lies:

Bernie Sandersí momentum picks up after Nevada win, and moderate Democrats are worried (Market Watch, Feb. 23, 2020)
Bernie Sanders' rise has moderate Democrats wondering if it's too late to stop him (CNN, Feb. 25, 2020)

Moderate Democrats aren't worried. They are voting for Sanders. However, right-wing Democrats are definitely worried, but please call them what they are.
Indeed. The panic mongering about Bernie is coming from party managers, but not from the voters that make up the party. Shocking enough, the interests of the managerial class is different from the people they supposedly represent.
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Old 25th February 2020, 05:38 AM   #312
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lol moderate Democrats
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Old 25th February 2020, 05:40 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
lol moderate Democrats
True, we should call them Conservatives.
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Old 25th February 2020, 05:44 AM   #314
dann
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Quote:
Sanders’s critics have long ignored the reality that the senator from Vermont is popular with grassroots Democrats of all backgrounds. Not only is he the most popular member of the Senate, but he also has the highest net favorables of any presidential candidate with Democratic voters. He also happens to be the candidate who the biggest proportion of Democrats “expect” to prevail against Trump. As Peter Beinart noted in The Atlantic last week, “Across the ideological spectrum, ordinary Democrats like Bernie Sanders.”
Finally, Can We All Agree? Everything We Were Told About Bernie Sanders Was Wrong (The Intercept, Feb. 24, 2020)

I think it's time that alleged centrist, moderate Democrats come clean: They don't really want to beat Trump!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th February 2020, 05:50 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
lol moderate Democrats
One really wonders what you're doing on this forum, man.
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Old 25th February 2020, 06:05 AM   #316
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This is a wonderful presentation of the reaction of the mainstream media to Bernie Sanders' victory in the first three primaries; clips with James Carville and Chris Matthews.
The similarity with alleged centrists in this thread is not coincidental!

Late Night with Seth Meyers: Bernie Sandersí Rise Prompts Media Meltdown, Establishment Panic (Feb. 25, 2020)

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It contains a short clip from MSNBC:
Quote:
Take a look here among self-described moderate or conservative Democrats. Thatís a third of this electorate in Nevada. This is what youíre seeing. Sanders is actually leading.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th February 2020, 06:06 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
One really wonders what you're doing on this forum, man.

The same thing Russian bots appear to be doing with U.S. elections ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th February 2020, 06:16 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The days of telling a tiny population of progressives to go vote Green and still winning elections as a Democrat are over. The Party needs the progressives. The progressives are willing to cooperate with the centrists, but that means recognition and a seat at the table.
I don't think cooperation is really on the table here.

Either the traditional Dems will fall in line behind the revolution or else they will face backlash and shaming of the sort I've become quite used to receiving from Bernie fans whenever I dare question anything about his programs or person. What do you think will happen to Democratic Congresspersons who don't commit to fund $1 trillion annually to eliminate carbon emissions, $5 trillion for jobs guarantees and health care for all, 500 billion to replace tuition at public universities, and so forth? I cannot be certain, but I've seen a meme on point.
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Old 25th February 2020, 06:20 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I don't think cooperation is really on the table here.

Either the traditional Dems will fall in line behind the revolution or else they will face backlash and shaming of the sort I've become quite used to receiving from Bernie fans whenever I dare question anything about his programs or person. What do you think will happen to Democratic Congresspersons who don't commit to fund $1 trillion annually to eliminate carbon emissions, $5 trillion for jobs guarantees and health care for all, 500 billion to replace tuition at public universities, and so forth? I cannot be certain, but I've seen a meme on point.
I didn't know Bernie was personally responsible for graffiti in Berkeley. Neato.

You're damn right Bernie is going to hold these people's feet to the fire for the ****** votes they make. The party has been drifting steadily right for decades, and the working people have suffered for it. Democrats have been far too happy to cosign the transition of our wealthy nation into an second gilded age. It's about time for elected officials to be held accountable for that.

As far as what will happen to them. I suppose they might face a vigorous primary challenge from a progressive, in the model of AOC. Not exactly fire and brimstone damnation.
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Old 25th February 2020, 06:21 AM   #320
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I'm getting the impression that much like Trump himself Bernie is less candidate then a reckoning, a punishment put upon us for not being "X" enough. In this case not being progressive enough.
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