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Old 9th March 2020, 10:42 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
This.

I made what I thought was a rational plea aimed towards the Bernie-Bro that, he wins the nomination, Biden is the best chance to get rid of Trump and maybe it would be best to not demonize him if you are going to have to end up voting for him.

Based on the feedback I got from that, I think it's safe to say that Trump has it in the bag.
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I have no doubt that Bernie and his supporters will be blamed for any loss regardless of who the candidate is. It'll either be Bernie's fault because he's too left and moderates won't vote for him, or it'll be Bernie's fault because the Bernie bros didn't turn out for Biden.
Incredible.

You guys are eating each other rather than focusing on the real threat.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:44 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Defecting primary voters are a constant of political life. Sanders voters were actually more loyal than most to the party. They didn't cost Hillary the election.
Other than the 51k Sanders supporters who voted Trump in Wisconsin, the 47k Sanders supporters who voted Trump in Michigan, and the 116k Sanders supporters who voted Trump in Pennsylvania, this statement holds true.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:45 AM   #203
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I do love how the far left and far right have joined in glorious harmony in their opinion that the system is so messed up and not worth saving that any level of compromise, temporary fixes, "good enough" or similar concepts are not worth and the system being pulled down on all our heads is a just comeuppance for our sins of not being ideologically pure enough for them.

This is a vegetarian who when the restaurant only has regular kale and not the organically grown non-GMO kale grown in low water hydroponic farms he thinks is perfect, he eats a bucket of factory farmed veal just to spite the system, and yet somehow still argues he's a better vegetarian then the guy next to him who just ordered the regular kale.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:54 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Other than the 51k Sanders supporters who voted Trump in Wisconsin, the 47k Sanders supporters who voted Trump in Michigan, and the 116k Sanders supporters who voted Trump in Pennsylvania, this statement holds true.
Sadly, even not voting for either would have kept the Trumpeter out of the White House.
Sanders supporters could have written him in, voted third party, or simply not cast a vote for POTUS at all. Voting for Trump was a spiteful act.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:57 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Voting for Trump was a spiteful act.
And we need to come to terms with the fact that intentionally (Trump) and unintentionally (Sanders) politicians are tapping into "spite" as a new political resources.

Up until the last few years even the most vile, hateful, dishonest, dirty, and unqualified politicians had to at least pretend to offer you something you wanted.

Now? An unspoken "Elect me specifically because it will make things worse and justify your edgelord High School emo fake 'Nothing matters, everything is equally bad' nihilism affect" or "Because it will tweak the other side and won't that be a hoot" is enough.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:58 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I do love how the far left and far right have joined in glorious harmony in their opinion that the system is so messed up and not worth saving that any level of compromise, temporary fixes, "good enough" or similar concepts are not worth and the system being pulled down on all our heads is a just comeuppance for our sins of not being ideologically pure enough for them.

This is a vegetarian who when the restaurant only has regular kale and not the organically grown non-GMO kale grown in low water hydroponic farms he thinks is perfect, he eats a bucket of factory farmed veal just to spite the system.
There is a portion of the country that don't find "a return to Obama-era normalcy" as being that great of a solution.

It's better than Trump, but that's not saying much.

My real fear is that Trump is removed, some do-nothing Dem gets the office, and someone much worse and more competent than Trump is able to use inevitable populist backlash to pull the country even harder to the right.

There are some deep fissures in the foundation of our society and technocratic centrists are not the solution. These people are twiddling their thumbs while the authoritarian, reactionary right is building up steam.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:00 AM   #207
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If (g)you are so far into the Far Left bubble that Obama and Trump are "the same" in even the broadest category, seek help.

And again this is Trumpism from the other side. I've heard "LOL all politicians are dirty so we elected the worst one to show you squares that nothing you do matters" Joker/Tyler Durden routine in the subtext and outright text of the Trumpers for the last 3 years. I don't need to hear it again from the Left.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:09 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Voting for Trump was a spiteful act.
That was always his big selling point after all.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:13 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
As an analogy, the Clinton/McCain situation is like wanting a Big Mac and finding out your local McDonalds is closed, so you go to Burger King for a whopper instead. On the other hand, the Sanders/Trump situation is like wanting a Big Mac, finding the McDonald's is closed, and deciding to eat a dead bird you found on the side of the road.
This line of argument has two flaws.

Both of them are that he chose Sarah Palin to be his vice president.

Both the reality of her being that close to power, and the fact what choosing her says about his judgment and ability to lead.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:17 AM   #210
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I get it.

The two established entrenched sides have been playing the "No you have to vote for my candidate or YOU'LL RUIN THIS ELECTION FOR ME AND THIS ONE IS TOO IMPORTANT TO LOSE!" card against 3rd party, independants, and outliers within their own party pretty much as their sole argument for a long time. I've taken them to task for as much in the past. The two party, first past the post system lets them play this game. It's wrong and it sucks and it needs to be changed.

But it rather sucks that "This race is too important to lose" is true the one goddamn time a bunch of butt hurt ideologiest decided to make a counter point of it.

Couldn't you have played this game against Romney or McCain and not saved it for goddamn Donald Trump? We as a country would have survived a McCain or Romney presidency. But another Trump term is at least two more hardcore conservative judges on the Supreme Court for... the... rest... of... our... lives.

Suck it up. We don't have time to play your long game.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:17 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I do love how the far left and far right have joined in glorious harmony in their opinion that the system is so messed up and not worth saving that any level of compromise, temporary fixes, "good enough" or similar concepts are not worth and the system being pulled down on all our heads is a just comeuppance for our sins of not being ideologically pure enough for them.

.
Perhaps it's worth exploring why so many people seem to be really unhappy with the status quo. Centrist types are always so gleeful to dismiss this sentiment right up until it punches them in the nose.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:21 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This is a vegetarian who when the restaurant only has regular kale and not the organically grown non-GMO kale grown in low water hydroponic farms he thinks is perfect, he eats a bucket of factory farmed veal just to spite the system, and yet somehow still argues he's a better vegetarian then the guy next to him who just ordered the regular kale.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:21 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Perhaps it's worth exploring why so many people seem to be really unhappy with the status quo. Centrist types are always so gleeful to dismiss this sentiment right up until it punches them in the nose.
Again, already heard it from the Trumpers. It's the same tune.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:26 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There is a portion of the country that don't find "a return to Obama-era normalcy" as being that great of a solution.

It's better than Trump, but that's not saying much.
It's saying enough.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:29 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's actually worse than that now that I think about.

This is a vegetarian who goes into a restaurant, orders the organic, GMO-free, hydroponically grown kale, is told that they only thing they have available is regular kale so he orders a giant bucket of factory farmed veal just to spite "the system" all while still proclaiming himself an ideologically pure vegetarian... and he goes around the restaurant berating all the vegetarians eating the regular veal and trying to get them to eat the veal as well because the regular kale represents some approval of "the system."

You can make compromises and still fight the same fight. People who live in the real world and not Twitter understand this.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:44 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's saying enough.
That remains to be seen.

Having a large population of increasingly pissed off, disaffected people is a massive gift to the reactionary right. We have already seen an explosion of explicitly fascist and reactionary right wing groups in the last 4 years. Trump leaving office is only one piece of this.

The Trump presidency could end up just being a footnote for some other right wing leader who is much more cruel, effective, and ideological.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:46 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Why trump will be reelected...
I came across an interesting article this morning essentially arguing that the economic repercussions of the novel coronavirus, paired with colossal and obvious maladministration, will bascially doom the incumbent administration's chances at a second term.

https://twitter.com/jonathanchait/st...55246221881345
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:49 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I came across an interesting article this morning essentially arguing that the economic repercussions of the novel coronavirus, paired with colossal and obvious maladministration, will bascially doom the incumbent administration's chances at a second term.

https://twitter.com/jonathanchait/st...55246221881345
It would doom any President who hadn't been elected to intentionally break the system to show us all "how bad it is."
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:49 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That remains to be seen.
You can't possibly be serious. Biden may not be a great choice, and personally if pressed I'd prefer Sanders, but he's worlds better than Trump, and pretending otherwise, especially considering the party he belongs to, is just dishonest.

Quote:
Having a large population of increasingly pissed off, disaffected people is a massive gift to the reactionary right.
That's true enough, but Biden wouldn't be king. Especially now, he may be little more than a rubber stamp, assuming the Democrats can flip the Senate.

Quote:
The Trump presidency could end up just being a footnote for some other right wing leader who is much more cruel, effective, and ideological.
It's yet to be seen the damage Trump and his court appointments could do.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:50 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

Suck it up. We don't have time to play your long game.
At least those other elections the candidates themselves gave a plausible case as to why they should be president and let the Lesser Of Two Evils context mostly just play out in the background.


That Biden has effectively made this the centerpiece of his campaign is ironically the best reason for not playing the game. He could be out there talking affirmative solutions but really he's trying to define himself as being better than Trump in ways that are unlikely to move the needle.

Biden will likely win if there is a major recession or Trump gets rightly blamed if the coronavirus gets as nasty as projected. So yeah.

Other than that, it feels like the Democratic Party bet Mortimer Duke $1 that they could win the popular vote and lose the electoral vote by larger margins than in 2016.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:51 AM   #221
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Okay no more "long term plans" from anyone who doesn't have a plan on how to deal with a 7-2 Conservative Supreme Court.

That will not be a goddamn "Foot note." It's a major shift in the balance of power for the rest of most of our lives.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:54 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You can't possibly be serious. Biden may not be a great choice, and personally if pressed I'd prefer Sanders, but he's worlds better than Trump, and pretending otherwise, especially considering the party he belongs to, is just dishonest.



That's true enough, but Biden wouldn't be king. Especially now, he may be little more than a rubber stamp, assuming the Democrats can flip the Senate.



It's yet to be seen the damage Trump and his court appointments could do.
You misunderstand me. Of course Biden would be a better president than Trump. For all the obvious reasons. If it's a Biden-Trump race, the option is quite clear, and it's not Trump. Hopefully enough other people also feel this way, but I've given up even pretending to know what the country wants after 2016.

I just wonder whether a Biden presidency would be enough to stamp out the embers of the proto-authoritarian right. I don't think Trump is a one-off anomaly. He's one possible response to growing disaffection in the country. If things don't change substantially, and soon, another will be along shortly.

Trump's silver lining is that he is deeply lazy, undisciplined, and inconsistently ideological. The next right wing reactionary leader that takes advantage of intense populist rage might not share these vices.
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Old 9th March 2020, 12:01 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Especially now, he may be little more than a rubber stamp, assuming the Democrats can flip the Senate.
This sounds like a pretty wonderful deal to me, at least as I'd like to envision it playing out.

Senate Majority Leader Elizabeth Warren comes up with legislative fixes and systemic reforms that are just as progressive as they can be, given the ideological differences which exist among half a hundred Democratic Senators. She passes these reforms out of the Senate and Leader Pelosi has no trouble getting them through the House.

Subsequently, Biden throws a rubberstamp party:

I would pack up and move to this timeline in a heartbeat.
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Old 9th March 2020, 12:04 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The two established entrenched sides have been playing the "No you have to vote for my candidate or YOU'LL RUIN THIS ELECTION FOR ME AND THIS ONE IS TOO IMPORTANT TO LOSE!" card against 3rd party, independants, and outliers within their own party pretty much as their sole argument for a long time.
Close, but not quite the real problem; the real problem is that both sides were really the same side all along: the bribe-taking, trickle-up-economics, let-the-peasants-eat-dirt side.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Couldn't you have played this game against Romney or McCain and not saved it for goddamn Donald Trump?
Nobody's been saving it. There are just now more people realizing/admitting it... possibly in response to Trump and how Democrats have handled him, so it wasn't possible before.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Suck it up. We don't have time to play your long game.
The short game isn't buying any time. It's what's been leading to where we are now.
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Old 9th March 2020, 12:08 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This sounds like a pretty wonderful deal to me, at least as I'd like to envision it playing out.

Senate Majority Leader Elizabeth Warren comes up with legislative fixes and systemic reforms that are just as progressive as they can be, given the ideological differences which exist among half a hundred Democratic Senators. She passes these reforms out of the Senate and Leader Pelosi has no trouble getting them through the House.

Subsequently, Biden throws a rubberstamp party:

I would pack up and move to this timeline in a heartbeat.
Then the SCOTUS, including Clarence Thomas who has Joe Biden's sexist haranguing of Anita Hill partially to thank for his seat, rules it all unconstitutional. Then they overrule Roe V Wade, declare the US a giant thunderdome, and have long afternoon nap.

Ok, I'm having a bit of fun here. This is supposed to be a no malarkey zone.
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Old 9th March 2020, 12:10 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Then the SCOTUS, including Clarence Thomas who has Joe Biden's sexist haranguing of Anita Hill partially to thank for his seat, rules it all unconstitutional. Then they overrule Roe V Wade, declare the US a giant thunderdome, and have long afternoon nap.

Ok, I'm having a bit of fun here. This is supposed to be a no malarkey zone.
And your plan is to hand them two more justices as a fair trade for some short term "Wake up the sheeple" victory?
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Old 9th March 2020, 12:12 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And your plan is to hand them two more justices as a fair trade for some short term "Wake up the sheeple" victory?
Strawmen don't vote.

It might shock you to learn it's possible to vote for Biden in the general and still think he's a terrible candidate. In fact, more than half the country can vote for him and he could still lose!
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Old 9th March 2020, 12:28 PM   #228
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Then the SCOTUS, including Clarence Thomas who has Joe Biden's sexist haranguing of Anita Hill partially to thank for his seat, rules it all unconstitutional.
Wait, I thought you were arguing for even more progressive and less precedented reforms such as the total abolition of private medical insurance contracts?

You think Clarence Thomas is down for those?
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Old 9th March 2020, 12:42 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Wait, I thought you were arguing for even more progressive and less precedented reforms such as the total abolition of private medical insurance contracts?

You think Clarence Thomas is down for those?
Emperor Bernie gonna make the SCOTUS 100 members and pack it with young, healthy DSA members that take their orders from Cuba.
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Old 9th March 2020, 12:49 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This sounds like a pretty wonderful deal to me, at least as I'd like to envision it playing out.

Senate Majority Leader Elizabeth Warren comes up with legislative fixes and systemic reforms that are just as progressive as they can be, given the ideological differences which exist among half a hundred Democratic Senators. She passes these reforms out of the Senate and Leader Pelosi has no trouble getting them through the House.

Subsequently, Biden throws a rubberstamp party:

I would pack up and move to this timeline in a heartbeat.
Biden could spend his presidency in bed and on oxygen, for all I care. As long as the Senate is won back at some point, and the House is held.
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Old 9th March 2020, 01:04 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Emperor Bernie gonna make the SCOTUS 100 members and pack it with young, healthy DSA members that take their orders from Cuba.
Falling back on snide self referential jokes when someone makes a valid point doesn't make your case nearly as well as you think it does.
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Old 9th March 2020, 01:11 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Falling back on snide self referential jokes when someone makes a valid point doesn't make your case nearly as well as you think it does.
Got any polling on that?
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Old 9th March 2020, 01:20 PM   #233
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Again not really selling me on the "Oh we're totally not the Trumpers" here.

Got the laughing dog gif handy?
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Old 9th March 2020, 01:21 PM   #234
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Old 9th March 2020, 01:23 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again not really selling me on the "Oh we're totally not the Trumpers" here.

Got the laughing dog gif handy?
Dutifully marching into the polling station to vote for Hillary 2.0. Maybe it'll be less bitter this time, like an acquired taste, ya know?

All joking aside, I hope that the general hatred of Trump is enough to for any Democratic candidate, including Biden, to win. Just not optimistic.
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Old 9th March 2020, 01:28 PM   #236
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We're at an impasse if you can only conceptualize of people's opinions within the framework of how they fit on some imaginary political scale.

90% of voters don't give a crap about where someone charts on the Left to Right Spectrum. They see the political parties as either/or choices.

But you keep scarfing down that veal. Sooner or later it will really impress all the less pure vegetarians.
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Old 9th March 2020, 01:34 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Dutifully marching into the polling station to vote for Hillary 2.0. Maybe it'll be less bitter this time, like an acquired taste, ya know?
Hopefully, yes.

Do you sincerely believe the Roberts court will look at Sanders' most ambitious reforms (e.g. abolishing private insurance) and find them constitutional?
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Old 9th March 2020, 01:37 PM   #238
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Hillary Clinton was more capable than Biden is now, baggage and all.

Obama should have never gassed Biden up. I'm not sure he would have wanted to run in 2020 if it weren't for Obama.
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Old 9th March 2020, 01:42 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We're at an impasse if you can only conceptualize of people's opinions within the framework of how they fit on some imaginary political scale.

90% of voters don't give a crap about where someone charts on the Left to Right Spectrum. They see the political parties as either/or choices.

But you keep scarfing down that veal. Sooner or later it will really impress all the less pure vegetarians.

You mean vegans, right?


*** Elagabalus takes out his oversized wooden ladle and carefully begins to stir the wheelbarrow full of melted butter ***
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Old 9th March 2020, 01:44 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Obama should have never gassed Biden up. I'm not sure he would have wanted to run in 2020 if it weren't for Obama.
It would be very nice to see them campaigning together again.
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