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Old 27th February 2020, 02:39 PM   #1
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Top Marine Orders Confederate Paraphernalia to Be Removed from All Bases

https://www.military.com/daily-news/...all-bases.html

No confederate trash allowed on Marine bases.
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Old 27th February 2020, 02:41 PM   #2
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Why does he hate America?
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Old 27th February 2020, 02:44 PM   #3
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Good. About time.
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Old 27th February 2020, 02:44 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...all-bases.html

No confederate trash allowed on Marine bases.
"I have no religious or racial prejudices of any kind. To me, you are all equally worthless".

Traditional statement by Marine Crops DI welcoming recruits to basic training.
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Old 27th February 2020, 02:57 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...all-bases.html

No confederate trash allowed on Marine bases.
Pfft, another snowflake who hates America's proud military history.

Seriously though, can we remove the names of Pro slavery generals from military bases as well?
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Old 27th February 2020, 03:06 PM   #6
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I should hope we don't allow losers and traitors into the Marines.
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Old 27th February 2020, 03:07 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
"I have no religious or racial prejudices of any kind. To me, you are all equally worthless".

Traditional statement by Marine Crops DI welcoming recruits to basic training.
W.C. Fields was in the Marines?
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Old 27th February 2020, 03:12 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Pfft, another snowflake who hates America's proud military history.

Seriously though, can we remove the names of Pro slavery generals from military bases as well?
Fort Bragg always puzzled me because, besides being a Confederate Bragg was a lousy general.
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Old 27th February 2020, 03:13 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
W.C. Fields was in the Marines?

Just used that Fields quote in another thread....

I would not be surprised if the Marine DI's "Borrowed" that line from Fields.
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Old 27th February 2020, 08:45 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Just used that Fields quote in another thread....

I would not be surprised if the Marine DI's "Borrowed" that line from Fields.

They are not the only ones to borrow that quote

GSI's - General Service Instructors (our equivalent to the Marine DI) use that expression, or variations of it, when addressing a bunch of new erks.


I remember most of the rant that our GSI gave us in 1973....'I don't care if you're a darkie, a whitey, a left footer or a right footer. To me, you're all a bunch of useless *****'
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Old 29th February 2020, 01:36 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Pfft, another snowflake who hates America's proud military history.
Or one who recognizes that part of America's proud military history was soundly beating the Confederacy. Arguably coming back from behind, even.
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Old 29th February 2020, 01:54 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Or one who recognizes that part of America's proud military history was soundly beating the Confederacy. Arguably coming back from behind, even.
Methinks Donal was havin' a bit o' Cain there.
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Old 29th February 2020, 02:58 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...all-bases.html

No confederate trash allowed on Marine bases.
We need news like this with the orange one at the wheel.
Unless he gets word of this and reverses the decision, of course.
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Old 29th February 2020, 04:35 AM   #14
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I've never understood how the country that's so dedicated to 'winning' has let the losing side hang around like a bad smell for so long. It's mental.
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Old 29th February 2020, 06:13 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I've never understood how the country that's so dedicated to 'winning' has let the losing side hang around like a bad smell for so long. It's mental.

There are parts of the country where it's felt they didn't lose. They're just biding their time and gathering their strength.
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Old 29th February 2020, 02:11 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
There are parts of the country where it's felt they didn't lose. They're just biding their time and gathering their strength.
Lost Cause and Neo-Confederate idiocy.

Is this still a prevalent way of thinking in The South?
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Old 29th February 2020, 02:44 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Lost Cause and Neo-Confederate idiocy.

Is this still a prevalent way of thinking in The South?
Definitely prevalent but on the slow decline.

The DAR hasn't had the power it once wielded at the early part of the 20th century: They long lost the ability to disapprove history textbooks that didn't paint the slavery South is a loving light since at least the Civil Rights era (although it took a while for textbooks to lose their residual habits).

Confederacy Yee-haa! nonsense had been ignored or tolerated for decades with a 'fine, fine, that's cute, tell yourself whatever, we'll be over here in reality". But then in the 90's the neo-Confederates went to far with their attempts to justify the South antics, their high water mark being a book call 'The South Was Right', and the backlash began to build. Slowly, at first, but as the online community grew anyone trying the old gimmicks of 'It was about State's Rights!' could be quickly shot down.

Then, of course, came Dylan Roof, and the whole thing was no longer 'cute' (not that it ever really was) but recognized as a hate & oppression movement with a thin veneer of 'Southern Pride' badly glued on top.

It also helps that we are getting further and further from that era. Its easy enough to feel a link to Grampy and his fightin', but its a bit harder for you to feel much attachment to a 5x Great Grandfather whose only defining characteristic was fighting on the losing side of a war.
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Old 29th February 2020, 04:43 PM   #18
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I'm not sure I share your optimistic outlook on the situation, kookbreaker.

I think the only thing that has substantially changed is that neo-Confederate and Lost Cause ideology is now openly called out and confronted by people already opposed to it. I do not think this translates to a wane amongst its advocates; quite the opposite, as they respond by openly challenging the challengers, enlisting the help of legislators to pass laws protecting Lost Cause iconography.
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Old 29th February 2020, 04:58 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Definitely prevalent but on the slow decline.

The DAR hasn't had the power it once wielded at the early part of the 20th century: They long lost the ability to disapprove history textbooks that didn't paint the slavery South is a loving light since at least the Civil Rights era (although it took a while for textbooks to lose their residual habits).

Confederacy Yee-haa! nonsense had been ignored or tolerated for decades with a 'fine, fine, that's cute, tell yourself whatever, we'll be over here in reality". But then in the 90's the neo-Confederates went to far with their attempts to justify the South antics, their high water mark being a book call 'The South Was Right', and the backlash began to build. Slowly, at first, but as the online community grew anyone trying the old gimmicks of 'It was about State's Rights!' could be quickly shot down.

Then, of course, came Dylan Roof, and the whole thing was no longer 'cute' (not that it ever really was) but recognized as a hate & oppression movement with a thin veneer of 'Southern Pride' badly glued on top.

It also helps that we are getting further and further from that era. Its easy enough to feel a link to Grampy and his fightin', but its a bit harder for you to feel much attachment to a 5x Great Grandfather whose only defining characteristic was fighting on the losing side of a war.
In the early 1990's I watched the whole 11 hours of Ken Burns' "The Civil War", and more recently, I rewatched the whole of the 2015 digitally restored HD version. It was kind of strange in that in the rewatching, I got the feeling that Burns seemed more sympathetic to The South than I had remembered from the first time I saw it. It took me a while to understand that it was me... I was what had changed.

Twenty-five years ago, I likely had a lot more empathy for The South, and had felt that the argument over slavery was only incidental to the other reasons for the succession and the war. However, I have come to realise that while all those other reasons, economics, state's rights etc were valid, they were only valid because The South having to give up slavery was at the very core of those reasons - without the very cheap labour of slaves, the agrarian based industries of The South were going to be hugely less profitable.

I still think that the removal of all things Confederate could be a double edged sword - the good part is that their absence removes the confrontational reminders to those whose forebears were oppressed by slavery, but their removal also takes away the actual objects - the overt, visible lessons in history - the ability to point at that statue and say "This is the man who did these things". Slavery, secession and the Civil War are not things to be proud of, but they are part of America's history whether people like it or not, and there is a danger that trying to cleanse it looks more like denying that history than owning and accepting it.

Just in the same way that we must never be allowed to forget what Nazi Germany did in the mid 20th century, so America must never forget what happened in the lead up to and during the Civil War - over 625,000 dead, over 1.6 million wounded is still a greater price than America has paid in any other war. I also believe that, you can express and feel empathy for those grandads and great-grandads who fought on the wrong side of a war, without condoning or supporting that side.
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Old 29th February 2020, 05:07 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Definitely prevalent but on the slow decline.

The DAR hasn't had the power it once wielded at the early part of the 20th century: They long lost the ability to disapprove history textbooks that didn't paint the slavery South is a loving light since at least the Civil Rights era (although it took a while for textbooks to lose their residual habits).

Confederacy Yee-haa! nonsense had been ignored or tolerated for decades with a 'fine, fine, that's cute, tell yourself whatever, we'll be over here in reality". But then in the 90's the neo-Confederates went to far with their attempts to justify the South antics, their high water mark being a book call 'The South Was Right', and the backlash began to build. Slowly, at first, but as the online community grew anyone trying the old gimmicks of 'It was about State's Rights!' could be quickly shot down.

Then, of course, came Dylan Roof, and the whole thing was no longer 'cute' (not that it ever really was) but recognized as a hate & oppression movement with a thin veneer of 'Southern Pride' badly glued on top.

It also helps that we are getting further and further from that era. Its easy enough to feel a link to Grampy and his fightin', but its a bit harder for you to feel much attachment to a 5x Great Grandfather whose only defining characteristic was fighting on the losing side of a war.
Do you mean the United Daughters of the Confederacy and not the Daughters of the American Revolution?
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Old 29th February 2020, 05:18 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Do you mean the United Daughters of the Confederacy and not the Daughters of the American Revolution?
Yes, you're right. I've typed DAR so many times in my life vs. DAC (because I was a Rev War Reenactor) that its almost a habit. :P
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Old 29th February 2020, 05:22 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
In the early 1990's I watched the whole 11 hours of Ken Burns' "The Civil War", and more recently, I rewatched the whole of the 2015 digitally restored HD version. It was kind of strange in that in the rewatching, I got the feeling that Burns seemed more sympathetic to The South than I had remembered from the first time I saw it. It took me a while to understand that it was me... I was what had changed.

Twenty-five years ago, I likely had a lot more empathy for The South, and had felt that the argument over slavery was only incidental to the other reasons for the succession and the war. However, I have come to realise that while all those other reasons, economics, state's rights etc were valid, they were only valid because The South having to give up slavery was at the very core of those reasons - without the very cheap labour of slaves, the agrarian based industries of The South were going to be hugely less profitable.

I still think that the removal of all things Confederate could be a double edged sword - the good part is that their absence removes the confrontational reminders to those whose forebears were oppressed by slavery, but their removal also takes away the actual objects - the overt, visible lessons in history - the ability to point at that statue and say "This is the man who did these things". Slavery, secession and the Civil War are not things to be proud of, but they are part of America's history whether people like it or not, and there is a danger that trying to cleanse it looks more like denying that history than owning and accepting it.

Just in the same way that we must never be allowed to forget what Nazi Germany did in the mid 20th century, so America must never forget what happened in the lead up to and during the Civil War - over 625,000 dead, over 1.6 million wounded is still a greater price than America has paid in any other war. I also believe that, you can express and feel empathy for those grandads and great-grandads who fought on the wrong side of a war, without condoning or supporting that side.
While I understand your point, I don't agree with it. We don't need to actually see statues to Confederate generals in order to know about the Civil War. The South is full of historical locations that can be visited including the battlefields of Shiloh, Manassas (Bull Run), Fort Sumter, Vicksburg, etc. Lee's home at Arlington and (rebuilt) Appomattox Courthouse are open to the public. There are so many places to visit and learn from. We don't need statues honoring those who fought to maintain slavery. It is a slap in the face to every African American.

I have 3 Confederate ancestors, one of whom died in one of the first battles (Wilson's Creek) and another who was at Appomattox. I'm neither proud of nor ashamed of them. As you said, we can feel empathy for those men who fought for what they believed was right without condoning or supporting that side.
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Old 29th February 2020, 05:24 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Yes, you're right. I've typed DAR so many times in my life vs. DAC (because I was a Rev War Reenactor) that its almost a habit. :P
I figured that was the case. I qualify several times over to belong to both groups but I don't. But I'd love to see a re-enactment from both wars.
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Old 29th February 2020, 05:26 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
In the early 1990's I watched the whole 11 hours of Ken Burns' "The Civil War", and more recently, I rewatched the whole of the 2015 digitally restored HD version. It was kind of strange in that in the rewatching, I got the feeling that Burns seemed more sympathetic to The South than I had remembered from the first time I saw it. It took me a while to understand that it was me... I was what had changed.

Twenty-five years ago, I likely had a lot more empathy for The South, and had felt that the argument over slavery was only incidental to the other reasons for the succession and the war. However, I have come to realise that while all those other reasons, economics, state's rights etc were valid, they were only valid because The South having to give up slavery was at the very core of those reasons - without the very cheap labour of slaves, the agrarian based industries of The South were going to be hugely less profitable.
I'm kind of in the same boat. I never liked the Confederacy but I still gave them far more pity credit than they deserved. I did change my tune a bit about the post-war pity parties when my college prof pointed out that no rebelling region was ever treated as gently as the South was post-war, and that most carpet-baggers were actually invited by the South.

Quote:
I still think that the removal of all things Confederate could be a double edged sword - the good part is that their absence removes the confrontational reminders to those whose forebears were oppressed by slavery, but their removal also takes away the actual objects - the overt, visible lessons in history - the ability to point at that statue and say "This is the man who did these things". Slavery, secession and the Civil War are not things to be proud of, but they are part of America's history whether people like it or not, and there is a danger that trying to cleanse it looks more like denying that history than owning and accepting it.
I doubt removing them has any more 'cleansing history' effect than removing all the Swastikas in Germany did (and there were a lot of Swastikas).

History will continue to be studied, and our kids will learn about it for ages to come. I don't think this will change because a few monuments get taken down or flags get removed from display. Especially given that most of the reason those flags and statues are up is to intimidate people.

Frankly the bigger issue is that having all those things around normalizes the Confederacy and its modern-day proponents. As if to say "Its OK to show off our overtly racist nature by displaying symbols of a racist era and acting like its hunky-dory.
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Old 29th February 2020, 05:41 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
I doubt removing them has any more 'cleansing history' effect than removing all the Swastikas in Germany did (and there were a lot of Swastikas).

History will continue to be studied, and our kids will learn about it for ages to come. I don't think this will change because a few monuments get taken down or flags get removed from display. Especially given that most of the reason those flags and statues are up is to intimidate people.

Frankly the bigger issue is that having all those things around normalizes the Confederacy and its modern-day proponents. As if to say "Its OK to show off our overtly racist nature by displaying symbols of a racist era and acting like its hunky-dory.
As long as Part A (removing the symbols, especially the official ones such as Confedrate flags on government buildings) is followed by Part B, making sure that America's true history is properly taught in schools from a young age - 1st grade. Even if they don't understand it fully, start them off by understanding that racism and slavery are bad things right from the get-go.
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Old 29th February 2020, 05:57 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
While I understand your point, I don't agree with it. We don't need to actually see statues to Confederate generals in order to know about the Civil War. The South is full of historical locations that can be visited including the battlefields of Shiloh, Manassas (Bull Run), Fort Sumter, Vicksburg, etc. Lee's home at Arlington and (rebuilt) Appomattox Courthouse are open to the public. There are so many places to visit and learn from. We don't need statues honoring those who fought to maintain slavery. It is a slap in the face to every African American
They maybe replace them with Civil War memorials that commemorate the sacrifices of slaves, civilians and soldiers on both sides

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I have 3 Confederate ancestors, one of whom died in one of the first battles (Wilson's Creek) and another who was at Appomattox. I'm neither proud of nor ashamed of them. As you said, we can feel empathy for those men who fought for what they believed was right without condoning or supporting that side.
One of my ancestors was a slave ship captain - he is someone we don't talk about at parties!
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Old 29th February 2020, 06:29 PM   #27
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When will the US acknowledge that the Texas Revolution was all about the ability to have slaves?
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Old 29th February 2020, 06:32 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Lost Cause and Neo-Confederate idiocy.

Is this still a prevalent way of thinking in The South?
//Obviously anecdotal, and from my own personal point of view.//

Sorta kinda.

It's still there, you don't have to look to hard to find those mentalities still still floating around, but from where I've been sitting most of my life more of a one step removed weirdness of a culture starting to buy into their own mythology, with the whole "States Rights" and "Nobody gets to tell me what to think" things becoming self feeding.

It only works if you don't think that hard about it, but that's the thing, they don't think that hard about it.
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Old 29th February 2020, 07:15 PM   #29
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
They maybe replace them with Civil War memorials that commemorate the sacrifices of slaves, civilians and soldiers on both sides.
There are already monuments to the Confederate and Union soldiers together but more would be fine. Kentucky has two.
There are also monuments to the victims of slavery like the one at the United Nations and the Legacy Museum in Alabama. But there could certainly be more.


One of my ancestors was a slave ship captain - he is someone we don't talk about at parties![/quote]

Understandable...we don't talk much about my bigamist grandfather!
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Old 29th February 2020, 07:46 PM   #30
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Yeeehhhhaaaaahhhh!!!!!

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 29th February 2020, 07:48 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Yeeehhhhaaaaahhhh!!!!!

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
You laugh....but there are parts of the South where that is normal. That's why I live in the Pacific Northwest.
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Old 29th February 2020, 08:24 PM   #32
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You laugh....but there are parts of the South where that is normal. That's why I live in the Pacific Northwest.
Was one of my favourite programs as a little kid.

I feel dirty.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 29th February 2020, 08:45 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Was one of my favourite programs as a little kid.

I feel dirty.
You'd have to be a kid to like that show. I always thought it was about as stupid as they come. But I was in my mid-20's when it came out.
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Old 29th February 2020, 09:32 PM   #34
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Apparently Catherine Bach who played Daisy insured her legs for a million dollars.

I myself have awesome legs for a dude but haven't bothered.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 1st March 2020, 12:36 AM   #35
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Apparently Catherine Bach who played Daisy insured her legs for a million dollars.

I myself have awesome legs for a dude but haven't bothered.
Well, that explains you wearing those Daisy Dukes.
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Old 1st March 2020, 03:05 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I still think that the removal of all things Confederate could be a double edged sword - the good part is that their absence removes the confrontational reminders to those whose forebears were oppressed by slavery, but their removal also takes away the actual objects - the overt, visible lessons in history - the ability to point at that statue and say "This is the man who did these things". Slavery, secession and the Civil War are not things to be proud of, but they are part of America's history whether people like it or not, and there is a danger that trying to cleanse it looks more like denying that history than owning and accepting it.

Just in the same way that we must never be allowed to forget what Nazi Germany did in the mid 20th century, so America must never forget what happened in the lead up to and during the Civil War - over 625,000 dead, over 1.6 million wounded is still a greater price than America has paid in any other war. I also believe that, you can express and feel empathy for those grandads and great-grandads who fought on the wrong side of a war, without condoning or supporting that side.
Germany teaches the Holocaust, and teaches the Holocaust, and teaches the Holocaust. They don't put up statues to Hitler.
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Old 1st March 2020, 08:07 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
As long as Part A (removing the symbols, especially the official ones such as Confedrate flags on government buildings) is followed by Part B, making sure that America's true history is properly taught in schools from a young age - 1st grade. Even if they don't understand it fully, start them off by understanding that racism and slavery are bad things right from the get-go.
Again, I doubt that will happen. If anything we are learning more about slavery in history and the segregation than ever before.

I grew up in inner city Philadelphia and learned basic US history along with some details about slavery and the segregation era. Social Studies wise I suspect I had more exposure to African American culture than most folks (who probably stopped with John Henry). We were taught a lot about various AA folklore figures, but since this was, like 4th grade, I don't remember a whole lot, just some fuzzy details (One guy took a potshot at Death, that's about all I remember).

What was glossed over was stuff like what happened with Reconstruction. Its kinda glossed over with a 'North tried, South resisted, North eventually got tired and gave up'. We learned about the mistreatment and lynchings under segregation.

Buuuuut, things like the local White Supremacist coups, the massacres of entire African American communities under the guise of 'race riots' was definitely ignored. I am only learning about these things today...although from the basis of my education about that era it saddens me but does not surprise me.

And speaking of Ken Burns, I was watching his series about the homefront USA during WW2, and one of the regions covered was Mobile, AL, where my Mom grew up. They mentioned more race riots (these were actual riots, but started by white folks) and I have to wonder if it affected her decision to move North. She's gone now so I may never know.
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Old 1st March 2020, 12:26 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Germany teaches the Holocaust, and teaches the Holocaust, and teaches the Holocaust. They don't put up statues to Hitler.
I have never advocated putting up statues nor am I doing so now. Nevertheless, they are there already, and what I am advocating is taking advantage of that fact by using them to teach about what happened and why.

[WITH MY EX-SCHOOLTEACHER'S HAT ON]
If I was a history teacher at a High School in Richmond VA, teaching about Slavery and the Civil War, I would be taking my class for a field trip to Monument Ave, and holding a lesson in the shadow of the Robert E Lee statue. I would explain why it was erected, what the motivations were, why it faces south when most other similar statues face north. I would teach that Lee was a racist, and yet in a letter he wrote in 1856, he called slavery "a moral and political evil". He was anti-slavery but not for the reasons one might think, and yet, in an apparent contradiction, he himself was a slave owner and defended The South against The North's Abolitionist demands to end slavery.

He was also opposed to secession and the formation of the Confederacy, calling it little more than a revolution and a betrayal of both the US Constitution and the Founding Fathers, yet he resigned his commission in the US Army and fought for those very same revolutionaries.

Now some will argue that you can do that without the statue, and you can, but the opportunity to stare into the face of the man who did all this, while you are learning about what he did is a better teaching tool than simply learning about it from a textbook, it in the abstract. Unlike a dry lesson in a classroom, the students will remember such a field trip to learn about the Civil War for the rest of their lives. These kinds of lessons have lasting impact, and that lasting impact means that those lessons stick.
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Old 1st March 2020, 12:47 PM   #39
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I have never advocated putting up statues nor am I doing so now. Nevertheless, they are there already, and what I am advocating is taking advantage of that fact by using them to teach about what happened and why.

[WITH MY EX-SCHOOLTEACHER'S HAT ON]
If I was a history teacher at a High School in Richmond VA, teaching about Slavery and the Civil War, I would be taking my class for a field trip to Monument Ave, and holding a lesson in the shadow of the Robert E Lee statue. I would explain why it was erected, what the motivations were, why it faces south when most other similar statues face north. I would teach that Lee was a racist, and yet in a letter he wrote in 1856, he called slavery "a moral and political evil". He was anti-slavery but not for the reasons one might think, and yet, in an apparent contradiction, he himself was a slave owner and defended The South against The North's Abolitionist demands to end slavery.

He was also opposed to secession and the formation of the Confederacy, calling it little more than a revolution and a betrayal of both the US Constitution and the Founding Fathers, yet he resigned his commission in the US Army and fought for those very same revolutionaries.

Now some will argue that you can do that without the statue, and you can, but the opportunity to stare into the face of the man who did all this, while you are learning about what he did is a better teaching tool than simply learning about it from a textbook, it in the abstract. Unlike a dry lesson in a classroom, the students will remember such a field trip to learn about the Civil War for the rest of their lives. These kinds of lessons have lasting impact, and that lasting impact means that those lessons stick.
As a former history teacher, I can understand your point. Although having a statue for the students to look at is good (visual reinforcements generally are), you have to weigh that against how it affects African Americans. Is that visual more important than the offense it gives to fellow citizens seeing a statues dedicated to people who fought to enslave their people? I don't think so and I doubt you'd find many A-Americans who would think so either.

Yes, Lee was not in favor of secession. He was even offered command of the Union army by Lincoln. But he chose his State over his Country. That cannot be forgotten.
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Old 1st March 2020, 02:16 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I have never advocated putting up statues nor am I doing so now. Nevertheless, they are there already, and what I am advocating is taking advantage of that fact by using them to teach about what happened and why.

[WITH MY EX-SCHOOLTEACHER'S HAT ON]
If I was a history teacher at a High School in Richmond VA, teaching about Slavery and the Civil War, I would be taking my class for a field trip to Monument Ave, and holding a lesson in the shadow of the Robert E Lee statue. I would explain why it was erected, what the motivations were, why it faces south when most other similar statues face north. I would teach that Lee was a racist, and yet in a letter he wrote in 1856, he called slavery "a moral and political evil". He was anti-slavery but not for the reasons one might think, and yet, in an apparent contradiction, he himself was a slave owner and defended The South against The North's Abolitionist demands to end slavery.

He was also opposed to secession and the formation of the Confederacy, calling it little more than a revolution and a betrayal of both the US Constitution and the Founding Fathers, yet he resigned his commission in the US Army and fought for those very same revolutionaries.

Now some will argue that you can do that without the statue, and you can, but the opportunity to stare into the face of the man who did all this, while you are learning about what he did is a better teaching tool than simply learning about it from a textbook, it in the abstract. Unlike a dry lesson in a classroom, the students will remember such a field trip to learn about the Civil War for the rest of their lives. These kinds of lessons have lasting impact, and that lasting impact means that those lessons stick.
There are plenty of venues for documenting and displaying the horrors of the past. Statues in public places are about more than just history, but about veneration. Monuments of confederate figures have a very clear meaning.

There are no good reasons to have statues of confederate leaders in public places. They should not be venerated. Whatever personal heroics or qualities they may have had served a morally abhorrent goal. Let them have their space in a museum as appropriate, but public spaces should be reserved for honorable figures worthy of veneration.
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