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Old 27th February 2020, 07:15 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post

"Hello, this is Mark from the Bernie Sander office. I'm calling about the refoond that Bernie Sander will pay you in the amount of two hoondred and ninety eight dollahs for your tech support problem. Are you near your computer right now?"
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:01 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Yeah, giving people a choice in Health Care is so evil....
People love choice. "Am I going to pay my rent this month, or am I going to buy enough insulin to survive?"
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Old 27th February 2020, 12:01 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
People love choice. "Am I going to pay my rent this month, or am I going to buy enough insulin to survive?"
So you think people should have no choice in Health Care, and leave it all in the hands of the all knowing all wise bureaucrats?
I see that invidual freedom has a small place in your political philosophy.
You don't understand American at all. All of America is not a ultra liberal neighborhood in Boston.
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Old 27th February 2020, 12:10 PM   #164
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I want to make it clear, I am not a fan our our current health care system. I am just very skeptical that M4A, and not allowing any private opitions for health care, is the way to go.
Seems to me we are falsely limiting it to just two choices.
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Old 27th February 2020, 12:24 PM   #165
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Why Trump will be reelected

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Maybe? Not from my perspective, but the issues seem complex. Their job is to interface with all the insurance companies, Medicare and Medicaid. That way, we (and our billing system)donít have to worry about configuring claim formats to be compatible with each insurance company. And they donít have to worry about matching up with our system.

Granted, if everyone just agreed on one transaction standard and one response standard, that would be great; but, that isnít the reality we live in. In the end, the clearinghouses have made everything work together transparently and efficiently.


Theyíre necessary now, but having worked in the insurance industry, they just shift the admin overhead from the doctorís office to the clearing house. We had to support multiple types of input chains and secure transfer methods for the different clearing houses (and thatís just one insurance company).

Medicare, while being particular in their standards, were actually easier to work with (primarily because they had rules and standards for everything, and followed them).

Just as an example, one of the first jobs I had at the insurance company (in IT) was setting up a secure FTP with one of those clearing houses. We spent months going to meetings, planning out file formats, responsibilities, naming conventions, etc, all of which I programmed into the file transfer system for automation.

From day one, they ignored that. We got files named whatever, not placed in the right pick-up locations, not in the right formats, etc. It stayed that way for several years, until we finally stopped doing business with them. And they were not a small company, either. We ran into similar issues with every clearing house (although not to the same degree as with that one).

Heck, we even had issues with other insurance companies in our same network, at times, trying to move claims through our own proprietary system.

We never had the same frequency of issues with Medicare. Now they did some things in ways that were inefficient, but you knew what to expect. It was much easier to automate.

Thereís no doubt in my mind that single payer would reduce the admin overhead significantly. Not sure how much, though.

To answer someoneís question about reimbursements:

Insurance companies sign agreements with providers that limit the charge for certain procedures/medications. A doctors office may decide to accept InsureCo, say. The office wants that because it broadens the customer base (they can get new customers that use InsureCo). The insurance company uses various methods to decide whatís a reasonable price for various services, and the provider agrees to charge those prices to InsureCo patients (there may be negotiation and such here). Medicare works basically the same. If you take InsureCo, then your InsureCo patients can only get charged the negotiated amount for an X-ray, say. Thatís why you may see a bill that says something like: Cost without insurance: $2000, Insurance pays: $1350, You pay: $150 (where the insurance payout plus your copay donít add up to the uninsured cost). Part of that providers agreement with InsureCo says they can only charge $1500 for that procedure.

On mandating insurance for everyone:
In the US, law dictates that a provider has to provide service to save life, limb, or eyesight, regardless of ability to pay. Yet the law doesnít fund any of that. Thatís part of why some procedures are so much more in the uninsured costs: its also trying to recoup non paying patients. Thatís not nearly all of the cost, mind, but a part. And part of what the ACA was trying to help with by making sure everyone had to be insured.


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Old 27th February 2020, 12:35 PM   #166
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Why Trump will be reelected

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I want to make it clear, I am not a fan our our current health care system. I am just very skeptical that M4A, and not allowing any private opitions for health care, is the way to go.
Seems to me we are falsely limiting it to just two choices.


I agree with this. Medicare doesnít work for everything/everyone. Thatís why various Medicare supplemental plans (private plans) exist. Itís not as simple as just saying ďeveryone is Medicare nowĒ. That system would have to be restructured to some degree.

My main opposition to Bernie us the same: doing away with private options may make sense down the road, but trying to do it now, without a plan on how to change Medicare to make Ed it work for everyone, is going to fail (even assuming he could ever get it implemented politically). And that will likely set back efforts at any universal healthcare system when it does (ďwe tried that, it didnít workĒ).

Iíd rather wait four or eight years for UHC that works, with incremental improvements along the way, than try for a nebulous plan that will fail and cost sixteen years before we try again. Heck, even 20 years of incremental improvement would be better than a failure and 20 years of nothing.


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Old 27th February 2020, 06:56 PM   #167
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The problems with a partial/gradual approach (other than deliberately leaving some fraction of the problem we're trying to solve unsolved)...

1. Because this country is so oligarchical, any program that only benefits the non-rich is a target which the rich send their servants in government after like attack dogs. The only programs the rich who mostly run the country don't want destroyed are the ones they use themselves.

2. As long as insurance companies remain after whatever law on this issue is passed, they will continue bribing the politicians to give them back what was taken away.
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Old 27th February 2020, 07:07 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So you think people should have no choice in Health Care, and leave it all in the hands of the all knowing all wise bureaucrats?
I see that invidual freedom has a small place in your political philosophy.
You don't understand American at all. All of America is not a ultra liberal neighborhood in Boston.
Yes, people should be free to choose homeopathy or the power of prayer or a vegan diet as a cure for cancer.

Bureaucrats are not all knowing and all wise of course, but people with no scientific understanding of how medicine works left to their own devices might be better off in many cases if a bureaucrat with some actual understanding of medicine made the choice for them.

This is why we only allow doctors to prescribe certain medicines, and don't just leave it up to patients to choose what to take.
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Old 27th February 2020, 08:27 PM   #169
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I think the idea there is supposed to be the "choice" of private medical insurers or plans, but it makes even less sense in that case. Nobody chooses which medical insurance company their employer offers insurance from. And with that narrowed down to one, the "choice" between plans from that insurance company is a matter of how many dollars to spend in one way or at one time versus how many to spend in another way or at another time, all on a company which will drop you when you need it if it can find a way. Nobody actually likes or wants that, especially not compared to literally not needing ever make any such gambling decisions at all. If someone keeps punching you while asking you before each punch what part of your body you want to get punched in next, and then finally offers to just quit punching you, you don't demand that he keep punching you just so you can keep choosing where to get punched. Nobody really would. Not even the people who claim that somebody somewhere out there would.

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Old 27th February 2020, 08:34 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Yes, people should be free to choose homeopathy or the power of prayer or a vegan diet as a cure for cancer.

Bureaucrats are not all knowing and all wise of course, but people with no scientific understanding of how medicine works left to their own devices might be better off in many cases if a bureaucrat with some actual understanding of medicine made the choice for them.

This is why we only allow doctors to prescribe certain medicines, and don't just leave it up to patients to choose what to take.
I was thinking more in the way of People being able to choose their own doctors,and not have one assigned to them.
BTW last time I looked, in the US you need a doctor to prescribe most medicines also.
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Old 28th February 2020, 07:29 AM   #171
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Why Trump will be reelected

Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
The problems with a partial/gradual approach (other than deliberately leaving some fraction of the problem we're trying to solve unsolved)...

1. Because this country is so oligarchical, any program that only benefits the non-rich is a target which the rich send their servants in government after like attack dogs. The only programs the rich who mostly run the country don't want destroyed are the ones they use themselves.

2. As long as insurance companies remain after whatever law on this issue is passed, they will continue bribing the politicians to give them back what was taken away.


See, this is what confuses me.

How do these apply to a staged approach, or even a better plan that allows for private insurance as well (like most European countries), but somehow these factors arenít an issue in a ďletís start a war of annihilation against private insuranceĒ?

If the insurance companies are powerful enough to stop incremental change, how are they not going to fight harder to stop something that will remove them entirely?

Not to mention that I donít think a plan that bans private insurance would pass in the first place, so my evaluation is no change (Bernieís ď planĒ) vs a gradual change towards (IMO) a better model.

And also, as I stated, I think the simple ďgive everyone MedicareĒ model will fail. Iíve not seen anything that gives any details on how it would work, and questions about even basic outlines are answered with a lot of rhetoric. And the fact that this is being pushed as the only solution, when itís obvious that it hasnít been considered in detail, seems even more counter-rational.

My worry is that, at best, this will be the leftís version of Trumps wall: a lot of sound-good promises, but what would actually be implemented is going to cost more than promised, do less than promised, and sour pretty much everyone on any additional move in that direction.
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Old 28th February 2020, 07:44 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So you think people should have no choice in Health Care, and leave it all in the hands of the all knowing all wise bureaucrats?
I see that invidual freedom has a small place in your political philosophy.
You don't understand American at all. All of America is not a ultra liberal neighborhood in Boston.
I don't live in Boston, I'm a Suburban Turkey.

The "choice" i have in my healthcare is either the high deductible or very high deductible plan my job offers. I can't change that option unless I quit my job, and the next job probably offers a very similar plan.

Bureaucrats are already deciding my health care fate. The current bureaucrats just so happen to be health insurance profiteers rather than government agents.
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Old 28th February 2020, 07:59 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So you think people should have no choice in Health Care, and leave it all in the hands of the all knowing all wise bureaucrats?
I see that invidual freedom has a small place in your political philosophy.
You don't understand American at all. All of America is not a ultra liberal neighborhood in Boston.
You bring this up a lot, so I'm curious. What choices for Health Care do you currently have? For me it's 3 Cigna PPO plans. They don't offer different doctors or care of course, it's just so I can decide how much money I'm willing to pay for the privilege of lower deductibles and office visits.

The choice argument really isn't a valid one unless you're saying I have to choice to look for another job if I don't like my insurance company.
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Old 28th February 2020, 09:37 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I was thinking more in the way of People being able to choose their own doctors,and not have one assigned to them.
BTW last time I looked, in the US you need a doctor to prescribe most medicines also.
I have (oh, the horror!) government health insurance! And unlike most of my previous private insurance plans, it allows me to choose my own doctor, instead of having a "network".

In this state, Physicians Assistants (PA's) and Accredited Registered Nurse Practitioners (ARNP's) can prescribe if they are working under the supervision of a doctor.

ETA: Oh, and regarding the bureaucrats: They have lots of those in private insurance. I trust the government ones more as they are not specifically being paid to minimize the amount they cover.
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Old 28th February 2020, 09:38 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
I think the idea there is supposed to be the "choice" of private medical insurers or plans, but it makes even less sense in that case. Nobody chooses which medical insurance company their employer offers insurance from.
Two points:

- True, an employee doesn't decide what insurer their employer uses. But, people can use the health benefits plan when they decide what job to take. (After all, if you're a skilled employee, I doubt you will automatically take a job that pays minimum wage because "I gotta have a job". You chose where you work based on the compensation they offer. "This job pays X, gives me Y vacation days, and health care that covers Z... do I think that's adequate compensation?")

- Some people might want to pay for private insurance, even if that's not offered by their employer. That's what sometimes happens in the U.K.... many private insurance plans are sold directly to the public, even though they have a public plan that is fairly comprehensive
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Old 28th February 2020, 09:41 AM   #176
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We can all go around the room and agree that universal healthcare is just the bee's knees.

None of us where voting for Trump in the first place, so it's accomplished nothing.

Again if someone has a way to get a "You vote doesn't count because you're wrong and stupid" rule into place in the next 250 days let me know. Otherwise this is spinning wheels.
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Old 28th February 2020, 11:42 PM   #177
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The Trump campaign claims to have a $billion lined up for 2020; but it should worry them that half that amount doesn't even buy you a Nomination, as the Bloomberg example shows.
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Old 29th February 2020, 05:37 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The Trump campaign claims to have a $billion lined up for 2020; but it should worry them that half that amount doesn't even buy you a Nomination, as the Bloomberg example shows.
I'm pretty sure Trump knows he's already the Republican candidate, so a nomination isn't really unnecessary.
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Old 29th February 2020, 08:17 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I want to make it clear, I am not a fan our our current health care system. I am just very skeptical that M4A, and not allowing any private opitions for health care, is the way to go.
Seems to me we are falsely limiting it to just two choices.
Why would it be just the two choices? We have had the NHS in the UK for more than 70 years now which covers everyone out of taxation. Despite what some people say it is a good system, if I get in a serious accident and am badly injured or if I develop a long term health condition I will be treated free and for as long as it takes. However if I felt that the care wasn't sufficient I could take out private insurance or pay to go private. Available health care for all doesn't stop there being a private sector and if it is as good in the USA as some Americans seem to think why shouldn't it continue to thrive in a joint system?
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:51 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
4. Toxic Bernie-Bro culture. There are not that many of the toxic ones, but they are very vocal.
This.

I made what I thought was a rational plea aimed towards the Bernie-Bro that, he wins the nomination, Biden is the best chance to get rid of Trump and maybe it would be best to not demonize him if you are going to have to end up voting for him.

Based on the feedback I got from that, I think it's safe to say that Trump has it in the bag.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:55 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
This.

I made what I thought was a rational plea aimed towards the Bernie-Bro that, he wins the nomination, Biden is the best chance to get rid of Trump and maybe it would be best to not demonize him if you are going to have to end up voting for him.

Based on the feedback I got from that, I think it's safe to say that Trump has it in the bag.
I have no doubt that Bernie and his supporters will be blamed for any loss regardless of who the candidate is. It'll either be Bernie's fault because he's too left and moderates won't vote for him, or it'll be Bernie's fault because the Bernie bros didn't turn out for Biden.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:59 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
Quote:
I want to make it clear, I am not a fan our our current health care system. I am just very skeptical that M4A, and not allowing any private opitions for health care, is the way to go.
Seems to me we are falsely limiting it to just two choices.
Why would it be just the two choices? We have had the NHS in the UK for more than 70 years now which covers everyone out of taxation. Despite what some people say it is a good system, if I get in a serious accident and am badly injured or if I develop a long term health condition I will be treated free and for as long as it takes. However if I felt that the care wasn't sufficient I could take out private insurance or pay to go private. Available health care for all doesn't stop there being a private sector and if it is as good in the USA as some Americans seem to think why shouldn't it continue to thrive in a joint system?
You're right... it shouldn't be limited to just 2 systems. The problem is, the plan that Sanders is proposing (and that many BernieBros here are championing DOES eliminate private insurance. It appears to be completely ideological.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:59 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I have no doubt that Bernie and his supporters will be blamed for any loss regardless of who the candidate is.
I wonder why.

https://twitter.com/jackallisonLOL/s...87693637939202
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Old 9th March 2020, 09:03 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
That's right. Online Bernie Bros with names like "LeonThotsky420" are holding the party hostage. Fear them.
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Old 9th March 2020, 09:04 AM   #185
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This is Bernie's last chance, and there's nobody else like him. If we're not going to elect him in 2020, why even bother voting? Biden, Trump... It's establishment turtles all the way down. Might as well just stay home until AOC comes of age.
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Old 9th March 2020, 09:05 AM   #186
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I wonder if Putin giggles. I bet he's giggling.
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Old 9th March 2020, 09:27 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
This.

I made what I thought was a rational plea aimed towards the Bernie-Bro that, he wins the nomination, Biden is the best chance to get rid of Trump and maybe it would be best to not demonize him if you are going to have to end up voting for him.

Based on the feedback I got from that, I think it's safe to say that Trump has it in the bag.
Bernie Bros aren't rational, nor were they ever going to vote for anyone in the party but Bernie, and most of them probably weren't doing that. They are a demographically irrelevant but loud group of uncontrollable nihilistic internet trolls who mostly serve as an excuse for people to dismiss anything remotely antagonistic coming from Bernie supporters. That said...

One of the features of a primary is to get the oppo out before the general. This is happening now. If Biden's prospects in the general are crippled by something coming up in early March then maybe people need to re-evaluate him as a candidate. Or maybe he needs to punt his advisers.

Biden supporters seem to want Bernie supporters to enable their denial by not bringing up issues that will certainly be brought up in the general. As if that makes it all go away when he is up on stage with Trump and stammering out nonsense.

The only way he gets rid of these rumors of cognitive decline is to get on stage for a debate and hold his own. He got to sneak through the last two under the radar because of the number of candidates and Bloomberg as a lightning rod. He got to just pop in with decent energy and semi-canned lines.

I figure he's going to go down in flames unless his camp negotiates a debate format that limits how much he has to think on his feet and how long he has to be up there.
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Old 9th March 2020, 09:30 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I wonder if Putin giggles. I bet he's giggling.
What takes Putin's plan from "evil" to "evil genius" is that by installing Trump he's given American progressives no choice but to go along with his plot to further polarize and divide the nation. If I were him, I'd be giggling for sure. In between my deepwater diving and pen-balancing sessions.
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Old 9th March 2020, 09:43 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That's right. Online Bernie Bros with names like "LeonThotsky420" are holding the party hostage. Fear them.
That appears to be the plan, once again.

No idea how widely the sentiment is shared this time around, but I'm guessing it's at least as bad as before.
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Old 9th March 2020, 09:43 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Bernie Bros aren't rational, nor were they ever going to vote for anyone in the party but Bernie, and most of them probably weren't doing that. They are a demographically irrelevant but loud group of uncontrollable nihilistic internet trolls who mostly serve as an excuse for people to dismiss anything remotely antagonistic coming from Bernie supporters. That said...
I certainly hope this is true.

Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Biden supporters seem to want Bernie supporters to enable their denial by not bringing up issues that will certainly be brought up in the general. As if that makes it all go away when he is up on stage with Trump and stammering out nonsense.
I should clarify that I'm a Warren supporter who finds himself in a position to choose between two candidates I'm not-at-all enthusiastic about. I don't want the criticisms of Biden to stop, just the demonization. Despite my disappointment at Warren dropping out, my priority remains getting rid of the Orange *******.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:07 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
That appears to be the plan, once again.

No idea how widely the sentiment is shared this time around, but I'm guessing it's at least as bad as before.
Yes, this is a good reminder that a poorly run campaign by the Democratic party will blame Bernie bros rather than themselves.

25% of Clinton voters in 2008 voted for McCain. Sanders voters did not defect at an unusually high level, rather quite the opposite.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...p-voters-study
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:13 AM   #192
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The one and only reason why it currently looks like Trump has a decent chance of winning is the fact that the Democrat establishment might succeed in their quest to give him the easiest imaginable opponent again.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:20 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
The one and only reason why it currently looks like Trump has a decent chance of winning is the fact that the Democrat establishment might succeed in their quest to give him the easiest imaginable opponent again.
Because it's super hard to elect old white former VPs to the Presidency, whereas a young black guy with the middle name "Hussain" would be a cake walk?

What does that even mean?
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:24 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
25% of Clinton voters in 2008 voted for McCain. Sanders voters did not defect at an unusually high level, rather quite the opposite.
Are you implicitly arguing that Clinton and McCain are (at least roughly) as close together ideologically and politically as Sanders and Trump? If not, why do you think 2008 is a useful comparison here?

Seems to me that Sanders and Trump are vastly further apart than the Senators from NY and AZ who worked together on various bipartisan efforts. Between that and increasing levels of negative partisanship across the board, we should have expected a sharp decline in defection from the losing Democrat to the GOP nominee.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
...a poorly run campaign by the Democratic party will blame Bernie bros rather than themselves.
Had McCain won, would you have held the #PUMA voters blameless?
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:28 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Are you implicitly arguing that Clinton and McCain are (at least roughly) as close together ideologically and politically as Sanders and Trump? If not, why do you think 2008 is a useful comparison here?

Seems to me that Sanders and Trump are vastly further apart than the Senators from NY and AZ who worked together on various bipartisan efforts. Between that and increasing levels of negative partisanship across the board, we should have expected a sharp decline in defection from the losing Democrat to the GOP nominee.
I'm saying that Sander's defectors in the general were not a deciding factor. Some level of defection is normal, and it seems that Sanders defectors were quite small. If anything, Sanders supporters were more party-loyal than normal.

HRC apologists are only looking at these numbers because they are desperate to explain why the margins were so close in these pivotal states. It couldn't be that HRC was a weak candidate that did not adequately prioritize these states. No, it's the bad man that did it.

Bernie spoilers is a myth that establishment dems tell themselves so they don't have look inward and question why they lost the race.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Had McCain won, would you have held the #PUMA voters blameless?
I think such a framing fundamentally misunderstands the voter-candidate relationship. Voters don't owe a candidate their vote. Candidates have to earn them.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:33 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm saying that Sander's defectors in the general were not a deciding factor.
Any factor that put Trump over the top in key swing states is a deciding factor, by definition. Once again, here are the numbers:

https://twitter.com/gelliottmorris/s...64807961305088

This doesn't mean that other factors such as the Comey announcement or "HRC was a weak candidate" are necessarily ruled out. There need not be exactly one deciding factor in a close election.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think such a framing fundamentally misunderstands the voter-candidate relationship. Voters don't owe a candidate their vote.
Since you dodged the question by bringing up an unrelated issue, I'll put you down for blameless.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:36 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Any factor that put Trump over the top in key swing states is a deciding factor, by definition. Once again, here are the numbers:

https://twitter.com/gelliottmorris/s...64807961305088
Yes, and traffic was the reason I was late to work today. Sure, I overslept and left 20 minutes late, but if there wasn't the normal amount of traffic, I would have made it. I mean, there was less traffic than normal, but it wasn't 0 traffic, so it was a deciding factor in my lateness.

Should I blame traffic for being late? Of course not. But if there was no traffic, I wouldn't have been late.

Defecting primary voters are a constant of political life. Sanders voters were actually more loyal than most to the party. They didn't cost Hillary the election.

If PUMA voters had cost Obama the election, I'd have serious questions to the viability of an Obama candidate. I'd wonder why so many voters found him unacceptable, or at the least preferred McCain. Primary voters aren't slaves to the party.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:40 AM   #198
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Great. Who to blame when Trump is re-elected is a far, far, far secondary concern to him not getting re-elected.

To use the traffic metaphor when I'm dying of a heart attack in the back of an ambulance and the ambulance driver looks back and goes "Don't worry, it's not my fault, the drawbridge is up"... my heart is going to magically fix itself.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:41 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, and traffic was the reason I was late to work today.
I get that you want to pin everything on HRC, as if she was totally in the driver's seat, but I don't think this analogy really works for me. Everyone who deliberately affected the outcome bears moral responsibility here, including the Bernie voters who went for Trump.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:42 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
25% of Clinton voters in 2008 voted for McCain. Sanders voters did not defect at an unusually high level, rather quite the opposite.
Yes its true.... a lot of Clinton supporters ended up voting for McCain, even more so than BernieBros supporting Trump.

But here's the thing: McCain would have at least been competent. As Obama said, "I think I was right and Mitt Romney and John McCain were wrong on certain policy issues, but I never thought that they couldnít do the job.".

Compare that to the BernieBros who ended up supporting Trump... Not only are they picking someone who is even further away from the policies that Sanders was proposing, they were picking someone who was clearly unsuitable for the job: A racist con-artist who was a habitual liar.

As an analogy, the Clinton/McCain situation is like wanting a Big Mac and finding out your local McDonalds is closed, so you go to Burger King for a whopper instead. On the other hand, the Sanders/Trump situation is like wanting a Big Mac, finding the McDonald's is closed, and deciding to eat a dead bird you found on the side of the road.
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