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Tags 2020 elections , Bernie Sanders , presidential candidates , socialism

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Old 25th February 2020, 08:07 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You don't have to go that far. All you need to do - for the sake of the US as well as the rest of the world - is to vote blue, not matter who.
Problem solved, then.

All we gotta do is vote blue, and we can enjoy the same results we had last time we stuck to that plan.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:09 AM   #362
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:09 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Problem solved, then.

All we gotta do is vote blue, and we can enjoy the same results we had last time we stuck to that plan.
Ok, so voting blue is a route to Lose-ville. What else? Uhm... maybe on the way to the poll, jack a Trump voter's car? I dunno what you want really.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:09 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Problem solved, then.

All we gotta do is vote blue, and we can enjoy the same results we had last time we stuck to that plan.
But this is totally different because with Bernie we can count on a wave of far left, progressive, even socialist support in... let me check my notes here... Wisconsin.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:10 AM   #365
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It is kinda amusing seeing how people are genuinely getting nervous with Bernie.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:13 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But this is totally different because with Bernie we can count on a wave of far left, progressive, even socialist support in... let me check my notes here... Wisconsin.
Looking at the polls, it appears that Sander's is on average tied with Trump in Wisconsin. The only Democrat that leads Trump in the average is Biden. Everyone else loses to Trump according to the polls. Sounds like when it comes to Wisconsin, Biden would have the most chance, closely followed by Sanders. Biden is just a single point ahead, mind you, and unless he pulls of a miracle, he's out of the race soon enough.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:19 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You don't have to go that far. All you need to do - for the sake of the US as well as the rest of the world - is to vote blue, not matter who.
Will you?
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:20 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
It is kinda amusing seeing how people are genuinely getting nervous with Bernie.
Well at least they're telling us why they're getting nervous.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:23 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Guess wrong about what exactly? Face it, moderate and even conservative Democrats vote for Sanders.
Guess wrong about why a "moderate" Democrat would not want Sanders to be the nominee.

Moderates want healthcare for all, a dignified life for all, safety, health, and a clean environment, as well as non adversarial relationships with the world community. Same as "Progressives".
Moderates don't want Sanders this time because his loss in the General election will put us further away from those things.

The Progressives seem to be threatening to hold their breath until they turn blue unless these things happen right now!!, which we moderates feel is a strategy guaranteed to bring us nothing.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:25 AM   #370
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Chris Matthews apologizes for comparing Bernie Sanders electoral success in NV to the Nazi invasion of France.

He reads his heartfelt apology with all the enthusiasm of a hostage video.

https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/s...94806773583874
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:25 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Guess wrong about why a "moderate" Democrat would not want Sanders to be the nominee.

Moderates want healthcare for all, a dignified life for all, safety, health, and a clean environment, as well as non adversarial relationships with the world community. Same as "Progressives".
Moderates don't want Sanders this time because his loss in the General election will put us further away from those things.

The Progressives seem to be threatening to hold their breath until they turn blue unless these things happen right now!!, which we moderates feel is a strategy guaranteed to bring us nothing.
Progressives don't have to hold their breath. Sanders is - as of this moment - winning. The people protesting appear to be the moderate Democrats. I don't see them threatening to vote for Trump (yet), but they are certainly preaching doom and gloom.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:27 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I wish I could at least get the Bernie Bros to admit that things like his "Comrades" opening and his "Castro was not a bad guy" 60 minutes routine is something he has to cut out.

What's the left wing equivalent of 'winding up the libs'?
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:29 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Looking at the polls, it appears that Sander's is on average tied with Trump in Wisconsin. The only Democrat that leads Trump in the average is Biden. Everyone else loses to Trump according to the polls. Sounds like when it comes to Wisconsin, Biden would have the most chance, closely followed by Sanders. Biden is just a single point ahead, mind you, and unless he pulls of a miracle, he's out of the race soon enough.
The Polls that are being pointed at to convince us that Sanders is the candidate to carry the rust-belt don't show much more than a point or two difference in his favor either.

Somehow that is supposed to convince us that he can carry those States ?

We should negate everything we know and feel about what kind of reception Sanders will get in these close States because he does 1 point better than Liz Warren in a poll taken 8 months before the General ?

By the time the polls catch up with reality, it may be too late to change horses. Leaving us with another "popular vote" victory-and four more years of the Trumpster.

In answer to the OP.
YES! We (Democrats) should fear Bernie.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:32 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Progressives don't have to hold their breath. Sanders is - as of this moment - winning. The people protesting appear to be the moderate Democrats. I don't see them threatening to vote for Trump (yet), but they are certainly preaching doom and gloom.
Four months ago Biden was winning.
Should we not have lined up behind him at that point?

If not, why not?
Because factors other than early polls made it apparent that he can't deliver the goods, maybe?
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:33 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
In answer to the OP.
YES! We (Democrats) should fear Bernie.
Okay, who do you think would perform better in the general election?

Could you pick a name, please?
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:40 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I wish I could at least get the Bernie Bros to admit that things like his "Comrades" opening and his "Castro was not a bad guy" 60 minutes routine is something he has to cut out.
He is just handing the GOP free ammo with that.
He has to get that he needs to appeal to an audience beyond his "Progressive" base.
So pointing out that Batista's illegitimate 81 year old daughter had her savings wiped out by the financial crisis and is now homeless living in a Ft. Lauderdale park would be bad, right?

https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/...0629-0022.html
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:47 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Progressives don't have to hold their breath. Sanders is - as of this moment - winning.
Winning against other Democrats; not against Trump.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:51 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Well, since that's not going to happen - partly because the Democratic party can't control the actions of primary voters, and it appears more Democratic primary voters want Bernie than anyone else - what else should be done?
Nothing should be done. It's supposed to be democracy, for Pete's sake! If Sanders is the nominee and he looses, then so be it. The people then wants four more Trump years. Yes, maybe not a majority, but hey, that's the voting system you have.

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Old 25th February 2020, 08:53 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Okay, who do you think would perform better in the general election?

Could you pick a name, please?
Buttigieg
Klobuchar
Biden*
Warren
Bloomberg

I prefer Warren, although she would have a tougher time of it than some of the others, but I think Sanders is the least likely to be able to win, by a wide margin.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:20 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I think Sanders is the least likely to be able to win by a wide margin.
Specifically because he will alienate part of the electorate, you mean?
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:23 AM   #381
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Question

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Winning against other Democrats; not against Trump.
Surely these centrists who keep accusing progressives of planning to sit out the election if a centrist candidate is chosen would not themselves do the same thing and not vote for a progressive candidate if he or she were chosen? Why, that would mean all these pleas for unity were hypocritically one-sided! Surely not.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:24 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Surely these centrists who keep accusing progressives of planning to sit out the election if a centrist candidate is chosen would not themselves do the same thing and not vote for a progressive candidate if he or she were chosen? Why, that would mean all these pleas for unity were hypocritically one-sided! Surely not.
I'm sorry; what's the connection with my post, there?
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:25 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Winning against other Democrats; not against Trump.
And this is thing I keep saying and the Bernie Bros keep alternating between looking at me like I'm crazy or launching a Jihad against me for speaking out against their King.

Asking people already on your side which out of options X,Y, and Z they like the best is an indescribably different question then asking everyone (on your side, not on your side, on the fence, disinterested entirely, etc) which out of options X, Y, Z and the totally outside context of the first question other choice they have they like best.

Bernie Sander's ability to be really popular with democrats (even ignoring that we're mistaken loud passion for broad popularity) is like the single less meaningful metric we could have right now.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:29 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm sorry; what's the connection with my post, there?
I thought you were pointing out that Sanders is winning vs other Democrats but not Trump, and therefore if he were the candidate he'd be at risk of losing. One way that would happen is if the Democrat voters who don't like Sanders don't vote for him. Which is something we hear Sanders supporters frequently accused of planning in regards to the other Democrats.

I wasn't accusing you of thinking that, btw, I was just iterating a thought that occurred based on your post.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:33 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And this is thing I keep saying and the Bernie Bros keep alternating between looking at me like I'm crazy or launching a Jihad against me for speaking out against their King.

Asking people already on your side which out of options X,Y, and Z they like the best is an indescribably different question then asking everyone (on your side, not on your side, on the fence, disinterested entirely, etc) which out of options X, Y, Z and the totally outside context of the first question other choice they have they like best.

Bernie Sander's ability to be really popular with democrats (even ignoring that we're mistaken loud passion for broad popularity) is like the single less meaningful metric we could have right now.
...A candidate's popularity with the voters shouldn't factor into the candidate selection process?
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:38 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Specifically because he will alienate part of the electorate, you mean?
Because he will alienate what will be the key portion of the electorate.

Texas will still go red. California blue.

Sanders will cost us PA, MI, and likely even WI.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:40 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Which is something we hear Sanders supporters frequently accused of planning in regards to the other Democrats.
Well because it's true, not something we made up to make the Sanders supporters look bad.

Only 53% of Bernie Sanders supporters definitely "Will" vote for Biden, Warren, Buttigieg, Bloomberg, or Yang if Bernie Sanders does not get the nomination. Other then the now mostly off the radar Yang (who's supporters polled at a similar only 50% will definitely vote for another candidate) that number is massively outside the other candidates, which all range from 78% to 90% reporting that they definitely will vote for another candidate if their preferred choice doesn't get the nomination.

The evidence is on the side of the idea that Bernie Supporters are playing "My way or the highway" not us. Which is why it's so frustrating to keep having to stop the debate every other post to reaffirm our loyalty to the "Orange Man Bad" ideal.

*https://www.newsweek.com/andrew-yang...c-poll-1485241
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:42 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well because it's true, not something we made up to make the Sanders supporters look bad.

Only 53% of Bernie Sanders supporters definitely "Will" vote for Biden, Warren, Buttigieg, Bloomberg, or Yang if Bernie Sanders does not get the nomination. Other then the now mostly off the radar Yang (who's supporters polled at a similar only 50% will definitely vote for another candidate) that number is massively outside the other candidates, which all range from 78% to 90% reporting that they definitely will vote for another candidate if their preferred choice doesn't get the nomination.

The evidence is on the side of the idea that Bernie Supporters are playing "My way or the highway" not us. Which is why it's so frustrating to keep having to stop the debate every other post to reaffirm our loyalty to the "Orange Man Bad" ideal.

*https://www.newsweek.com/andrew-yang...c-poll-1485241
Then it looks like you ought to hope for Sanders to be the candidate. Unless there's a "complain your way to victory" path unlocked somehow.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:44 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Because he will alienate what will be the key portion of the electorate.

Texas will still go red. California blue.

Sanders will cost us PA, MI, and likely even WI.
How accurate were your state-by-state prophecies in 2016? I think you ought to link to them if you want us to accept your expertise in the field.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:44 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I thought you were pointing out that Sanders is winning vs other Democrats but not Trump, and therefore if he were the candidate he'd be at risk of losing. One way that would happen is if the Democrat voters who don't like Sanders don't vote for him. Which is something we hear Sanders supporters frequently accused of planning in regards to the other Democrats.

I wasn't accusing you of thinking that, btw, I was just iterating a thought that occurred based on your post.
Right, ok. But no, I wasn't implying that people would refrain from voting for him out of spite or anything, just that him winning in the primaries doesn't mean he'll win in the general.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:47 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Then it looks like you ought to hope for Sanders to be the candidate.
Pragmatically, yes, but doesn't that say something about progressive voters?
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:47 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Right, ok. But no, I wasn't implying that people would refrain from voting for him out of spite or anything, just that him winning in the primaries doesn't mean he'll win in the general.
You weren't implying it, but I think others have been. The ones who keep complaining of "Bernie Bros", and "progressives". I think some of them will stay home sulking if Sanders is the candidate.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:48 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Quote:
Because he will alienate what will be the key portion of the electorate.
Texas will still go red. California blue.
Sanders will cost us PA, MI, and likely even WI.
How accurate were your state-by-state prophecies in 2016? I think you ought to link to them if you want us to accept your expertise in the field.
I think the problem is that in 2016, people weren't really LOOKING at state-wide polling, at least not in enough detail to see what was actually happening.

Now, those states are going to be examined under a microscope.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:48 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
How accurate were your state-by-state prophecies in 2016? I think you ought to link to them if you want us to accept your expertise in the field.
Is there a way to find my posts from 2016?
let me know how, and I will show you some examples.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:49 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Pragmatically, yes, but doesn't that say something about progressive voters?
That they figured out how our political system works? If you think someone's gaming the rules you should change the rules, not bitch about being outmaneuvered because you didn't adopt the strategy first.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:49 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You weren't implying it, but I think others have been. The ones who keep complaining of "Bernie Bros", and "progressives". I think some of them will stay home sulking if Sanders is the candidate.
Maybe, and I disagree with that from them just as much as I do from Sanders supporters. The priority should be to reverse the conservative gains, not push progressive agendas; that can be done later.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:49 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Then it looks like you ought to hope for Sanders to be the candidate. Unless there's a "complain your way to victory" path unlocked somehow.
The problem is the "If I don't get my way I'm taking my ball and going home" side isn't large enough to win us the general election. And it lets them spin their stubbornness into a "Therefore we have to do it our way" argument.

You aren't stupid. You know what winning a battle that loses you the war (or reduces your chances of winning the war so I don't have to hear "OMG U KAN'T NO THAT 4 CERTAIN!") means.

There's a difference between using the Primaries to gauge popularity; both inside and outside the Democratic party, and acquiescing to a "It's my way or the highway" faction.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:51 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You weren't implying it, but I think others have been. The ones who keep complaining of "Bernie Bros", and "progressives". I think some of them will stay home sulking if Sanders is the candidate.
See this is what I'm talking about. Despite the fact that the Sander voters provably are the ones saying that, I have to keep defending myself against accusations that's what I'm going to do, so I have to stop every other post to again reaffirm that yes I understand that the orange man is bad and any alternative is better.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:51 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Quote:
Only 53% of Bernie Sanders supporters definitely "Will" vote for Biden, Warren, Buttigieg, Bloomberg, or Yang if Bernie Sanders does not get the nomination....that number is massively outside the other candidates, which all range from 78% to 90% reporting that they definitely will vote for another candidate if their preferred choice doesn't get the nomination.
Then it looks like you ought to hope for Sanders to be the candidate.
Thus we have learned the following lesson:

Extortion works.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:54 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Thus we have learned the following lesson:

Extortion works.
Finally! It only took what, ten thousand years of civilization to learn that? I think there may be a naive cloistered nun or a four year old who hasn't learned it yet.
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