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Old 1st March 2020, 03:42 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There are plenty of venues for documenting and displaying the horrors of the past. Statues in public places are about more than just history, but about veneration. Monuments of confederate figures have a very clear meaning.

There are no good reasons to have statues of confederate leaders in public places. They should not be venerated. Whatever personal heroics or qualities they may have had served a morally abhorrent goal. Let them have their space in a museum as appropriate, but public spaces should be reserved for honorable figures worthy of veneration.
In whose eyes? Who decides? Vocal minority or 50% +1? Should reality be the deciding factor or exaggerated memes?
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Old 1st March 2020, 04:19 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There are plenty of venues for documenting and displaying the horrors of the past. Statues in public places are about more than just history, but about veneration. Monuments of confederate figures have a very clear meaning.
I agree with this.

Move them into museums, just don't destroy them all.
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Old 1st March 2020, 04:40 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
In whose eyes? Who decides? Vocal minority or 50% +1? Should reality be the deciding factor or exaggerated memes?
What other public place is dedicated to villains?

Confederates went to war with their countrymen to preserve slavery. There is no sugar coating that fact. They would rather go to war than free their slaves. Their defeat was a moral triumph. They should not be celebrated.

I was in Germany for my honeymoon. There was a museum to Nazism in Munich, and it was not sanguine about the motivations of Nazis. There was no statue of Hitler in a public park or by the courthouse. This seems appropriate.
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Old 1st March 2020, 05:07 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What other public place is dedicated to villains?

Confederates went to war with their countrymen to preserve slavery. There is no sugar coating that fact. They would rather go to war than free their slaves. Their defeat was a moral triumph. They should not be celebrated.

I was in Germany for my honeymoon. There was a museum to Nazism in Munich. There was no statue of Hitler in a public park or by the courthouse. This seems appropriate.
Not only do you not see statues or other displays of Hitler in public, you don't see monuments to Nazi generals either.

The German national anthem was also modified to exclude the infamous first verse made famous under the Nazis which began "Deutschland, Deutschland ber alles / ber alles in der Welt" (Germany, Germany above all / Above all in the world). Although it is the same music, only the third verse is sung.
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Old 1st March 2020, 05:13 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What other public place is dedicated to villains?

Confederates went to war with their countrymen to preserve slavery. There is no sugar coating that fact. They would rather go to war than free their slaves. Their defeat was a moral triumph. They should not be celebrated.

I was in Germany for my honeymoon. There was a museum to Nazism in Munich. There was no statue of Hitler in a public park or by the courthouse. This seems appropriate.
There is little doubt that, had the North not gone very soft on the South for secession and the Civil War, all those generals like Jackson, Lee, Stuart, Forrest, Longstreet etc, would have been tried for treason and most likely executed.
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Old 1st March 2020, 05:33 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There is little doubt that, had the North not gone very soft on the South for secession and the Civil War, all those generals like Jackson, Lee, Stuart, Forrest, Longstreet etc, would have been tried for treason and most likely executed.
Jackson died in 1863 but your point is well taken. Many northerners wanted Jefferson Davis tried for treason as well as the major generals. However, Pres. Johnson pardoned all Confederates of treason in 1868. Lincoln and Johnson realized that punishing the South would not only hinder the healing of the country, but exacerbate it.
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Old 1st March 2020, 05:38 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There is little doubt that, had the North not gone very soft on the South for secession and the Civil War, all those generals like Jackson, Lee, Stuart, Forrest, Longstreet etc, would have been tried for treason and most likely executed.
I don't think there was much bloodthirst for the former confederates. Short of killing every white Southerner, there wasn't really much point in holding the slaveholding South liable for their treason. It was a entire system based on slavery, damn near every white person was implicated. Maybe a biblical "cleanse the land" approach would have been more effective, but genocide is rarely a palatable option.

The real shame of the post-war was the failure of Reconstruction and the return of white supremacy during the Redemption.
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Old 1st March 2020, 05:46 PM   #48
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There's few greater ironies then the fact that most of the Confederate Leaders were against veneration of the Confederacy.

General Lee would probably kick your ass if you he was transported forward in time and saw you defending a statue of General Lee.
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Old 1st March 2020, 06:20 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There's few greater ironies then the fact that most of the Confederate Leaders were against veneration of the Confederacy.

General Lee would probably kick your ass if you he was transported forward in time and saw you defending a statue of General Lee.
True. Lee said this about a Gettysburg memorial in 1869:

Quote:
I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.
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Old 1st March 2020, 08:08 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
True. Lee said this about a Gettysburg memorial in 1869:

Quote:
“I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.”

Of course, not forgetting what Santayana said about the other side of that equation..

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
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Old 1st March 2020, 08:17 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Of course, not forgetting what Santayana said about the other side of that equation..

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
So true...but we don't need statues to remember the past.
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Old 1st March 2020, 08:31 PM   #52
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Having Confederate stuff in the American military is like working for Coca-Cola and putting Pepsi merchandise in your office cubicle.
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Old 1st March 2020, 08:45 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Again, I doubt that will happen. If anything we are learning more about slavery in history and the segregation than ever before.

I grew up in inner city Philadelphia and learned basic US history along with some details about slavery and the segregation era. Social Studies wise I suspect I had more exposure to African American culture than most folks (who probably stopped with John Henry). We were taught a lot about various AA folklore figures, but since this was, like 4th grade, I don't remember a whole lot, just some fuzzy details (One guy took a potshot at Death, that's about all I remember).

What was glossed over was stuff like what happened with Reconstruction. Its kinda glossed over with a 'North tried, South resisted, North eventually got tired and gave up'. We learned about the mistreatment and lynchings under segregation.

Buuuuut, things like the local White Supremacist coups, the massacres of entire African American communities under the guise of 'race riots' was definitely ignored. I am only learning about these things today...although from the basis of my education about that era it saddens me but does not surprise me.


And speaking of Ken Burns, I was watching his series about the homefront USA during WW2, and one of the regions covered was Mobile, AL, where my Mom grew up. They mentioned more race riots (these were actual riots, but started by white folks) and I have to wonder if it affected her decision to move North. She's gone now so I may never know.
This is what a lot of people don't understand. I never knew about the horrors of the reconstruction era and how slavery didn't actually end with the 14th Amendment. How in many ways the conditions for African Americans was worse in the 75 years following their emancipation.

I never learned about this in school. I never leaned it until I was in my 40s when I first opposed reparations. I now believe reparations should be paid.
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Old 1st March 2020, 09:28 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
In whose eyes? Who decides? Vocal minority or 50% +1? Should reality be the deciding factor or exaggerated memes?
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What other public place is dedicated to villains?

Confederates went to war with their countrymen to preserve slavery. There is no sugar coating that fact. They would rather go to war than free their slaves. Their defeat was a moral triumph. They should not be celebrated.

I was in Germany for my honeymoon. There was a museum to Nazism in Munich, and it was not sanguine about the motivations of Nazis. There was no statue of Hitler in a public park or by the courthouse. This seems appropriate.
Instead of going off on a rant about Confederates and Nazis - why not answer the questions I asked? These specific cases seem clear to me and most others - but your statement was a generalization about all statues and all memorials in all public places.

You stated: (P)ublic spaces should be reserved for honorable figures worthy of veneration.

Once again I ask: In whose eyes? Who decides? Vocal minority or 50% +1? Should reality be the deciding factor or exaggerated memes?
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Old 2nd March 2020, 01:18 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Instead of going off on a rant about Confederates and Nazis - why not answer the questions I asked? These specific cases seem clear to me and most others - but your statement was a generalization about all statues and all memorials in all public places.

You stated: (P)ublic spaces should be reserved for honorable figures worthy of veneration.

Once again I ask: In whose eyes? Who decides? Vocal minority or 50% +1? Should reality be the deciding factor or exaggerated memes?
See, here is the thing. Its your type of reaction, and your views that make me hesitant to air my opinions about this, because there is always the risk that they will be misunderstood, and that my doing so will appear to give licence to views like yours and those who hold them... So let me be clear.

The military and the political leaders of the Confederacy were outright racists who went to war with their own people in order to support and defend their continued practice of an unspeakable evil - the enslavement of a group of people purely based on the colour of their skin. Those who fought on the side of that evil should not ever be venerated, memorialised or held up as examples of decency in any way shape or form. That is not a decision that should ever need making - it should just be a self-evident fact in any civilised, moral society no matter whose eyes it is viewed through.

The reasons for those memorials and statues being erected were morally bankrupt at best; racist at worst. My main.. no my only concern regarding their wholesale removal is the loss of an opportunity for teaching lessons about the evils of slavery and the impropriety of civil war. I can think of nothing more fitting in a case like this, than to take the objects that were erected to venerate the defenders of slavery, and to then use them to attack the very people they are supposed to venerate, and the evil that they tried to defend.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 02:52 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Jackson died in 1863 but your point is well taken. Many northerners wanted Jefferson Davis tried for treason as well as the major generals. However, Pres. Johnson pardoned all Confederates of treason in 1868. Lincoln and Johnson realized that punishing the South would not only hinder the healing of the country, but exacerbate it.
I would use the word "theorized" rather than "realized" there.

It's certainly clear now that pardoning all of the Confederates and allowing them to put up their statues may as well have been spitting in the wind because from a cultural standpoint, there was no healing anyway. There was no learning and moving on. It was nothing but a license to openly, publicly nurse a grudge for over a hundred and fifty years, under the weak guise of "southern heritage". And in the meantime they were allowed to take control of history education and the zeitgeist, revising it and obfuscating the uncomfortable facts to better suit their post-hoc hero-fantasy that it "wasn't about slavery"; a particularly noxious stain that even today is proving stubbornly difficult to erase.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 05:12 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I have never advocated putting up statues nor am I doing so now. Nevertheless, they are there already, and what I am advocating is taking advantage of that fact by using them to teach about what happened and why.

[WITH MY EX-SCHOOLTEACHER'S HAT ON]
If I was a history teacher at a High School in Richmond VA, teaching about Slavery and the Civil War, I would be taking my class for a field trip to Monument Ave, and holding a lesson in the shadow of the Robert E Lee statue. I would explain why it was erected, what the motivations were, why it faces south when most other similar statues face north. I would teach that Lee was a racist, and yet in a letter he wrote in 1856, he called slavery "a moral and political evil". He was anti-slavery but not for the reasons one might think, and yet, in an apparent contradiction, he himself was a slave owner and defended The South against The North's Abolitionist demands to end slavery.
He was not against slavery, it was a burden that white men would have to bear to civilize the negro after all. Please stop the BS about making Lee admirable in some way for that racist crap.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 05:14 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I agree with this.

Move them into museums, just don't destroy them all.
Why would a museum want them? They are not that artistically interesting and there are better ways to teach history than massive statues.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 05:15 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Instead of going off on a rant about Confederates and Nazis - why not answer the questions I asked? These specific cases seem clear to me and most others - but your statement was a generalization about all statues and all memorials in all public places.

You stated: (P)ublic spaces should be reserved for honorable figures worthy of veneration.

Once again I ask: In whose eyes? Who decides? Vocal minority or 50% +1? Should reality be the deciding factor or exaggerated memes?
Depends on the context. For the scenario in the OP, it's totally appropriate for the commanding general to just order their removal.

Most of these statue removal controversies I am aware of involve localities that wish to remove the statues from their public places and cannot do so because they are pre-empted by state law. Virginia is one such state, though this may become a moot point soon as the new Democratic legislature is re-writing the law and allowing local control.

Elected bodies should make these decisions, as they are the best representation of the people. Usually the problem is that these Southern states have entrenched special protections into the law the prevent their removal, even when there is clear directive from the people and their representatives. As in the VA case, these barriers are not insurmountable, but they do slow the process of removal.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 05:16 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Of course, not forgetting what Santayana said about the other side of that equation..

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
Which is why we need Hitler statues in germany and all over the world in public spaces. You should start that fund raising campaign.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 06:21 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Once again I ask: In whose eyes? Who decides? Vocal minority or 50% +1? Should reality be the deciding factor or exaggerated memes?
In the eyes of people who aren't jerking off long dead racist traitors over how great they are and how awesome it is that statues of them remind those uppity color'd folk to know their place.
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Old 9th March 2020, 03:55 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Instead of going off on a rant about Confederates and Nazis - why not answer the questions I asked? These specific cases seem clear to me and most others - but your statement was a generalization about all statues and all memorials in all public places.

You stated: (P)ublic spaces should be reserved for honorable figures worthy of veneration.

Once again I ask: In whose eyes? Who decides? Vocal minority or 50% +1? Should reality be the deciding factor or exaggerated memes?
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
See, here is the thing. Its your type of reaction, and your views that make me hesitant to air my opinions about this, because there is always the risk that they will be misunderstood, and that my doing so will appear to give licence to views like yours and those who hold them... So let me be clear.

The military and the political leaders of the Confederacy were outright racists who went to war with their own people in order to support and defend their continued practice of an unspeakable evil - the enslavement of a group of people purely based on the colour of their skin. Those who fought on the side of that evil should not ever be venerated, memorialised or held up as examples of decency in any way shape or form. That is not a decision that should ever need making - it should just be a self-evident fact in any civilised, moral society no matter whose eyes it is viewed through.

The reasons for those memorials and statues being erected were morally bankrupt at best; racist at worst. My main.. no my only concern regarding their wholesale removal is the loss of an opportunity for teaching lessons about the evils of slavery and the impropriety of civil war. I can think of nothing more fitting in a case like this, than to take the objects that were erected to venerate the defenders of slavery, and to then use them to attack the very people they are supposed to venerate, and the evil that they tried to defend.
NOTE TO SMART COOKY AND OTHERS: Please read for comprehension and think about what is actually being posted before going off on a high horse rant presuming to lecture someone from what you consider a superior moral position!

If you had actually read what I wrote in my post(s) you would have discovered I agreed that Nazis and Confederates are bad. Tear down the statues and memorials to those racist swine and salt the ground - the sooner the better!

I had a lot of teachers that were far too concerned about how they could score points and show their superiority that they didn't bother to listen to their student's actual words before they condescendingly regurgutated their pompous bile. (Fortunately - I had enough good teachers/professors that I was able to get my graduate degree despite the incredibly useless and inept teachers that abound in the world).

Once again: Nazis and Confederates = BAD! We agree on that. BUT, I was responding to a generalization: (P)ublic spaces should be reserved for honorable figures worthy of veneration.

Once again I ask in relation to the above generalization: In whose eyes? Who decides? Vocal minority or 50% +1? Should reality be the deciding factor or exaggerated memes?

I can find dissenters around the world who look at popular statues or memorials in their own countries and cities and towns and claim that they should be torn down because they do not meet the "standards" that these individuals hold. A lot of times they are just rabble rousers looking to score some political points or just interested in creating a nuisance.

Case in point: In my province in Canada - we have a number of vocal First Nations people who decided that Justice Matthew Baillie Begbie was somehow a racist pig and his statue should be removed from its rightful place in New Westminster BC.
That is a complete and utter rewrite of history as the record shows that he was favorable to the First Nation's plight long before anyone else was and many Europeans in British Columbia complained that he was far too lenient. Yet, a very vocal minority whose claimed facts were demonstrably false were able to have his statue removed against the wishes of the majority.

So, my question remains - given the statement: (P)ublic spaces should be reserved for honorable figures worthy of veneration. In whose eyes? Who decides? Vocal minority or 50% +1? Should reality be the deciding factor or exaggerated memes?
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Old 9th March 2020, 03:59 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
In the eyes of people who aren't jerking off long dead racist traitors over how great they are and how awesome it is that statues of them remind those uppity color'd folk to know their place.


See my post directly above.

If people want - I will type slower if it will aid in comprehension.
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Old 9th March 2020, 04:50 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
NOTE TO SMART COOKY AND OTHERS: Please read for comprehension and think about what is actually being posted before going off on a high horse rant presuming to lecture someone from what you consider a superior moral position!

If you had actually read what I wrote in my post(s) you would have discovered I agreed that Nazis and Confederates are bad. Tear down the statues and memorials to those racist swine and salt the ground - the sooner the better!

I had a lot of teachers that were far too concerned about how they could score points and show their superiority that they didn't bother to listen to their student's actual words before they condescendingly regurgutated their pompous bile. (Fortunately - I had enough good teachers/professors that I was able to get my graduate degree despite the incredibly useless and inept teachers that abound in the world).

Once again: Nazis and Confederates = BAD! We agree on that. BUT, I was responding to a generalization: (P)ublic spaces should be reserved for honorable figures worthy of veneration.

Once again I ask in relation to the above generalization: In whose eyes? Who decides? Vocal minority or 50% +1? Should reality be the deciding factor or exaggerated memes?

I can find dissenters around the world who look at popular statues or memorials in their own countries and cities and towns and claim that they should be torn down because they do not meet the "standards" that these individuals hold. A lot of times they are just rabble rousers looking to score some political points or just interested in creating a nuisance.

Case in point: In my province in Canada - we have a number of vocal First Nations people who decided that Justice Matthew Baillie Begbie was somehow a racist pig and his statue should be removed from its rightful place in New Westminster BC.
That is a complete and utter rewrite of history as the record shows that he was favorable to the First Nation's plight long before anyone else was and many Europeans in British Columbia complained that he was far too lenient. Yet, a very vocal minority whose claimed facts were demonstrably false were able to have his statue removed against the wishes of the majority.

So, my question remains - given the statement: (P)ublic spaces should be reserved for honorable figures worthy of veneration. In whose eyes? Who decides? Vocal minority or 50% +1? Should reality be the deciding factor or exaggerated memes?
In many cases in the South, as was often the case with their institutionalized white supremacy, a vocal minority is the reason why these statues cannot be removed.

There are several examples where local elected officials want these statues gone. They represent a majority will of the people. They cannot do so because state laws have been written in such a way to grant them special protections.

This is just the latest example in which Southern states entrench minority rule into law.

I don't really even understand your question. A vocal minority can attempt to convince or harangue the majority into action. Sometimes they are successful, sometimes not. Such is the nature of political discourse.
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Old 9th March 2020, 05:44 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
So, my question remains - given the statement: (P)ublic spaces should be reserved for honorable figures worthy of veneration. In whose eyes? Who decides? Vocal minority or 50% +1? Should reality be the deciding factor or exaggerated memes?

That was a lot of words to go "Racism is okay as long as it is popular."
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Old 9th March 2020, 06:05 AM   #66
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I'm still trying to wrap my head around Confederate Statues being racist being an "exaggerated meme" or what exactly an "exaggerated meme" is.

Perhaps someone would be ever so kind as to "type slower" to "aid in my comprehension."
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Old 9th March 2020, 07:05 AM   #67
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I don't think it's unreasonable to ask by what standards what is and is not determined to be acceptable should be judged when it comes to matters of law and public policy.

I definitely do think it's unreasonable to excise someone's anti-racism statements in order to accuse them of racism.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:48 AM   #68
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Instead of subjective standards that require someone to make a decision, we can have objective standards.

Here's a good one: No memorials for traitors.
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Old 9th March 2020, 09:01 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask by what standards what is and is not determined to be acceptable should be judged when it comes to matters of law and public policy.

I definitely do think it's unreasonable to excise someone's anti-racism statements in order to accuse them of racism.
Bravo.

But you will get bored with pointing that out.
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Old 9th March 2020, 09:12 AM   #70
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I can't think of any reasonable standard that would result in the confederate statues staying up.

These statues depict dishonorable figures, glorify a dishonorable cause, constructed by people with dishonorable intentions, were poorly perceived by large segments of the population at the time of commissioning, and remain poorly perceived by large segments of the population today.
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Old 10th March 2020, 05:44 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Instead of subjective standards that require someone to make a decision, we can have objective standards.

Here's a good one: No memorials for traitors.
What about funny ones, like the one of Benedict Arnold's severed leg?
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Old 10th March 2020, 11:54 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What about funny ones, like the one of Benedict Arnold's severed leg?
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Old 11th March 2020, 01:28 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Instead of subjective standards that require someone to make a decision, we can have objective standards.

Here's a good one: No memorials for traitors.
But whose traitors? The US has both a capital city and state named after a slave owning traitor who rose up in rebellion against his lawful King.

The confederate generals are only traitors because they lost. Washington is only a hero because he won. Benedict Arnold was a brave patriot.

Wellington would now be regarded as a war criminal, (for allowing the sacking of a city). Yet he is commemorated in having boots named after him and a city. Nelson also has a city, probably less of a war criminal but not entirely sound in his family life. Both indirectly contributed to the end of slavery as abolition was one of the terms of the peace treaty following the battle of Waterloo. (Also of course the requirement to end slavery was a requirement of the British that the US government signed up to in the peace treaty following the war of 1812.)

So the first answer seems to be don't build statues to losers.

The much more difficult question is what are the limits to commemorating winners? Should I stop wearing Wellingtons and revert to rubber boots?
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Old 11th March 2020, 03:47 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post

So, my question remains - given the statement: (P)ublic spaces should be reserved for honorable figures worthy of veneration. In whose eyes? Who decides? Vocal minority or 50% +1? Should reality be the deciding factor or exaggerated memes?

Sometimes this question is tricky.

In this instance, you're fortunate to have had it answered already. It took four years and 620,000 lives.

The answer to the question you're asking is: "The winners"
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Old 11th March 2020, 05:17 AM   #75
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So foreign peeps.

Does any other country have anything like this? Do descendants of your past racist traitor uprisings pitch hissy fits about how they can't put statues up about how great it was?
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Old 11th March 2020, 05:21 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Sometimes this question is tricky.

In this instance, you're fortunate to have had it answered already. It took four years and 620,000 lives.

The answer to the question you're asking is: "The winners"
Does that mean it's okay to put up statues to celebrate all those successful genocidal campaigns the US ran against Native Americans? After all, we won.
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Old 11th March 2020, 05:23 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Does that mean it's okay to put up statues to celebrate all those successful genocidal campaigns the US ran against Native Americans? After all, we won.
I don't think there are many statues of genocidal colonizers on lands that are still controlled by Native Americans.

I support Confederates putting up as many statues as they like in their own territory. They're going to need a time machine to accomplish this.
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Old 11th March 2020, 05:26 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't think there are many statues of genocidal colonizers on lands that are still controlled by Native Americans.
You mean the reservations we forced them onto? But we can put up Custer et al statues all over the lands we stole from them?
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Old 11th March 2020, 05:26 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So foreign peeps.

Does any other country have anything like this? Do descendants of your past racist traitor uprisings pitch hissy fits about how they can't put statues up about how great it was?
Extracting meaning from your sarcasm, yes but not been too successful so far.

https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...-oriel-college

But there are a lot of "our" ex colonies that have removed lots of reminders of our occupation.
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Old 11th March 2020, 05:28 AM   #80
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I think something that is a little bit different here is that it appears from what I've read thanks to threads like this that many of these statues were not erected soon after the civil war but as part of the campaigns to stop black Americans gaining the rights white Americans already enjoyed.
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