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Tags 2020 elections , Bernie Sanders , presidential candidates , socialism

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Old 14th February 2020, 09:30 PM   #121
portlandatheist
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Someone concerned about Socialism in the US should be up in arms about Trump's gifts to farmers.
I'm up in arms about it. It's a huge mess. My biggest critisism for Trump and Sanders has always been their protectionism.
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Old 15th February 2020, 03:59 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I do tire of explaining to daft Europeans why these programs work in Western Europe and not the US, or Congo, or Namibia, or Papa New Guinea, or Uganda, Cameroon.
We know. The problem is that black people exist.

I take this argument as seriously as it deserves.
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Old 15th February 2020, 04:06 AM   #123
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Imagine spending more on healthcare than the military! The horror!
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Old 15th February 2020, 05:01 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Imagine spending more on healthcare than the military! The horror!
The only way out is through. New healthcare plan:

All money to the military. We will reach universal coverage when every citizen of the country is employed by Raytheon or some other war profiteer and gets covered by the company policy.
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Old 15th February 2020, 05:02 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Really? They can have medical care for everybody in the UK, Canada, Japan, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, France, etc. etc. etc, but not in the richest country on the planet? We need to stop protecting the insurance companies, Big Pharma, big medicine and start protecting the average American.

I don't agree with Sanders on free tuition or his stance on Nuclear power, but I absolutely agree in Medicare for all.
Also they spend a lot less than the USA. I hope the PBS documentaries Sick Around America and Sick Around the World were shown in lots of schools when they came out. If I was a teacher in the US, I'd be sure to show them to all my classes, especially the one about other countries' health care systems.
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:02 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
We know. The problem is that black people exist.

I take this argument as seriously as it deserves.
Liberia has nearly the exact same constitution and system of government as the US yet has completely different outcomes.

I'd love a daft European "why dont usa use my brilliant gouvernmente programmes" to explain why.

Last edited by Baylor; 15th February 2020 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:03 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Also they spend a lot less than the USA. I hope the PBS documentaries Sick Around America and Sick Around the World were shown in lots of schools when they came out. If I was a teacher in the US, I'd be sure to show them to all my classes, especially the one about other countries' health care systems.
Clearly, you know nothing about US schools.
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Old 15th February 2020, 03:51 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Liberia has nearly the exact same constitution and system of government as the US yet has completely different outcomes.

I'd love a daft European "why dont usa use my brilliant gouvernmente programmes" to explain why.
It's those darn black people that are the problem.
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Old 15th February 2020, 05:12 PM   #129
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For contrast, I've just come across this scientific paper which has come to the conclusion that the US adopting a single-payer healthcare model would save the country $450b a year: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...40673619330193

I think it makes sense that it would ultimately save money, because without an insurance model you wouldn't have to factor in paying the insurance. It's cutting out an entire for-profit industry.

Probably wouldn't work in the US, though, because black people exist.
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Old 15th February 2020, 05:36 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Enforcement and Removal. Only 25,000,000 problems to go.
Which doesn't need its own agency to do. Kinda feel we are going in circles here because your only argument is "gotta kick out the brown people."

Quote:
I'm not sure why you think these stupid questions have any relevancy to anything whatsoever. You can say this about anything.

"Branson, Missouri Police Department deals with homicide cases. FBI also deals with homicide cases. So why do you need the FBI?"
FBI investigate homicide cases that have a Federal component, such as when a killer is operating over State Lines and so one local Authority can't investigate the case as a whole. They don't swan on into every murder case in the country.

ICE and the DEA are both tasked with the same job as far as drugs coming into the country. Why spend money doubling up on tasks?

Quote:
I am extremely aware you are in absolutely no position to determine which department oversees which US Federal Agency. If I were a pseudo intellectual I'd say "Dunning Kruger Effect!" But I'm not so I won't. My guess it has more to do with the culture of this forum, and the skeptic community at large. It's common place here to let bizarre and off-the wall comments to go ignored, as long as the person is trying to appear "rational" and "knowledgeable" and that his "ideas" will solve complex problems that he doesn't understand.
I see you are resorting to your general move. When you don't have facts, use
Ad Hominem attacks instead.

Quote:
ETA: There is no such federal law enforcement agency with the initialism "BCP" I wouldn't even mention it if you hadn't done it repeatedly, and are trying to appear knowledgeable by Wikipedia skimming. I could make a snark joke about it for some internet points but I'll simply put that it makes it even more obvious that you don't have what it takes to even discuss this topic.
Yeah so my slight Dyslexia is playing up and I mistyped CBP as BCP, clap clap you for, have an internet for failure to make any substantial points.
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Old 15th February 2020, 05:49 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
For contrast, I've just come across this scientific paper which has come to the conclusion that the US adopting a single-payer healthcare model would save the country $450b a year: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...40673619330193

I think it makes sense that it would ultimately save money, because without an insurance model you wouldn't have to factor in paying the insurance. It's cutting out an entire for-profit industry.

Probably wouldn't work in the US, though, because black people exist.
You have to understand though, it's a fundamental principle that the right in the US have that it's their money and they would rather pay a capitalist business huge amounts of money to rip them off and provide insubstantial coverage with huge upfront costs in co-pays and prescriptions, where if their local doctor and hospital is covered year to year is up to the whims of strangers whose only real interest in how much profit they can make, and where if you have to go to an out of network provider or get something that isn't covered, you'll have enough medical bills to bankrupt you, rather than having a small tax increase and getting full medical coverage anywhere in the US, regardless of State, hospital, or Doctor, at no extra charge. Oh, especially when it means that brown coloured people get it too, because we know how white Americans react when they see a bunch of brown people who are economically well off and not reliant on white people.
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Old 15th February 2020, 05:56 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Which doesn't need its own agency to do. Kinda feel we are going in circles here because your only argument is "gotta kick out the brown people."
You just counted those "brown people" in your percentage in the "white population" of the US. There's really no point in having a discussion with you it's boring. Just link to the HuffingtonPost article you got this stupid argument from, that ICE is somehow redundant, cause you're not explaining the reasoning in any meaningful way.

Last edited by Baylor; 15th February 2020 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 15th February 2020, 05:58 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You just counted those "brown people" in your percentage in the "white population" of the US. If you were aware how bad you look, you'd probably put the keyboard down. There's really no point in having a discussion with you it's boring. Just link to the HuffingtonPost article you got this stupid argument from, that ICE is somehow redundant, cause you're not explaining the reasoning in any meaningful way.
And more Ad Hominem attacks, I guess that is all that is left for you when beating the table doesn't work, right?
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:06 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
And more Ad Hominem attacks, I guess that is all that is left for you when beating the table doesn't work, right?
Are Centrals Americans white?

If no, why did you include them in your "white population" percentage?
If yes, why are you calling them brown?
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:07 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post

ICE and the DEA are both tasked with the same job as far as drugs coming into the country. Why spend money doubling up on tasks?
FBI also investigates drug coming into the country. Why aren't you saying to get rid of the FBI?
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:20 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
ICE and the DEA are both tasked with the same job as far as drugs coming into the country. Why spend money doubling up on tasks?
FBI and CIA often share concurrent tasks. Why aren't you saying to get rid of the FBI? Or CIA? Why don't you want to link to the article where you got these stupid arguments?
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:25 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Are Centrals Americans white?

If no, why did you include them in your "white population" percentage?
If yes, why are you calling them brown?
Are North Americans white?
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:27 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You should all visit Copenhagen! We have public executions of capitalists in my local park every Saturday afternoon, but only from May 1 to Sep. 30. It's too dark and cold to venture outside the rest of the year.

Public executions are so 1940's.

In my mother country, we send all of our capitalists up to Tuktayuktuk on the 18th day of December each year, force them to walk the plank onto an ice floe, and then shove them out to the Arctic Ocean with nothing but a whale bone knife and a small spool of sinew.

We're at least humanitarian enough to give our capitalist (ick spit spit) criminals a fighting chance for survival.

My fellow comrade.... surely you can come up with a kinder, gentler way of dealing with these traitors?

Praise be to our beloved Joseph!
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:28 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
FBI also investigates drug coming into the country. Why aren't you saying to get rid of the FBI?
Originally Posted by FBI
What is the FBI doing about drug trafficking?
The FBI has determined that the most effective means of combating this crime is to use the enterprise theory of investigation, which focuses investigations and prosecutions on entire criminal enterprises rather than on individuals. Through this process, all aspects of the criminal operation can be identified. The theory supports not only the prosecution of the criminal enterprise, but also the seizure of the enterprise’s assets and is intended to disrupt or dismantle entire criminal organizations. In our cases, we typically work closely with the Drug Enforcement Administration and through Organized Crime and Drug Enforcement Task Forces around the country.
Oh dear... nice try, but still not there are we....
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:33 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
FBI and CIA often share concurrent tasks. Why aren't you saying to get rid of the FBI? Or CIA? Why don't you want to link to the article where you got these stupid arguments?
You are aware that the FBI is a Law Enforcement Agency while the CIA is an Intelligence gathering agency, right?
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:41 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Are North Americans white?
The white ones are.
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:42 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You are aware that the FBI is a Law Enforcement Agency while the CIA is an Intelligence gathering agency, right?
This doesn't answer the question.
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:43 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I think it makes sense that it would ultimately save money, because without an insurance model you wouldn't have to factor in paying the insurance. It's cutting out an entire for-profit industry.

Probably wouldn't work in the US, though, because black people exist.
This is probably the biggest impediment to getting UHC passed. You can't just tell people in those industries that "we're going to put a lot of people out of business." I'm not a policy wonk but the reason I prefer Warren to Sanders is that she's probably done the math on how to *transition* to M4A (Who Want It?) if an entire industry is going to be phased out. It's not enough IMO to talk or even just think along the lines of creative destruction and let the chips fall where they may. You need an off ramp and an on ramp. But this election is not supposed to be about policy, I've been told. I think that's wrong, somehow.

I mean, I can see wanting to just wipe the slate clean and deciding what the heck, let's put up Bernie. But in a way that's just as faith-based as what evangelical groups might push. There needs to be a plan for an emerging industry of professional health-care advocates to make sure sick people are getting reasonable care. I guess I'm talking about social workers, which doesn't sound to sexy. But I think we'll have to find some hybridized kludge to make the transition, and IMO it looks a lot like Obamacare.
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:43 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Oh dear... nice try, but still not there are we....
This also does not answer the question.
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:54 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The white ones are.
One would assume the same with Central Americans too then, though clearly to certain people, because they are Hispanic, that means that even if they were, they aren't.
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:58 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
This doesn't answer the question.
It does, just not the way you want.

Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
This also does not answer the question.
Again, it does, just not in the way you want.

However, short and to not further derail. US LE should be coalesced under fewer organisations across the board, not just ICE. But this is well off topic here. I'd be happy to discuss in in a US Law Enforcement thread if you want.
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:58 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You're so tangled in a mess it's not surprise you can't even defend your assertions and resort to Red Herrings. So far you've claimed: Hispanics are white and only white but also brown. ICE is redundant because they work with other federal agencies, but other agencies that work together are not redundant, for some reason.
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Old 15th February 2020, 07:00 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It does,
No it doesn't.



Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
, it does
No it doesn't

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
In short and to not further derail. US LE should be coalesced under fewer organisations across the board, not just ICE. But this is well off topic here. I'd be happy to discuss in in a US Law Enforcement thread if you want.
Even shorter, no they shouldn't.
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Old 15th February 2020, 07:22 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
For contrast, I've just come across this scientific paper which has come to the conclusion that the US adopting a single-payer healthcare model would save the country $450b a year: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...40673619330193

I think it makes sense that it would ultimately save money, because without an insurance model you wouldn't have to factor in paying the insurance. It's cutting out an entire for-profit industry.

Probably wouldn't work in the US, though, because black people exist.
Actually, it wouldn’t work in the US because of two reasons: one is physicians entering the field do so around a hundred thousand dollars in debt due to med school. The second reason is lawyers. In the US, one can sue and win for damn near anything, so physicians pay enormous fees in malpractice insurance each year. UHC would dramatically reduce the amounts physicians earn. Not many people would be keen to spend many years and such large amounts of money to become physicians if their yearly salary was going to be 40k or 50k.

I’ve long said the precursor to UHC is giving away the education in exchange for a certain number of years working as a government physician. Moreover, tort reform must be achieved prior to any UHC being instituted. Since 95% of US politicians are lawyers, well, you see the likelihood of this happening any time soon.

There are reasons it wouldn’t work in the US, but black people have nothing to do with it.
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Old 15th February 2020, 10:15 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You're so tangled in a mess it's not surprise you can't even defend your assertions and resort to Red Herrings. So far you've claimed: Hispanics are white and only white but also brown. ICE is redundant because they work with other federal agencies, but other agencies that work together are not redundant, for some reason.
None of are actually my claims and I bet you can't actually quote my saying any of them either. Nice straw-manning though. Do you have anything other than fallacies?
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Old 16th February 2020, 05:39 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
Actually, it wouldn’t work in the US because of two reasons: one is physicians entering the field do so around a hundred thousand dollars in debt due to med school. The second reason is lawyers. In the US, one can sue and win for damn near anything, so physicians pay enormous fees in malpractice insurance each year. UHC would dramatically reduce the amounts physicians earn. Not many people would be keen to spend many years and such large amounts of money to become physicians if their yearly salary was going to be 40k or 50k.

I’ve long said the precursor to UHC is giving away the education in exchange for a certain number of years working as a government physician. Moreover, tort reform must be achieved prior to any UHC being instituted. Since 95% of US politicians are lawyers, well, you see the likelihood of this happening any time soon.
I agree that there are institutional problems in the US that would also need to be fixed before it became fully viable. I don't think anybody believes it could be implemented without thought or hitch tomorrow.

The point is that the argument that it would be more expensive isn't necessarily sound.

Quote:
There are reasons it wouldn’t work in the US, but black people have nothing to do with it.
I've been following Baylor's posts for a while. I've gathered that pretty much every problem in the world can be attributed to the fact that black people exist.
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Old 16th February 2020, 06:05 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I've been following Baylor's posts for a while. I've gathered that pretty much every problem in the world can be attributed to the fact that black people exist.

In particular racism! If it weren't for the black and brown people, racists would have no reason to be racists!
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Old 16th February 2020, 06:32 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Which doesn't need its own agency to do. Kinda feel we are going in circles here because your only argument is "gotta kick out the brown people."
Also a twist on the modern identity politics we all love so much, this time in the form of "you're not American/you're European, so I won't listen to you" .
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Old 16th February 2020, 06:51 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Bernie's been in government for a few decades now. He seems like a nice guy who's never been able to do much with his ideas.

But happens if he wins? What happens if all of his ideas suddenly are backed by major power?

Millenials don't remember the evils of Socialism but many Gen Xers and Boomers do. We remember the Gulags, the Berlin Wall, the Khmer Rouge, the barbed wire, the purges, the brutally put down revolutions.
This is either parody or you are truly clueless about what socialism is. I suggest you look up Clement Attlee and the Labour Government of 1945, who frankly was far more to the left than Bernie ever will be.
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Last edited by Garrison; 16th February 2020 at 06:52 AM.
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Old 16th February 2020, 07:47 AM   #155
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The "Beatles" sing Bernie's campaign song. I would say it's right on point.

https://www.citizenfreepress.com/bre...ll-bobs-money/
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Old 16th February 2020, 07:50 AM   #156
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Just for the **** of it:

Quote:
Millenials don't remember the evils of Socialism
True dat. I've never heard of any of the things you listed. Except maybe barb wire, that used to rip up my clothes when I climbed that fence after crossing the crop on my shortcut home from school.

Quote:
We remember the Gulags
Yes, people sent to camps is usually a bad thing. Not unique to socialism, though, nor a part of the definition of socialism. Who in the US should even be put in gulags? Except from Trump, of course?

Quote:
the Berlin Wall
...which was built to stem brain drain from East Berlin, not because the East Germans just up and decided that because they were socialists, they had to build a wall. As anyone who lives under the Trump regime should know, walls aren't unique to socialsm, nor is it a defining characteristic of socialism. Next.

Quote:
the Khmer Rouge
What about them? Do you think they just arbitrarily decided they needed to start a reign of terror because they identified as socialists (they were communists, but why let facts get in the way of some good fear-mongering), or because such catastrophies are a tenet of socialism?

Quote:
the barbed wire
Some sort of gif is appropriate here, not sure which one, though.

Quote:
the purges
You saved the best for last, I see. Yes, there were purges in the Soviet Union and in Red China. They were dreadful. For some reason you don't see them wherever you see socialism, welfare states, or other kinds of mixed economies, though.

Quote:
the brutally put down revolutions.
See above.
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Old 16th February 2020, 08:12 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The "Beatles" sing Bernie's campaign song. I would say it's right on point.

https://www.citizenfreepress.com/bre...ll-bobs-money/
I like how this is supposed to be a devastating dis track, and yet all it actually says is "people will be better off under Bernie Sanders", and the audience insert is saying "but they don't deserve to be, unlike me!"

Should cause anybody who thinks it's at all funny to go: Hang on...

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Old 16th February 2020, 12:47 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I do tire of explaining to daft Europeans why these programs work in Western Europe and not the US, or Congo, or Namibia, or Papa New Guinea, or Uganda, Cameroon.
It is a constant source of amusement to me when US conservatives explain American “exceptionalism” by explaining how similar the US is to third world countries.
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Old 16th February 2020, 01:18 PM   #159
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Fareed Zakaria on Bernie Sander's magical thinking on climate:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Fareed is right to call out Sanders on this. We can look at other countries and see who has and who hasn't been successful at reducing carbon emissions. Germany has invested a huge amount in renewables but they've basically hit a brick wall. in 2016, they installed 4% more name plate capcity solar energy but solar contributed 3% less energy than the prior year. They installed 11% more wind power but received 2% less electricity from wind. What would happen if they doubled their name plate capcity of renewable energy? very little at this point. The US isn't anywhere close to this brick wall yet but we will be eventually if we go down the same road. Fareed makes the point that our swith from coal/oil to natural gas is the biggest factor in our reduction of CO2 emissions. Solar energy accounted for 3% of our reduction of CO2 emissions. Sanders plan is magical thinking.
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Old 16th February 2020, 01:56 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
None of are actually my claims and I bet you can't actually quote my saying any of them either. Nice straw-manning though. Do you have anything other than fallacies?
Those are your claims so own up to them. You're so caught up in trying to win an argument on the internet you don't even know what it is you're arguing. Your ignorance of US politics is apparent. You're not involved in the US federal apparatus, nor do you have a relationship with anyone who is. You are not American or live in the US. You skim wikipedia and other web pages and to appear "knowledgable." Then you expect us to take your "ideas" seriously about restructuring US federal agencies. Take it somewhere else.
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