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Old 11th March 2020, 05:30 AM   #81
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You mean the reservations we forced them onto? But we can put up Custer et al statues all over the lands we stole from them?
Is there any point to your diversion? I'd be happy to see rosy memorials of the "settling" of the country removed or recontextualized. I have no love of Custer either.

Yes, the colonization of the Americas was a brutal crime against humanity. At least you don't see Native American politicians advocating for statues to their oppressors on their public lands.

The Southern States build memorials to the defenders of slavery for the purpose of reminding the descendants of slaves that they are politically dis-empowered. That was always the purpose of these statues.
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Old 11th March 2020, 05:35 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Is there any point to your diversion?

Yes, the colonization of the Americas was a brutal crime against humanity. At least you don't see Native American politicians advocating for statues to their oppressors on their public lands.

The Southern States build memorials to the defenders of slavery for the purpose of reminding the descendants of slaves that they are politically dis-empowered. That was always the purpose of these statues.
My point was to object to the notion that "the winners" are morally in the right to put up statues simply because their group emerged victorious.
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Old 11th March 2020, 05:40 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think something that is a little bit different here is that it appears from what I've read thanks to threads like this that many of these statues were not erected soon after the civil war but as part of the campaigns to stop black Americans gaining the rights white Americans already enjoyed.
That is correct. The vast majority of the statues were erected in the early 1900's when Jim Crow formalized a post-slavery form of white supremacy into law.

There was a smaller boom of Confederate nostalgia during the 1950-60's civil rights era.

These statues were always about white supremacy.

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54426...emacist-future
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Old 11th March 2020, 05:42 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Does that mean it's okay to put up statues to celebrate all those successful genocidal campaigns the US ran against Native Americans? After all, we won.

It totally does, yes.

You could take a whistle stop tour round the US visiting each one, starting with those bloody great heads on the ancient, sacred, native mountain and keep going.


I'm not saying it's right. I'm telling him which method is used to solve the stated dillema.
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Old 11th March 2020, 06:10 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
My point was to object to the notion that "the winners" are morally in the right to put up statues simply because their group emerged victorious.
Although I get why people use it, "Winners" is a bad way to look at it, it's not wrong per se so I'm not like disagreeing with it, but it's an oversimplified and subtly off way of looking at and I think it gives the wrong impression.

The CSA isn't some country that we defeated and are now occupying/subjecting. We aren't... well there's no metaphor that really works and wouldn't hijack the discussion so put in whatever current "Country occupying another country" example works best for you.

The South didn't just lose, it failed to establish its own existence. The Confederate States of America don't exist to have an opinion about things, so... it doesn't get to have an opinion about things. "The South" now isn't the Confederacy despite opinions to the otherwise.

I've said it before. The Confederate States of America is fully within its rights to put up all the statues it wants to its heroes inside the territory it currently hold which is, let me check, none. When that situation changes, they can let me know and we'll revisit the idea.

And even beyond that the comparison doesn't work.

People didn't leave England and form a new country for the specific purpose of being allowed to kill Native Americans.

When the United States of America declared its independence it didn't create a Constitution that literally word for word identical to the Constitution of England (Or the Magna Carta or... you know what I mean) except for "We consider the right to kill Indians of like super clear and paramount importance."

And we didn't start putting statues of... Custer and Andrew Jackson up in large numbers only after Native Americans started a Civil Rights movement.

The Confederacy / Confederate Revisionists did all of those things.

That's the difference. You take the racism out of the Confederacy and there's nothing there. You can't celebrate one without celebrating the other.
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Old 11th March 2020, 06:20 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Although I get why people use it, "Winners" is a bad way to look at it, it's not wrong per se so I'm like disagreeing with it, but it's an oversimplified and subtly off way of looking at and I think it gives the wrong impression.

The CSA isn't some country that we defeated and are now occupying/subjecting. We aren't... well there's no metaphor that really works and wouldn't hijack the discussion so put in whatever current "Country occupying another country" example works best for you.

The South didn't just lose, it failed to establish its own existence. The Confederate States of America don't exist to have an opinion about things, so... it doesn't get to have an opinion about things. "The South" now isn't the Confederacy despite opinions to the otherwise.

I've said it before. The Confederate States of America is fully within its rights to put up all the statues it wants to its heroes inside the territory it currently hold which is, let me check, none. When that situation changes, they can let me know and we'll revisit the idea.

And even beyond that the comparison doesn't work.

People didn't leave England and form a new country for the specific purpose of being allowed to kill Native Americans.

When the United States of America declared its independence it didn't create a Constitution that literally word for word identical to the Constitution of England (Or the Magna Carta or... you know what I mean) except for "We consider the right to kill Indians of like super clear and paramount importance."

And we didn't start putting statues of... Custer and Andrew Jackson up in large numbers only after Native Americans started a Civil Rights movement.

The Confederacy / Confederate Revisionists did all of those things.

That's the difference. You take the racism out of the Confederacy and there's nothing there. You can't celebrate one without celebrating the other.
I didn't say otherwise. I'm not arguing that the south should be able to put up Confederate statues uncriticized. I'm arguing that "might makes right" doesn't justify anybody putting up statues.

Personally I think statues should be of mythological and fictional figures instead of historical ones. Less problematic and far more artistic. Which is more interesting to look at: George Washington in a periwig or Apollo in a laurel wreath (and nothing else)?
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Old 11th March 2020, 06:55 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I didn't say otherwise. I'm not arguing that the south should be able to put up Confederate statues uncriticized. I'm arguing that "might makes right" doesn't justify anybody putting up statues.
I don't disagree. I just think, speaking for myself and no one else, that the winner/loser narrative while admittedly imperfect doesn't necessarily mean that.

Quote:
Personally I think statues should be of mythological and fictional figures instead of historical ones. Less problematic and far more artistic. Which is more interesting to look at: George Washington in a periwig or Apollo in a laurel wreath (and nothing else)?
"No Statues of Anyone" is a rather unrealistic goal methinks.

"Problematic" isn't... a thing. It's made up problem useful for handwringing "where the line is" when someone wants to trim your hair and someone else wants to cut your head off, but it's not really a thing.

Why a country like America might want to venerate someone like George Washington and not venerate someone like Jefferson Davis is not exactly a philosophical question for the ages. It's pretty simple.
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Old 11th March 2020, 01:20 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So foreign peeps.

Does any other country have anything like this? Do descendants of your past racist traitor uprisings pitch hissy fits about how they can't put statues up about how great it was?
Certainly given his near genocidal behaviour in Ireland commemorating Cromwell is problematic in the UK. There have been arguments about his statue. The removal and renaming of monuments / buildings that were named after people who made money out of slave trading / owning certainly is happening in the UK.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-39063133
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Old 12th March 2020, 06:18 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You mean the reservations we forced them onto? But we can put up Custer et al statues all over the lands we stole from them?
Custer was a narcissistic ass who got himself and his men killed. He shouldn't have any statues to him, but only of him. At the same time, there should be an equal statue of Sitting Bull with both simply commemorating the battle itself at the battle ground site.

ETA: corrected for confusing sentence structure.

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Old 12th March 2020, 06:34 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Custer was a narcissistic ass who got himself and his men killed. He shouldn't have any statues to him, but only of him. At the same time, there should be an equal statue of Sitting Bull with both simply commemorating the battle itself at the battle ground site.

ETA: corrected for confusing sentence structure.
Perhaps neither. Statues are hardly the most efficient or practical means of conveying information or commemorating something. Text works so much better.
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Old 12th March 2020, 06:39 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Perhaps neither. Statues are hardly the most efficient or practical means of conveying information or commemorating something. Text works so much better.
I'd have problem with no statues. I haven't been to the Battleground site since the mid 1960's when I was a child. I thought I remembered a statue of Custer but now that I think about it, I'm not sure of that at all. I do remember the fence surrounding the hill where so many of the soldiers are buried.
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Old 12th March 2020, 06:51 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I'd have problem with no statues. I haven't been to the Battleground site since the mid 1960's when I was a child. I thought I remembered a statue of Custer but now that I think about it, I'm not sure of that at all. I do remember the fence surrounding the hill where so many of the soldiers are buried.
I've been to dozens and dozens, if not hundreds, of battlefield parks and monuments. (My dad had great interest in history and little interest in providing vacations children would be interested in.) Statues are pointless: they all look the same, and you don't learn anything from them except that some sculptors were overpaid. What stands out is the unique, like the panoramic painting at Gettyburg, or the heatstroke you get from walking King's Mountain in July. Statues are ornaments, they're not books or even a volunteer tour guide being corrected on the facts by my father while I think about all the other kids who get to go to the beach or Disney or something for their vacations. The real tragedy of war is that it had a negative impact on my childhood centuries after the fact.
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Old 12th March 2020, 07:09 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I've been to dozens and dozens, if not hundreds, of battlefield parks and monuments. (My dad had great interest in history and little interest in providing vacations children would be interested in.) Statues are pointless: they all look the same, and you don't learn anything from them except that some sculptors were overpaid. What stands out is the unique, like the panoramic painting at Gettyburg, or the heatstroke you get from walking King's Mountain in July. Statues are ornaments, they're not books or even a volunteer tour guide being corrected on the facts by my father while I think about all the other kids who get to go to the beach or Disney or something for their vacations. The real tragedy of war is that it had a negative impact on my childhood centuries after the fact.
I agree with the highlighted. Personally, I was a history nut even as a kid and enjoyed going to historic sites. But, I have to admit, living 30 min. from Disneyland after age 13 was rather nice. The now defunct "Adventure Thru Inner Space" was the best make out place in the park.
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Old 12th March 2020, 11:04 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I agree with the highlighted. Personally, I was a history nut even as a kid and enjoyed going to historic sites. But, I have to admit, living 30 min. from Disneyland after age 13 was rather nice. The now defunct "Adventure Thru Inner Space" was the best make out place in the park.

Geez Stacy, only a girl could be posting in a history thread about the Civil War, and be talking about Disneyland and making out as a teenager!!
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Old 13th March 2020, 05:48 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Geez Stacy, only a girl could be posting in a history thread about the Civil War, and be talking about Disneyland and making out as a teenager!!
I thought about working in a great pot roast recipe but thought better of it. I'm saving that for a thread about WWII.
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Old 13th March 2020, 06:40 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I agree with the highlighted. Personally, I was a history nut even as a kid and enjoyed going to historic sites. But, I have to admit, living 30 min. from Disneyland after age 13 was rather nice. The now defunct "Adventure Thru Inner Space" was the best make out place in the park.
Monsanto!
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Old 13th March 2020, 07:28 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by carrps View Post
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