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Tags 2020 elections , Bernie Sanders , presidential candidates , socialism

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Old 16th February 2020, 01:58 PM   #161
Baylor
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
It is a constant source of amusement to me when US conservatives explain American “exceptionalism” by explaining how similar the US is to third world countries.
Childless Europeans do the same thing. Why do you think the US looks so third worldy....

hint..hint...
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Old 16th February 2020, 03:51 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Fareed Zakaria on Bernie Sander's magical thinking on climate:
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I AGREE

Fareed is right to call out Sanders on this. We can look at other countries and see who has and who hasn't been successful at reducing carbon emissions. Germany has invested a huge amount in renewables but they've basically hit a brick wall. in 2016, they installed 4% more name plate capcity solar energy but solar contributed 3% less energy than the prior year. They installed 11% more wind power but received 2% less electricity from wind. What would happen if they doubled their name plate capcity of renewable energy? very little at this point. The US isn't anywhere close to this brick wall yet but we will be eventually if we go down the same road. Fareed makes the point that our swith from coal/oil to natural gas is the biggest factor in our reduction of CO2 emissions. Solar energy accounted for 3% of our reduction of CO2 emissions. Sanders plan is magical thinking.

Magical thinking is not at all involved in this case. If you want to see magical thinking in this context, you will have to go to Trump's claims that windmills cause cancer.
Fareed Zakaria is an idiot. He might reasonably have claimed that Bernie Sanders' plans were unrealistic, but the major problem with that claim is that he compares them with a situation where the current administration is doing its utmost to repress investments in wind and solar power.

In Denmark we have much more wind power than sun power! Here are the numbers: Wind power in Denmark (Wikipedia - because Baylor hates it!)
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Old 16th February 2020, 04:08 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Childless Europeans do the same thing. Why do you think the US looks so third worldy....

hint..hint...
Yes, I can see how childless Europeans would be amused by Americans equating their own country with the third world. Europeans with children also.

I have not said I think the US looks “so third worldly”. That was your comparison.

What is “hint.. hint...”?
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Last edited by Steve; 16th February 2020 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 17th February 2020, 02:27 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
What is “hint.. hint...”?
I think we're back to black people ruining everything again.
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Old 17th February 2020, 02:38 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Those are your claims so own up to them.
No, they are your straw-man versions of my arguments, and you know it because even though I literally dared you to quote me saying any of the things you claim I did, guess what, not a single quote, just more Ad Hominens.

When you have clearly lost the argument that's what you do, resort to fallacies and personal attacks, and that is all you have left here.
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Old 17th February 2020, 02:41 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
No, they are your straw-man versions of my arguments, and you know it because even though I literally dared you to quote me saying any of the things you claim I did, guess what, not a single quote, just more Ad Hominens.
Ok

Hispanics are white according to Phantomwolf:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
We are less white than the US is (71.76% vs 73%)
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Missed this...

2017 US American Community Survey Data

One Race: White - 73%

2018 New Zealand Census

Ethnic Group: European - 71.76%

Yeah, laughable.
Hispanics are brown according to Phantomwolf:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It's a rather simply question, but I'm guessing that you don't have an answer beyond "But they kick out the brown people!"
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Which doesn't need its own agency to do. Kinda feel we are going in circles here because your only argument is "gotta kick out the brown people."
Yeah, laughable.

Last edited by Baylor; 17th February 2020 at 02:45 AM.
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Old 17th February 2020, 02:45 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Ok

Hispanics are white according to Phantomwolf:




Hispanics are brown according to Phantomwolf:
Care to the point to the word "Hispanics" in any of that?
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Old 17th February 2020, 02:52 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Care to the point to the word "Hispanics" in any of that?
Uh.....it's in the link you provided dude.
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Old 17th February 2020, 02:56 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Uh.....it's in the link you provided dude.
did I write the page listed?
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Old 17th February 2020, 02:59 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
did I write the page listed?
What you did do, in a ham-fisted attempt to win an argument over the Internet, was claim Hispanics are white in this post:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Missed this...

2017 US American Community Survey Data

One Race: White - 73%

2018 New Zealand Census

Ethnic Group: European - 71.76%

Yeah, laughable.
Then claim then they are brown in this post:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It's a rather simply question, but I'm guessing that you don't have an answer beyond "But they kick out the brown people!"
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Old 17th February 2020, 03:25 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
What you did do, in a ham-fisted attempt to win an argument over the Internet, was claim Hispanics are white in this post
*sigh* I can see by your lack of reading comprehension ability that I'm going to have to type this really slowly for you. See if you can keep up.

No, the census data post had nothing to do with Hispanics being white, and nothing to do with Hispanics at all.

This is the exchange....

Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Garbage in, Garbage out. Most countries in western Europe are Socialist Democracies, and are doing just fine. And are freer and more democratic than the USA.
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Those are white countries.
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
We are less white than the US is (71.76% vs 73%) in our little Social Democracy down here, and yet we're listed in the top Ten Countries for Freedom, Lack of Corruption, Democracy, and Global Peace. Might be something wrong with your ideas considering all things.
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Your numbers are laughably wrong.
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Missed this...

2017 US American Community Survey Data

One Race: White - 73%

2018 New Zealand Census

Ethnic Group: European - 71.76%

Yeah, laughable.
Yeah, see, nothing about Hispanics there at all.

Now I will admit, quite happily, that there are Hispanics in the 73% White Americans number, the link notes that when it says that White (Non-Hispanics) are 61.5%.

But who is it making the claim as to if they are white or not here. Well since the data posted is from the 2017 US American Community Survey Data, then it is Americans self reporting. 73% of Americans consider themselves as White.

What however was never claimed here, either by me, nor by Americans themselves, was what you claim I said, which was that "All Hispanics were white." You made up that straw-man, just as you made up that the figures were referring to Hispanics.

Quote:
Then claim then they are brown in this post:
Again it seems that you really need help in comprehending simple English, so let's do this, slowly so you can keep up.

I never claimed that "All Hispanic people are brown." See those funny marks about the last part of that sentence? They are called speech marks. They indicating quoting or referring to things other people say.

In the case of saying that certain arguments boiled down to "But they kick out the brown people!" is was clearly referring to the beliefs of a certain subset of Americans who clearly seem to believe that 12.5% of Americans that have Hispanic heritage and consider themselves white, aren't actually white, but are brown because of their Hispanic Heritage, regardless of how white they look or consider themselves.

You know, kind of like people that when it's pointed out that 73% of Americans consider themselves to be white respond with things like

Quote:
Your numbers are laughably wrong.
Because they only accept the 61.5% figure as being white.
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Old 17th February 2020, 11:47 AM   #172
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Would Bernie, as Prez, have the power to drive the country in whatever direction he commanded? Or would the real world exert a braking force?

Most politicians' proposed policy is (or at least was) in effect aspirational until sufficient inspiration and motivation is engendered to bring it about. Like Kennedy's goal to get to the Moon in a shockingly short time. Many probably initially thought it couldn't be done. Aim high, and surprising things can be accomplished. Think like a defeatist, endure mediocrity.

Take health care for all and restrictions on guns. All other democracies have advanced on these fronts a long time ago. The US citizens' reply when a Presidential candidate proposes to catch up with the world? "It can't work here; we're different and exceptional!" Or when the candidate would strive to be a world leader on combatting climate change? "Too hard! Too expensive!"

It's shocking the degree to which the 'Moon Shot' nation has given in to "Can't be done."
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Old 17th February 2020, 12:06 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post

But who is it making the claim as to if they are white or not here. Well since the data posted is from the 2017 US American Community Survey Data, then it is Americans self reporting. 73% of Americans consider themselves as White
Because there is no US census race category for Amerindian, Hispanic or Latino. You walked yourself right into this mess and you're trying to dig your way out of but it's not working.

This is what happens when you base your argument on a cursory skimming of Wikipeida. You're not understanding the context of what you're reading.

You are still at odds with yourself:

ICE kicks out Amerindians/Hispanics/Latinos -- those Phantomwolf calls "brown people."

US is more white than New Zealand, at 73% white, because Amerindians/Hispanics/Latinos are white.


Good luck trying to square that, you can't. Next time don't get yourself into this mess in the first place.

Last edited by Baylor; 17th February 2020 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 17th February 2020, 12:33 PM   #174
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https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/mee...-2020-n1075746

Here's another great reason to fear Bernie. Forty-six percent of voters say they will not vote for Trump and 34 say they will. Seventeen percent say it depends who the Democrats run. That 17 percent isn't voting for Bernie.
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Old 17th February 2020, 12:40 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/mee...-2020-n1075746

Here's another great reason to fear Bernie. Forty-six percent of voters say they will not vote for Trump and 34 say they will. Seventeen percent say it depends who the Democrats run. That 17 percent isn't voting for Bernie.

How do you know?
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Old 17th February 2020, 12:42 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Bernie's been in government for a few decades now. He seems like a nice guy who's never been able to do much with his ideas.

But happens if he wins? What happens if all of his ideas suddenly are backed by major power?

Millenials don't remember the evils of Socialism but many Gen Xers and Boomers do. We remember the Gulags, the Berlin Wall, the Khmer Rouge, the barbed wire, the purges, the brutally put down revolutions.
I'm sorry, it seems like you've misspelled "communism".
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Old 17th February 2020, 12:42 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Bernie's been in government for a few decades now. He seems like a nice guy who's never been able to do much with his ideas.

But happens if he wins? What happens if all of his ideas suddenly are backed by major power?

Millenials don't remember the evils of Socialism but many Gen Xers and Boomers do. We remember the Gulags, the Berlin Wall, the Khmer Rouge, the barbed wire, the purges, the brutally put down revolutions.

Bernie's supporters say "oh no, that wouldn't happen here, this time it will be peaceful, freedom-loving Socialism".

Well I've read the agenda of the DSA, which Bernie is a member of. They want to destroy capitalism, end national borders. They want to put the means of production and industry and wealth into the hands of "The People", which means mass-nationalization of industry, corporations, banks, the engines of commerce.

Every national manifestation of Socialism that the world has ever seen, has been an economic disaster, a human rights disaster, or both. Do we really want to give it another shot????
Bernie and his ilk must be stopped. Trump must win in 2020.
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Old 17th February 2020, 12:52 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Those are white countries.
"Show me where I said I was a white nationalist!"
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Old 17th February 2020, 12:53 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
"Show me where I said I was a white nationalist!"
So you're saying they aren't white countries?
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Old 17th February 2020, 01:02 PM   #180
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For the sake of cohesion of the Democrat party, a Sanders loss might be preferable to perceived Sanders disenfranchising.
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Old 18th February 2020, 11:06 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
For the sake of cohesion of the Democrat party, a Sanders loss might be preferable to perceived Sanders disenfranchising.
Four more years of Trump then
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Old 19th February 2020, 05:03 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Childless Europeans do the same thing. Why do you think the US looks so third worldy....

hint..hint...
More white nationalist postings.
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Old 19th February 2020, 05:05 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
So you're saying they aren't white countries?
No. I said what I wrote, not something else you care to dream up.
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Old 19th February 2020, 05:08 AM   #184
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The coming election isn't about the future of the Democratic party. It's about the future of the US, specifically, if the US is to remain a liberal democracy or move towards an oligarchy.
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:52 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The coming election isn't about the future of the Democratic party. It's about the future of the US, specifically, if the US is to remain a liberal democracy or move towards an oligarchy.
It's a Republic, not a Liberal anything. That's the delusions of folks living in NYC and Southern California. Or so I've been told, but seriously, it's a Constitutional Republic at this point.
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:56 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
It's a Republic, not a Liberal anything.
It would be hard to imagine a more succint sentence that exposes your ignorance of liberal democracy.
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Old 19th February 2020, 09:03 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It would be hard to imagine a more succint sentence that exposes your ignorance of liberal democracy.
I haven't really figured out what the conservative bugaboo is about this whole "republic vs democracy" thing is, but I see it pretty often. Someone will come in with a line like rocky's about how we're a republic, not a democracy like it is some profound statement.

Not really what the point of these proclamations is. I think it goes back to insecurity about Trump losing the popular vote and the broader argument that people are having about the continued legitimacy of the electoral college system, but that's just speculation. More likely it's just some barb meant to smear the target as being uninformed about our government.

Of course, any reasonable person understands that there is no dichotomy between republic and democracy, and that there is significant overlap in the two systems. Even going back to the Founders, our system was described interchangeably as a republic and as a representative democracy.
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Old 19th February 2020, 09:07 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I haven't really figured out what the conservative bugaboo is about this whole "republic vs democracy" thing is, but I see it pretty often. Someone will come in with a line like rocky's about how we're a republic, not a democracy like it is some profound statement.

Not really what the point of these proclamations is. I think it goes back to insecurity about Trump losing the popular vote and the broader argument that people are having about the continued legitimacy of the electoral college system, but that's just speculation. More likely it's just some barb meant to smear the target as being uninformed about our government.

Of course, any reasonable person understands that there is no dichotomy between republic and democracy, and that there is significant overlap in the two systems. Even going back to the Founders, our system was described interchangeably as a republic and as a representative democracy.
As opposed to a Liberal One. There's no such thing, yet Lefties, CP in particular seem to like to make their points under the apparent assumption they speak for everyone.

they don't.
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Old 19th February 2020, 09:07 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Of course, any reasonable person understands that there is no dichotomy between republic and democracy, and that there is significant overlap in the two systems. Even going back to the Founders, our system was described interchangeably as a republic and as a representative democracy.
That's because it's what the word 'Republic' means, unless rocky thinks that it just means "not a monarchy", which would make no sense in this context.

"Oh, we're not a democracy. We're just a not-monarchy."
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Old 19th February 2020, 09:08 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
As opposed to a Liberal One.
What in the blue **** are you babbling about? Modern democracies were founded on liberal principles.

You really should start using words the way they're supposed to be used, rather than how Fox News spins them.
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Old 19th February 2020, 09:17 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What in the blue **** are you babbling about? Modern democracies were founded on liberal principles.

You really should start using words the way they're supposed to be used, rather than how Fox News spins them.
Or the just the classical ones, like Representative Democracy which means elected Representatives, not the Liberal Politically Correct Thought Police Nanny State Supporters.
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Old 19th February 2020, 09:18 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm sorry, it seems like you've misspelled "communism".
Or Darwinian Capitalism also known as Colonialism that Communism was a reaction to.
Even as early as anchent Rome you had Social Reformers like that Crucified Guy, named Jesus.
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Old 19th February 2020, 10:56 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Or Darwinian Capitalism also known as Colonialism that Communism was a reaction to.
Even as early as anchent Rome you had Social Reformers like that Crucified Guy, named Jesus.
Well, that's how the story goes anyway. Probably face a similar fate today if he appeared in the US. Damned commie!
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Old 19th February 2020, 11:03 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Or the just the classical ones, like Representative Democracy which means elected Representatives, not the Liberal Politically Correct Thought Police Nanny State Supporters.
That has nothing to do with what you were talking about. You're equivocating several definitions of "liberal" because you don't want to admit that you made a mistake.
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Old 19th February 2020, 11:04 AM   #195
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I can tolerate everyone's misuse of terminology and misunderstanding of history but please do let's get a grip on capitalization! Lowercase for all terms unless it's a proper name! A republic, democracy, liberal, conservative, upholstery. The Republican Party, a Democrat governor, Romania.
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Old 19th February 2020, 11:15 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Or Darwinian Capitalism also known as Colonialism that Communism was a reaction to.
Even as early as anchent Rome you had Social Reformers like that Crucified Guy, named Jesus.
It's funny, but I don't really think of Imperial Rome as "ancient".

And in Christian canon, Jesus was explicitly *not* a social reformer.
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Old 19th February 2020, 11:35 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That has nothing to do with what you were talking about. You're equivocating several definitions of "liberal" because you don't want to admit that you made a mistake.
No, it doesn't. You are trying to redefine the terms of your argument, rambling discourse that it was.
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Old 19th February 2020, 11:39 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I can tolerate everyone's misuse of terminology and misunderstanding of history but please do let's get a grip on capitalization! Lowercase for all terms unless it's a proper name! A republic, democracy, liberal, conservative, upholstery. The Republican Party, a Democrat governor, Romania.
Grammar Nazi...
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Old 19th February 2020, 11:46 AM   #199
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Grammar Nazi Republican.
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Old 19th February 2020, 11:46 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Grammar Nazi...
Ironically a Nazi, being German, would see no issue with the capitalizations.
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