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Tags 2020 elections , Bernie Sanders , presidential candidates , socialism

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Old 19th February 2020, 11:50 AM   #201
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Ironically a Nazi, being German, would see no issue with the capitalizations.
Hence the term.
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Old 19th February 2020, 12:16 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Bernie's been in government for a few decades now. He seems like a nice guy who's never been able to do much with his ideas.

But happens if he wins? What happens if all of his ideas suddenly are backed by major power?

Millenials don't remember the evils of Socialism but many Gen Xers and Boomers do. We remember the Gulags, the Berlin Wall, the Khmer Rouge, the barbed wire, the purges, the brutally put down revolutions.

Bernie's supporters say "oh no, that wouldn't happen here, this time it will be peaceful, freedom-loving Socialism".

Well I've read the agenda of the DSA, which Bernie is a member of. They want to destroy capitalism, end national borders. They want to put the means of production and industry and wealth into the hands of "The People", which means mass-nationalization of industry, corporations, banks, the engines of commerce.

Every national manifestation of Socialism that the world has ever seen, has been an economic disaster, a human rights disaster, or both. Do we really want to give it another shot????
There is no even half serious candidate in the US who endorses anything even remotely like all the real socialist stuff you mention. They are, at most, social democrats, the kind that have been running half of western Europe for decades.

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Old 19th February 2020, 12:19 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Hence the term.
Congratulations for getting the point exactly backwards.

Do you do it on purpose?
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Old 19th February 2020, 12:39 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's funny, but I don't really think of Imperial Rome as "ancient".

And in Christian canon, Jesus was explicitly *not* a social reformer.
Odd, in the tradition I was raised in (Presbyterian Church of Canada) he was most definitely portrayed as a social justice individual. Especially, since the doctrine revolved around man's relationship with society and with the divine. YMMV depending on your tradition, but many of the stories of Jesus do involve him defying social norms for a greater purpose (whether social or religious).
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Old 19th February 2020, 12:49 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Four more years of Trump then
IMO the Senate, even if Republican, will find a way to remove him. It's off-topic here, but it's made me less concerned about Bernie. There are a lot of parallels between Trump and Sanders. Some people scoff at the "lost tribe" concept, but I think there really was a lost tribe of voters who turned out for Trump. The same thing could happen with Sanders IMO.

I don't know if my Trump hypothesis is true, though: How many votes did Trump get from people who don't usually vote? Would be grateful for a cite. It's not impossible that Sanders could increase turnout among younger people.

Four more years of any GOP president might be a problem though.
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Old 19th February 2020, 12:57 PM   #206
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If Sanders gets the nomination and loses, it will be a major blow to the progressive wing of the party.
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Old 19th February 2020, 01:00 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If Sanders gets the nomination and loses, it will be a major blow to the progressive wing of the party.
I think it's safe to say that any Democratic candidate that loses to Trump will badly delegitimize their wing of the party.
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Old 19th February 2020, 01:02 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If Sanders gets the nomination and loses, it will be a major blow to the progressive wing of the party.
Not certain about that.
A "Social Democrat" getting 63,000,000 votes in the U.S. (while losing) would more likely give the progressive wing encouragement.

If we (the more moderate wing) can preach to them that they must achieve their goals incrementally by winning small battles, it seems only fair that they could force us to wait through the disaster of four more Trump years in order to get closer to those same goals.
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Old 19th February 2020, 01:03 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think it's safe to say that any Democratic candidate that loses to Trump will badly delegitimize their wing of the party.
I think this is true for 2016 as well, and for both the Democrats and the Republicans.
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Old 19th February 2020, 01:03 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's funny, but I don't really think of Imperial Rome as "ancient".

And in Christian canon, Jesus was explicitly *not* a social reformer.
I'm curious about that "explicit" part. Where is it made explicit?

It's off-topic, but this thread is pretty much a train wreck anyway.
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Old 19th February 2020, 01:05 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think this is true for 2016 as well, and for both the Democrats and the Republicans.
At 95% approval amongst Republicans, is there another wing to their party besides Trumpsters?
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Old 19th February 2020, 01:08 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
At 95% approval amongst Republicans, is there another wing to their party besides Trumpsters?
I think that's part of the deligimatizing. The non-Trump part of the party totally collapsed after losing to him. Besides the exiled never-Trump holdouts, the non-Trump wing of the party largely ceases to exist.
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Old 19th February 2020, 01:36 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
At 95% approval amongst Republicans, is there another wing to their party besides Trumpsters?
I would have said the Never-Trumpers, but it looks like they're a wing of the Democratic party these days.
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Old 19th February 2020, 06:04 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm curious about that "explicit" part. Where is it made explicit?

It's off-topic, but this thread is pretty much a train wreck anyway.
Jesus isn't a social reformer, he's all about the rich getting richer!

Umm, forget all that about camels and needles.
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Old 19th February 2020, 06:09 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
How do you know?
The swing Trump voter is over 45, Bernie's worst demographic.

Also, socialism just using popular with Americans.

https://www.npr.org/2020/02/19/80704...most-americans

What on his agenda has he ever been successful at? Nothing. He has no track record of success, even when his party controlled the Senate. He can't work with other Democrats, let alone across the aisle.
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Old 19th February 2020, 06:35 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
IMO the Senate, even if Republican, will find a way to remove him.
They will not. They had a chance to do so already. It would only have taken two more GOP Senators to vote to impeach Trump. They did not materialize. They WANT this.
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:19 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I would have said the Never-Trumpers, but it looks like they're a wing of the Democratic party these days.
Perhaps a feather.
An annex, if you prefer.
Certainly not an entire wing.
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Old 20th February 2020, 01:47 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
It's a Republic, not a Liberal anything. That's the delusions of folks living in NYC and Southern California. Or so I've been told, but seriously, it's a Constitutional Republic at this point.
You have no idea what a Liberal Democracy is do you?

You also seem to be unaware that Republics and Democracy are not mutually exclusive because one is a style of Government, and the other is the way that representatives for that Government are chosen.

Republics can be Democracies, and in the case of the US, it is a Liberal Democracy, unless you are about to argue that the US does not have elections between multiple distinct political parties, a separation of powers into different branches of government, the rule of law in everyday life as part of an open society, a market economy with private property and the equal protection of human rights, civil rights, civil liberties and political freedoms for all people. You would also have to argue that the US does not have a codified constitution which delineates the powers of government and enshrines the social contract of the country.

I mean you could argue all of this, but you'd clearly be wrong, just as you are clearly wrong in your understanding of what a Liberal Democracy is (hint hint, it's a Democracy that has all those things above... It's not a Democracy run by Liberals.)
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Old 20th February 2020, 01:56 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's funny, but I don't really think of Imperial Rome as "ancient".
I think that 1,500 years puts it in that category

Quote:
And in Christian canon, Jesus was explicitly *not* a social reformer.
Jesus was a socialist.
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Old 20th February 2020, 02:26 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post



Jesus was a socialist.
More like a Death Cultist ...
but an egalitarian one.
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Old 20th February 2020, 02:34 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
More like a Death Cultist ...
I don't recall the verses where he had the disciples and his followers drink poisoned cool-aide (or wine as the case might be.) Perhaps you can point them out.
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Old 20th February 2020, 03:39 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I don't recall the verses where he had the disciples and his followers drink poisoned cool-aide (or wine as the case might be.) Perhaps you can point them out.
He told his followers to sell all their stuff and stop working because he Endtimes are imminent.
Call it End Times Cult if you prefer, but the teachings of Jesus only work if the world is about to end.
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Old 20th February 2020, 04:31 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
He told his followers to sell all their stuff and stop working because he Endtimes are imminent.
Call it End Times Cult if you prefer, but the teachings of Jesus only work if the world is about to end.
I suggest you point to the exact verses because you seem to be interpreting them differently than I do.
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Old 21st February 2020, 07:35 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I suggest you point to the exact verses because you seem to be interpreting them differently than I do.
The Brick Testament is a great resource.
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Old 21st February 2020, 07:38 AM   #225
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"Well you see Bernie isn't technically a socialist because it's only socialism if it comes from a certain region in Southern France otherwise you have to call it sparkling government overreach because that's what the book that mentions unicorns 9 times said..."

Truly I am blessed to live in such a gilded age of discourse.
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Old 21st February 2020, 07:45 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Well you see Bernie isn't technically a socialist because it's only socialism if it comes from a certain region in Southern France otherwise you have to call it sparkling government overreach because that's what the book that mentions unicorns 9 times said..."

Truly I am blessed to live in such a gilded age of discourse.
On the other hand, "define your terms" is a fairly important early step in logic. If you proceed directly to discoursing without having done that things tend to get muddy.
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Old 21st February 2020, 07:56 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
On the other hand, "define your terms" is a fairly important early step in logic. If you proceed directly to discoursing without having done that things tend to get muddy.
Not when the terms are arbitrary.

The political scale isn't the Periodic Table of Elements. You can't go "Bernie Sanders has an atomic weight of 42 and has 7 electrons in his valence therefore he's a Socialist."

Political terms are fuzzy edged rules of thumb to make discussing social/economic/political opinions/philosophies/stances that often tend to clump together easier, not because they are hard and fast bound rules of the universe that can be declared true by definition.

So the whole "Dismissing through categorization thing" AND people who think everything said about someone is "dismissing them through categorization" shut the discussions down.

"I think Bernie Sander's political stances are good/bad for America and X, Y, Z are my reasons why" have got to be discussable without "Oh so you just hate Bernie because you think it's a socialist oh and here's a totally different person who doesn't understand the difference between socialism and communism I bet you think the same" or any equivalent OR any polar opposite argument.
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Old 21st February 2020, 08:01 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Not when the terms are arbitrary.

The political scale isn't the Periodic Table of Elements. You can't go "Bernie Sanders has an atomic weight of 42 and has 7 electrons in his valence therefore he's a Socialist."

Political terms are fuzzy edged rules of thumb to make discussing social/economic/political opinions/philosophies/stances that often tend to clump together easier, not because they are hard and fast bound rules of the universe that can be declared true by definition.

So the whole "Dismissing through categorization thing" AND people who think everything said about someone is "dismissing them through categorization" shut the discussions down.

"I think Bernie Sander's political stances are good/bad for America and X, Y, Z are my reasons why" have got to be discussable without "Oh so you just hate Bernie because you think it's a socialist oh and here's a totally different person who doesn't understand the difference between socialism and communism I bet you think the same" or any equivalent [i]OR[i] any polar opposite argument.
When the terms are arbitrary is exactly when they most need to be defined. "Clinton is a regressive!" should be answered by "what do you mean by 'regressive'?", not "no, she isn't!" or "so is your hero Pol Pot!" or "your mama didn't complain about regressives when I was wrecking her posterior!"
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Old 21st February 2020, 08:09 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
When the terms are arbitrary is exactly when they most need to be defined. "Clinton is a regressive!" should be answered by "what do you mean by 'regressive'?", not "no, she isn't!" or "so is your hero Pol Pot!" or "your mama didn't complain about regressives when I was wrecking her posterior!"
When why have the terms? There's a difference between a term that has to be clarified in some contexts and a term that has be defined everytime you use it.

If it has to be "I support Candidate McGillicutty because he is a Whig, and I know he is a Whig because he supports policies X, Y, and Z" why not just "I support Candidate McGillicutty because he supports policies X, Y, and Z" and drop the transitive definition in the middle if he has to be clarified in the same breath you assert it?

What's the purpose of a categorization that serves no purpose but the invite the pedants to argue about the categorization?
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Old 21st February 2020, 08:10 AM   #230
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There are dozens of Socialist policies enshrined in US law.

It is not very rational to assume that a few more will suddenly turn the entire country Communist.
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Old 21st February 2020, 08:11 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
When why have the terms? There's a difference between a term that has to be clarified in some contexts and a term that has be defined everytime you use it.

If it has to be "I support Candidate McGillicutty because he is a Whig, and I know he is a Whig because he supports policies X, Y, and Z" why not just "I support Candidate McGillicutty because he supports policies X, Y, and Z" and drop the transitive definition in the middle if he has to be clarified in the same breath you assert it?

What's the purpose of a categorization that serves no purpose but the invite the pedants to argue about the categorization?
Categories do serve purposes. Your objection is to miscategorization, not categorization itself.
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Old 21st February 2020, 08:25 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Categories do serve purposes. Your objection is to miscategorization, not categorization itself.
Because the last 20 years has been an arms race of who can be the most pedantic about whether you have 4 fingers and a thumb or 5 fingers and about how many legs does a dog have if you call a tail a leg and "It's not Champagne, It's Sparking Wine" and so forth and such on and etc.

If we can never be clear/precise enough to appease the pedants with our categorization, we just shouldn't use them. Just refer directly to the context/meaning and cut their ability to stall and troll out from under them.

You've played the game as long as I have. You know damn well no matter how well you word it, how precise you are if you say "X is Y therefore Z" someone, someone will within a metaphysical certainty stop the conversation to argue about with X is Y even if they don't disagree with the core "X therefore Z" argument being made.

You know as well as I do that the world is full of people who, if you walk up to them asking for help because you're dying because a poisonous snake just bit you, will argue that no that's not possible because poisonous means its toxic if you eat, what you really mean is you were bitten by a venomous snake and now it's too late because you're already dead.

So if "X is category Y therefore conclusion Z" will always attract the pedants, just drop it and phrase it as "X therefore conclusion Z." It's the same meaning it just skips over the part that always triggers that subset of humanity that is incapable of not spotting a technicality but totally incapable of realizing it doesn't matter and nobody cares.
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Old 21st February 2020, 08:32 AM   #233
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because the last 20 years has been an arms race of who can be the most pedantic about whether you have 4 fingers and a thumb or 5 fingers and about how many legs does a dog have if you call a tail a leg and "It's not Champagne, It's Sparking Wine" and so forth and such on and etc.

If we can never be clear/precise enough to appease the pedants with our categorization, we just shouldn't use them. Just refer directly to the context/meaning and cut their ability to stall and troll out from under them.

You've played the game as long as I have. You know damn well no matter how well you word it, how precise you are if you say "X is Y therefore Z" someone, someone will within a metaphysical certainty stop the conversation to argue about with X is Y even if they don't disagree with the core "X therefore Z" argument being made.

You know as well as I do that the world is full of people who, if you walk up to them asking for help because you're dying because a poisonous snake just bit you, will argue that no that's not possible because poisonous means its toxic if you eat, what you really mean is you were bitten by a venomous snake and now it's too late because you're already dead.

So if "X is category Y therefore conclusion Z" will always attract the pedants, just drop it and phrase it as "X therefore conclusion Z." It's the same meaning it just skips over the part that always triggers that subset of humanity that is incapable of not spotting a technicality but totally incapable of realizing it doesn't matter and nobody cares.
I don't see a need to abandon sense just to anticipate potential internet persnickertyness. Using clear language and reasonably explaining what one means is preferable to adopting whatever hyperbolic bizzarery is the fashion of a subset of a subset of random maniacs. If you are writing sense, do it sensibly. Don't cast it in the trappings of nonsense just because you think it'll be easier to fight about. And if you're writing nonsense, ask yo mama about regressives.
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Old 21st February 2020, 08:44 AM   #234
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't see a need to abandon sense just to anticipate potential internet persnickertyness. Using clear language and reasonably explaining what one means is preferable to adopting whatever hyperbolic bizzarery is the fashion of a subset of a subset of random maniacs. If you are writing sense, do it sensibly. Don't cast it in the trappings of nonsense just because you think it'll be easier to fight about. And if you're writing nonsense, ask yo mama about regressives.
I'm not talking about clarity, I'm talking about precision and that's an arms race we can never win.

Language pedants always fall back on "clarity." But nobody in the history of this or any other possible universe has ever encountered a double negative or a grocer's sign that said "Ten Items or Less" instead of "Ten Items or Fewer" and been unable to figure out the meaning. As always "If you understand it well enough to correct it, you obviously understood it."

Same thing here. Saying "I like or dislike Sanders because he's a socialist because he thinks X, Y, Z" isn't dependent on some technically perfect, mathematically precise usage of the term ""Socialist" but I refer you to "Every discussion about Sanders ever" that I would like to enter into evidence as proof that's every discussion of Sanders will always be about.
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Old 21st February 2020, 12:04 PM   #235
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If Sanders gets the nomination and loses, it will be a major blow to the progressive wing of the party.
It will be a major blow to the country and probably the world.
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Old 21st February 2020, 12:26 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The swing Trump voter is over 45, Bernie's worst demographic.

Also, socialism just using popular with Americans.

https://www.npr.org/2020/02/19/80704...most-americans

What on his agenda has he ever been successful at? Nothing. He has no track record of success, even when his party controlled the Senate. He can't work with other Democrats, let alone across the aisle.
Add to that his honeymoon in Russia and his comments favoring Castro...

https://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-...inistas-220550
Quote:
BuzzFeed News posted the video, which originally aired on Channel 17/Town Meeting Television, in June 2015. Sanders remarked that people "forgot that [Castro] educated their kids, gave their kids healthcare, totally transformed the society.”
And the part we didn't see yet:
Quote:
Hillary Clinton dismissed Sanders' explanation [that he was really talking against Reagan's interventionism] and noted that in an unaired portion of the same interview, Sanders remarked upon the "revolution of values" occurring in those countries.
We should not fear Bernie, we should fear him losing to Trump.
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Old 21st February 2020, 01:04 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
They will not. They had a chance to do so already. It would only have taken two more GOP Senators to vote to impeach Trump. They did not materialize. They WANT this.
They do want it. They are trying to ride on Trump's coattails. So they couldn't afford to cross him in the run-up to senatorial elections. I think it will be a different ballgame afterward. It's a conspiracy theory of mine and off-topic here.

And are you not aware that it would have taken 66 (or maybe 67) senators to convict and remove him? He was already impeached; that happened in the House.
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Old 21st February 2020, 08:03 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
And are you not aware that it would have taken 66 (or maybe 67) senators to convict and remove him? He was already impeached; that happened in the House.
Two more senators would have established witnesses and rules of a trial, and more importantly wrested control away from McConnell.

I keep hearing that the GOP is going to turn on Trump any day now, they hate him, really they do, and <X> is going to backfire on Trump because it'll finally be too far and they'll find some way kick him out, except that it never happens and they can't even muster up the courage to defy him in the smallest possible way.

They are either collaborators or cowards. Either way, they're complicit.
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Old 21st February 2020, 08:32 PM   #239
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It will be a major blow to the country and probably the world.
I think there is a diminishing return to Trump's destructive power.
For starters, Trump has used up the pool of people willing to get into legal trouble for him.
And since he can't run for a third term, no career Republican will support him beyond what helps them. They won't want to go down with his ship in the 2022 midterms.
Trump will certainly become more transparently corrupt and desperate to shield himself from legal consequences, which puts him in a weak position with the Democrats.

I think that it is far more important to win the Senate than the White House in 2020.
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Old 21st February 2020, 10:30 PM   #240
llwyd
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Has this been mentioned:

https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallp...ssay-explained

I mean in the proper context is not very shocking, just clumsy writing in a completely different era, but it's such lovely red meat for the republican propaganda machine, and they probably have not mentioned it even once... They really, really want Bernie as the opponent - and one can imagine how this will play in the puritan heartland. But who knows what will and what will not work these days. The merest whiff of a whiff of Russian interference would have sunk any candidate in two seconds in the past years while these days it's totally fine if it's done for a republican.

Last edited by llwyd; 21st February 2020 at 10:33 PM.
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