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Tags 2020 elections , Bernie Sanders , presidential candidates

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Old 25th February 2020, 06:28 AM   #321
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm getting the impression that much like Trump himself Bernie is less candidate then a reckoning, a punishment put upon us for not being "X" enough. In this case not being progressive enough.
"Mon Dieu!" wept le compte du Biden, "Why do the peasants not see their health is less important than the profits of MBNA?"

"They must be afflicted by madness," replied le duc du Bloomberg, "Let them be stopped and frisked, that will cure them."
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Old 25th February 2020, 06:29 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I don't think cooperation is really on the table here.

Either the traditional Dems will fall in line behind the revolution or else they will face backlash and shaming of the sort I've become quite used to receiving from Bernie fans whenever I dare question anything about his programs or person. What do you think will happen to Democratic Congresspersons who don't commit to fund $1 trillion annually to eliminate carbon emissions, $5 trillion for jobs guarantees and health care for all, 500 billion to replace tuition at public universities, and so forth? I cannot be certain, but I've seen a meme on point.

Yes, finally the tables are starting to turn ...

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Old 25th February 2020, 06:45 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, finally the tables are starting to turn ...

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And, as Democrats, our solution is to run a pointless exercise in losing an election. Thereby validating the conditions these people face.

Smooth move.

"Better no change at all than incremental improvement". can be our rallying cry.
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Old 25th February 2020, 06:50 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
And, as Democrats, our solution is to run a pointless exercise in losing an election. Thereby validating the conditions these people face.

Smooth move.

"Better no change at all than incremental improvement". can be our rallying cry.
If you keep rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic you're bound to eventually hit upon the configuration that will stop it from sinking!
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Old 25th February 2020, 07:00 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If you keep rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic you're bound to eventually hit upon the configuration that will stop it from sinking!
I guess that after 80 years of rearranging the deck chairs it must be time to give up then, as it has accomplished so little.
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Old 25th February 2020, 07:03 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I guess that after 80 years of rearranging the deck chairs it must be time to give up then, as it has accomplished so little.
The Titanic made it all the way to Newfoundland, so it did pretty well. The people who left it at that point didn't consider its overall performance which was at worst a B+.
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Old 25th February 2020, 07:27 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
And, as Democrats, our solution is to run a pointless exercise in losing an election. Thereby validating the conditions these people face.

Are you thinking of 2016? Then I guess you're right. Many of you learned nothing from that experience and would like to see a repeat performance. You would probably even want Clinton to run again.
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Old 25th February 2020, 07:39 AM   #328
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It's not up to the Democrats to pander to you or yours. If you want Trump gone, it's up to you go get off your ass and vote in November. Stop whining about your prefered candidate getting low delegate counts.
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Old 25th February 2020, 07:42 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Are you thinking of 2016? Then I guess you're right. Many of you learned nothing from that experience and would like to see a repeat performance. You would probably even want Clinton to run again.
Nope.
I was adamantly opposed to running Clinton in 2016. She was nearly a guaranteed loss, IMO, as Sanders is this time.
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Old 25th February 2020, 07:49 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I didn't know Bernie was personally responsible for graffiti in Berkeley.
He's not, but it is a handy (hypberbolic) shorthand for the contempt I've seen Bernie progressives express for mainstream liberals on a daily basis in my social feeds. As such, it serves to make me skeptical of offers of cooperation, a stance which you have validated here.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You're damn right Bernie is going to hold these people's feet to the fire for the ****** votes they make. The party has been drifting steadily right for decades, and the working people have suffered for it. Democrats have been far too happy to cosign the transition of our wealthy nation into an second gilded age. It's about time for elected officials to be held accountable for that.

As far as what will happen to them. I suppose they might face a vigorous primary challenge from a progressive, in the model of AOC. Not exactly fire and brimstone damnation.
Okay, so by "progressives are willing to cooperate with the centrists" what you really mean to say is that centrists need to get on board with progressives or expect to be turfed out.

While I believe you believe this, it's hard for me to understand why you expect this will actually work out in practice. Democrats took the house by flipping nearly twoscore purple districts in 2018, and you expect those novice Congresspersons to (1) win again in 2020 and (2) stop catering to their ideologically mixed constituencies just a few months later after the political revolution assumes power in D.C.
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Old 25th February 2020, 07:55 AM   #331
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"Gawd Democrats why are you being so difficult about voting for your own reckoning? Vote Sanders in so he can fix how screwed up you are!"
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Old 25th February 2020, 07:56 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What is the argument for Sanders when it comes to managing an organization of a couple million people? What is the argument that he is good at that?
The same as it is for Trump, Obama, and any other president: It's not a necessary qualification. That's what the army of civil servants and career bureaucrats is for.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:00 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Gawd Democrats why are you being so difficult about voting for your own reckoning? Vote Sanders in so he can fix how screwed up you are!"
Who's saying that?
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:05 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Who's saying that?
That, my friend, is called a paraphrase.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:07 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
He's not, but it is a handy (hypberbolic) shorthand for the contempt I've seen Bernie progressives express for mainstream liberals on a daily basis in my social feeds. As such, it serves to make me skeptical of offers of cooperation, a stance which you have validated here.
Twitter isn't real life. I enjoy social media brain-rot as much as the next guy, but don't fool yourself into thinking it's a representative slice of the American public.



Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Okay, so by "progressives are willing to cooperate with the centrists" what you really mean to say is that centrists need to get on board with progressives or expect to be turfed out.

While I believe you believe this, it's hard for me to understand why you expect this will actually work out in practice. Democrats took the house by flipping nearly twoscore purple districts in 2018, and you expect those novice Congresspersons to (1) win again in 2020 and (2) stop catering to their ideologically mixed constituencies just a few months later after the political revolution assumes power in D.C.
The DNC will have to become a bigger tent. AOC didn't win in a purple state, she won in a Democratic stronghold. In securely blue states, there's no reason why a strong progressive candidate can't win, and I expect to see more of that. Clearly Pelosi fears this, because she's using her power to discourage primary challenges from the left in safe blue states.

Sure, purple states may continue to elect centrist and conservative dems.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:07 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That, my friend, is called a paraphrase.
Which much like sarcasm and comic exaggeration is something that I just made up and am the only one who has ever used.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:14 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Gawd Democrats why are you being so difficult about voting for your own reckoning? Vote Sanders in so he can fix how screwed up you are!"
They're actually being pretty accommodating about it. I don't know if you have been paying attention to the primary results...
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:15 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The same as it is for Trump, Obama, and any other president: It's not a necessary qualification. That's what the army of civil servants and career bureaucrats is for.
I reject the notion that a President is a figurehead only.
Unlike a "poster girl", a President has an actual defined "Job" to perform. Managing that army of bureaucrats seems to be a pretty primary duty of that job.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:17 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
They're actually being pretty accommodating about it. I don't know if you have been paying attention to the primary results...
Yes. %65 are choosing someone who is not Sanders.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:17 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because Bernie's the only one with a goddamn obsessed fanclub.
"I am compelled to attack because I expect them to defend" is... interesting... as an explanation of why one would be so attacky. But it doesn't address the specific point at hand: not just that your anti-Bernie rants exist in general but the specific nature of the one I was reacting to. You picked a topic which describes other candidates as well as him and pretended it's unique to him, thus proving that you don't even really care about that subject; just anything you can find sitting around to pick up and throw at Bernie will do.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't have to defend myself when I don't gush over how wonderful and perfect Biden or Warren is.
Going after one person for something that describes several is defending/supporting the others.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I say crap about the other candidates all the time.
So you say whenever you get called on things like this. If it were true, things like this wouldn't exist for you to get called on.

Just let the whole "I'm not on any side, I'm in a lofty neutral outside above-it-all position that nobody else can share with me" thing go. Having preferences in politics is fine. Not having them wouldn't put you above us and us beneath you, and even if it would, simply claiming to be up there wouldn't make it so. There's nothing wrong with admitting them. Just don't use such clearly invalid arguments to try to prop them up and expect those arguments' invalidity not to be pointed out.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see the Bernie Bros are in full "Down With All Who Criticise Dear Leader" mode.
Now would be a good time to point out where these vicious horrible monstrous attacks are.

Hint: Pointing out when the opponent's arguments are false or hypocritical or use a dobule-standard or other logical fallacy doesn't count as being mean. It's just how debates & arguments go, and if you don't want your arguments' falsehoods pointed out, it's up to you to not use false arguments (such as the "I can't dispute them on the real issues so I'll just resort to calling them meanies" one).

Continuing to avoid issues by going after people instead, with accusations of how your targets are supposedly going after people when that's who's raising the issues you're avoiding by going after those people instead with your accusations that they're going after people by focusing on issues too much for you, will continue to be... unimpressive.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Quick question for the Berners...

Should the U.S. have even one SIFIWP?

ETA: Examples.
The idea that such a thing would exist certainly feels wrong, but I don't want to decide policies by gut feelings, and I don't have a detailed mathy analysis that proves we're worse off with them than we would be without them in some way. And since they just naturally tend to develop on their own, any legislation to prevent that would need to be taking an active role in disrupting the natural processes somehow, which I don't object to on principle but would worry about unintended side-effects. So overall, a bill to try to get rid of them would not excite me either for or against it at first, until I heard more about the details and projections from people who know better than me.

The main real problem with SIFIs/SIBs/TBTFs is not that they exist (during good economic times) but that they make crashes worse & more likely and they skew government's range of choices in how to respond. But the main thing I'm sure I'd want to see done to prevent or at least soften crashes is better regulation against what is essentially gambling among the big banks. And that kind of regulation can be done even if the would-be gamblers continue to exist.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm getting the impression that much like Trump himself Bernie is less candidate then a reckoning, a punishment put upon us for not being "X" enough. In this case not being progressive enough.
In both cases, it's not paying enough attention to the needs & wants of the commoners.

Last edited by Delvo; 25th February 2020 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:21 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Yes. %65 are choosing someone who is not Sanders.
Who is that someone?
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:22 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If you keep rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic you're bound to eventually hit upon the configuration that will stop it from sinking!

The upholstery is important, too! And maybe a couple of throw pillows. And if you make sure that all first-class passengers have at least two deckchairs, a few three-legged stools will almost certainly trickle down to the third-class passengers. Then at least they'll have something to cling on to when the tickets to the lifeboats sell out ...
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:22 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Which much like sarcasm and comic exaggeration is something that I just made up and am the only one who has ever used.
Who is it a paraphrase of? Someone in this thread?
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:27 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Yes. %65 are choosing someone who is not Sanders.
Who is that someone?

One of the talk-show hosts presented the composite character, but I don't remember which one.
But it's true! Amyzabeth Bidigieg might stand a chance against Sanders!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 25th February 2020, 08:35 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I reject the notion that a President is a figurehead only.
Unlike a "poster girl", a President has an actual defined "Job" to perform. Managing that army of bureaucrats seems to be a pretty primary duty of that job.
It's not much incentive to carry on a conversation, if you go straight to binary extremes and false dichotomies.

Anyway, Obama lacked the kind of experience we're talking about, and he managed alright. It's not like you disqualified him in 2008 due to his profound lack of large scale management experience.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:37 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Who is that someone?
If every candidate besides Buttigieg and Sanders dropped out tomorrow, who would get the nomination?
Same for Warren*?
Biden?
Klobuchar, even?

They are not defeating Senders , because their vote is divided- but it is all against him.

*Warren, maybe not. she appears more moderate than she is right now because she is of the "not Bernie" group.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:38 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not much incentive to carry on a conversation, if you go straight to binary extremes and false dichotomies.

Anyway, Obama lacked the kind of experience we're talking about, and he managed alright. It's not like you disqualified him in 2008 due to his profound lack of large scale management experience.
And yet, experience with large-scale management would have made him a more attractive candidate.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:43 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
If every candidate besides Buttigieg and Sanders dropped out tomorrow, who would get the nomination?
Same for Warren*?
Biden?
Klobuchar, even?

They are not defeating Senders , because their vote is divided- but it is all against him.

*Warren, maybe not. she appears more moderate than she is right now because she is of the "not Bernie" group.
Any evidence that these people wouldn't support Bernie as their #2 candidate?
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:46 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
One of the talk-show hosts presented the composite character, but I don't remember which one.
Seth Meyers.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:46 AM   #350
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
And yet, experience with large-scale management would have made him a more attractive candidate.
Maybe. Anyway, I said it's not necessary. You agree it's not necessary. You don't consider Obama to have been a mere figurehead. Neither do I. My impression is that we are in vehement agreement here.

I also agree that it's usually a major Nice To Have feature in a candidate. But that's not the same as a Must Have feature. There are actually very few Must Haves for the presidency. Most of what people consider to be Must Haves actually varies quite a bit, from candidate to candidate, election to election, and voter to voter.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:46 AM   #351
dann
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
If every candidate besides Buttigieg and Sanders dropped out tomorrow, who would get the nomination?
Same for Warren*?
Biden?
Klobuchar, even?

They are not defeating Senders , because their vote is divided- but it is all against him.

*Warren, maybe not. she appears more moderate than she is right now because she is of the "not Bernie" group.

Yes, of course. Everybody who voted for Buttigieg, Warren, Biden and Klobuchar swore an oath that if their preferred candidate drops out of the race, they will never, ever, vote for Sanders, right?


ETA: Ninja'ed by SuburbanTurkey, post 348.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 25th February 2020, 08:50 AM   #352
dann
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Seth Meyers.

You're right. At 3:07 ff:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

However, it's not so much a composite character as a Siamese triplet!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:51 AM   #353
dann
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Quote:
Bernie Sanders dominating in Nevada. Sanders not only taking the Silver State but besting his rivals among Latinos, winning both men and women, college and non-college graduates, and even scoring votes from moderates.

Bernie Surges & Biden Spins a South African Arrest Tale | The Daily Show (Feb. 25, 2020)
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:52 AM   #354
Belz...
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You're right. At 3:07 ff:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

However, it's not so much a composite character as a Siamese triplet!
Yeah I was disappointed they couldn't CGI-merge them into a single face.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:02 AM   #355
dann
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Chris Matthews has apologized, sincerely, it appears, to Bernie Sanders for his WW2 Nazi analogy:

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I AGREE

Matthews is obviously a much better guy than the current president ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:32 AM   #356
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
He's not, but it is a handy (hypberbolic) shorthand for the contempt I've seen Bernie progressives express for mainstream liberals on a daily basis in my social feeds.
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Twitter isn't real life. I enjoy social media brain-rot as much as the next guy, but don't fool yourself into thinking it's a representative slice of the American public.
I wasn't talking exclusively (or even mostly) about Twitter, and I certainly was not characterizing the American public in general. I am thinking about people I've met IRL (mostly at freethought conventions and atheist meetups) who openly disdain the non-Bernie wing of the Democratic Party.

Here is an example from a public post by a moderately public figure within secular activism:


Of course atheist activists aren't a representative slice of the American public, however, they are the reason why I've been exposed to this sort of black-and-white progressive moralism on a regular basis. I've seen no reason to believe Bernie will not consider himself accountable to his most fiercely uncompromising supporters, first and foremost.
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Old 25th February 2020, 10:44 AM   #357
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not much incentive to carry on a conversation, if you go straight to binary extremes and false dichotomies.

Anyway, Obama lacked the kind of experience we're talking about, and he managed alright. It's not like you disqualified him in 2008 due to his profound lack of large scale management experience.
But turning out to be good at something that could have gone either way sounds like a terrible strategy.
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Old 25th February 2020, 10:46 AM   #358
theprestige
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But turning out to be good at something that could have gone either way sounds like a terrible strategy.
I'm not following your train of thought. What would have been a better strategy for Obama?
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Old 25th February 2020, 11:26 AM   #359
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not following your train of thought. What would have been a better strategy for Obama?
I mean better strategy as an individual assessing someone's suitability for the position of president.
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Old 25th February 2020, 11:34 AM   #360
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I’m coming around to liking Bernie OK as the others fail to get traction. The three B’s have their own electability problems. Bernie’s ideology doesn’t really bother me IF he turns out to be willing to compromise to improve things. Why not take a hard-left line, if every single Democrat will be painted the same way?

I hate to say this but I think Warren’s being a woman might hurt her. Americans haven’t had a Margaret Thatcher or Angela Merkel to get us over the “female head of state” hump. In general I think she’s more wonky than Sanders and I mean that in a good way. When she puts forth a “radical” plan she probably recognizes that it’s a starting point, not a line in the sand. But anyway, how much harder left is “Medicare for All” compared to Medicare itself? Still I don’t think banning private insurance is a winner. We have a framework in place with the ACA. I do think you need the mandate for it to work and the SC has signed off on that. It would take years to responsibly roll out M4A.

Klobuchar on a Bernie ticket? Wouldn’t that reassure a lot of people?

Bernie apparently has the “it” factor. The analogies to 2016 almost write themselves. I don’t find Trump in the least charismatic but obviously he is to many people and evidently the same is true of Sanders.

His health doesn’t really concern me. My mom has been doing fine on coronary stents for about 15 years now. How long did Bernie’s parents live?
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